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JackbeNimble
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2003 - 10:40 pm: |       |
Hello,
I understand that during the time the killings took place there were hundreds of letters received. I have unfortunately seen only the most often sited letters. I was wondering if there is anyone who comes to this site that has a large collection of letters from Jack the ripper? I would very much like to view the collection of letters so that I could better have an understanding of whether these letters are really the work of Jack the ripper or just a hoax. You may email me at scrapper0303@aol.com. Thank you, Melanie
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Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 293
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 10:37 am: | |
Melanie,
Check out the book From Hell. It has photographs of many of the letters and discusses them in detail.
Andy S.
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RobertParkinson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 12:51 am: | |
This probably sounds like drawing a very long bow but I feel that the Dear Boss and Saucy Jacky postcards have a unique relation to each other and I've always thought they were written by the murderer. In the Dear Boss letter the writer says 'the next job I do I shall clip the ladys' ears off and send them to the police officers'. The 'NEXT JOB' the ripper did after sending this letter was the murder of Elizabeth Stride, and as the postcard explained 'number one squealed a bit, couldn't finish straight off, had not the time to get ears for police'.
This shows the letter writer to be a man of his words, the cuts on Eddowes' ears being a red herring as she was the 2nd next job (so to speak) after the Dear Boss letter was sent. If this is correct it also shows a very grisly and macabre sense of humour, which Jack must have had. |
l
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, May 23, 2004 - 11:39 pm: | |
what are the order of the letters on this site |
James Eric Carter
Sergeant
Username: Archangel261973
Post Number: 19
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 1:57 pm: | |
I agree with Robert, I've had a feeling for a long time that the "Dear Boss" an "Saucy Jack" were done by the murderer. They like the murders themselves had a boldness to them that is hard to ignore. Now I know that the general thought is that these are fakes and that the only letter that might be true is the Lusk letter, but have a look at the letter sent Oct. 6 (just a few days after the dear boss and saucy jack writings) to a possible witness, the style and wording is alike, the feel and flow of the letter is very similar as well. The Lusk letter tried to hard, I don't give that one much credance. It seems to me that if Jack wrote to the press or police that he wouldn't really give them anything and that there would be a sense of boldness to it like there was noway they could stop him, it would show i the writing as it did in the murders. Not unlike the Zodiac in San Fransico.
Eric |
Thomas C. Wescott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 51
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 1:10 am: | |
Eric,
But unlike the Ripper letters, Zodiac went out of his way to assure the press, police and public that he was indeed the killer they were seeking: he provided intricate details of the murders and went so far as to include portions of his 5th victim's clothing (the cab driver, Paul Stein). The 'Dear Boss' letter & postcard did no such thing, and the kidney that accompanied the 'From hell' letter was quite likely not Eddowes'.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Jake Rogers
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 12:33 pm: | |
Melanie, as far as I know a large amount of the ripper letters are kept in the public records office in london. I may be wrong but its worth finding out. Has anyone else read the patricia cornwall book on jack the ripper? It provides an amazing forensic aspect on the ripper letters. Including one of the best killer theories ive heard since Roslyn D'onston was put forward in "Jack The Rippers Black Magic Rituals", which is also an astounding book. |
James Eric Carter
Sergeant
Username: Archangel261973
Post Number: 21
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 3:35 pm: | |
If you read the Zodiac letter there is a similar feel to them in the writings themselves not the words or even the messages sent "The Boss" letter and "Saucy Jack" postcard had an organized feel to them much like the Zodiac the "From Hell" letter was not. As far as the kidney goes it was likely not from Eddowes, I think that someone had a beef with Lusk and used the Ripper scare to send him the letter.
Eric |
James Eric Carter
Sergeant
Username: Archangel261973
Post Number: 22
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 3:51 pm: | |
Melanie,
The best and easiest way to get the Ripper letters is the book "Letters From Hell" by Stewart P. Evens and Keith Skinner ISBN 0750925493 list price 20.00 UK and 26.95 US you might be able to get it for less off ebay, half.com or addall.com. I've not read all of the book yet but it has all the letters in it at least transcripts of all of them, they also look at some of the writings of some of the suspects in the case. If you really want all the letters this is a good investment to have them all in one hardcover book.
Eric |
Busy Beaver
Sergeant
Username: Busy
Post Number: 13
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 5:30 pm: | |
I too believe that the Dear Boss and Saucy Jack letters were written by the Ripper, for the same reasons as described by Eric. The Ripper was quite excited by the fact that he had not been caught and decided that he would taunt the police. Reading between the lines the Ripper is saying I'm too smart for you Mr Policeman (or in this case the Keystone cops) come and get me. Also the style of the letters, I think, suggest that the Ripper knew he could always stay one step ahead of the police, like he had some kind of inside information.
Busy Beaver |
Thomas C. Wescott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 53
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 8:27 pm: | |
James,
It's no surprise that the Zodiac letters ring a bit of the 'Dear Boss' letters. The Zodiac came about in the late 60's, following not only an occult revival, but also a Jack the Ripper revival. There's indications that he was familiar, and perhaps influenced by, the works of Aleister Crowley, who attributed the Ripper murders to Robert D'Onston Stephenson. Somebody with a bent to kill and an interest in black magic might want to emulate such a person, thus taking on a persona similar to the Ripper's, and doing what he believed the Ripper had done. Same goes with Son of Sam, who were also occult murderers writing letters that waxed of Jack the Ripper's.
Having said that, it's very possible that D'Onston WAS Jack the Ripper (though Crowley's writings on him are garbage), and that he penned the 'Dear Boss' letter, but that's another story.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Thomas C. Wescott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 55
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 9:00 pm: | |
James and Busy Beaver,
Just so you guys know that I'm not trying to bust your balls over the letters, if you're interested, you might want to check out an article I wrote for Ripperologist, which can now be found here on the Casebook in the 'Dissertations' section, entitled 'Thomas Bulling and the Myth of the London Journalist'. Paul Begg totally changed my article around before publishing it and, unfortunately, that's the version on this site, but the point is still made, and that is IT'S NEVER BEEN PROVEN THAT BULLING WROTE THE 'DEAR BOSS' LETTER. Yet, people seem to accept it as fact. It would appear that, long before Bulling, D'Onston was suspected of having written the 'Dear Boss' and 'Saucy Jacky' missives, though that isn't brought up in the article.
However, despite one's personal bias, I don't see how the letters can make or break the case for a suspect.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
James Eric Carter
Sergeant
Username: Archangel261973
Post Number: 23
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 12:32 am: | |
Tom,
I'm on your side I've never bought into the fact that Bulling wrote the Dear Boss and Saucy Jack letters. I believe that the idea that it was him grew out of some constable saw his (Bulling's) note attached to the letter and if you look at the note and the letters its close and in passing you could mistake it for the writing in the letters. And As I've said before with out known writings from the major suspects to compare the writings too you can prove nothing, also you would have to decide which letters that came from "Jack" are real.
I don't think that Jack was a occult murderer, nither the sceens or letters that are most likly from Jack rang of occult. What I think is Jack had a thing for "working girls" and killed them, ten because there was so much hype over them that he wrote a few letters to throw gas on the fire. I really don't think he had a reason for the murders it was a game for him and the letters were just his next move.
Eric |
James Eric Carter
Sergeant
Username: Archangel261973
Post Number: 24
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 12:44 am: | |
Busy Beaver,
I don't think Jack had inside info but, I do think that he was ready to commit the murders before he got started. If you read about serial killers they generally fall into two types organized and disorganized and sometimes a combination of the two. I think Jack was in this last type, he was oranized in that he knew the area where the police were, how long it would take them to get to where he is, and the right tpye of "spot" for the kill. He was disorganized in the choosing of his victim, the only thing was they had to be prostitutes. He stayed ahead of them because of their predictability.
Eric |
Thomas C. Wescott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 62
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 7:40 pm: | |
James,
The 'disorganized/organized' serial killer theory really doesn't apply to Jack, or a killer of any era prior to the automobile. As for the handwriting of the letters, a comparison to 'Dear Boss' would be moot as we know it to have been a forced, falsified style, which is why the main body of the letter doesn't match the postscript, though the post script matches the 'Saucy Jacky' postcard. I would venture to say that the postcard handwriting isn't 'dead on' with the writer's, but much closer in style to his real hand than is the 'Dear Boss' letter.
As for Bulling, I'm not stating with conviction that he didn't write the 'Dear Boss' letter, just that people take it for granted (due to the Littlechild letter) even though there's no real evidence to suggest it, and apparently never has been.
As for the Jack/occult murderer theory, you must remember that the first four victims form a perfect cross in their locations, signs of ritualism are prevelant in the cases of Chapman, Eddowes and Kelly, and the murders were committed in a very, very short amount of time; very rare for a serial killer unless the murders are preplanned. There's much more, but I've limited time to post write now. Would love to discuss this stuff further with you, though.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
James Eric Carter
Sergeant
Username: Archangel261973
Post Number: 25
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 11:06 pm: | |
Tom,
I don't really think that you can follow the dots with Jack, it would seem that he allowed his victims to choose the location for their fun. I wouldn't put to much into the pattern.
As far as organized/disorganized goes, it applies to the psychological make-up of the killer. Jack was organized in that he planned out the murdures in advance because of the time he would have to complete the job before the constables got back to that point. And if we say that the boss and saucy messages, then we see that he was planning the murders in advance. And with the rituals most serial killers have a ritual that they go through, part of the reason he had two in one night, he never got to relieve himself on the first one and had to finish. His disorganization comes in with the choice of victims as long as the were prostitutes it was fine, then final murder site.
With the letter and postcard, the first I think was written days after the event and he forced himself back into it to write the letter and the postcard was written soon after the killing and he was still "in the zone". Jack's writing may not match the killers "real" hand at all. I can't remember which serial killer it was or where I read about it but, the wife of the killer didn't know the writing of her husband when he was in his zone. So, the whole thing with the writing will likely never go anywhere.
I also read your artical 'Thomas Bulling and the Myth of the London Journalist' if you still have the original I'd like to read it.
Eric |
Thomas C. Wescott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 65
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 26, 2004 - 11:36 pm: | |
Eric,
You write: "...it would seem that he allowed his victims to choose the location for their fun. I wouldn't put to much into the pattern." Then, you blatantly contradict yourself in the following paragraph with, "Jack was organized in that he planned out the murdures in advance because of the time he would have to complete the job before the constables got back to that point."
How is it possible that the 'Cross over Whitechapel' was coincidence, on account of the victim's being the leader, but at the same time the Ripper evaded the police by pre-planning and choosing his locations? Now, if the Ripper DID, as you suggest in the second paragraph (and contradict in the first), choose the sites in advance, then it seems silly to suggest that he wasn't aware he was forming a near-perfect cross. So, following your line of reasoning that the killer chose the sites in advance, and formed a cross, what was his motivation for doing so? Who, but a black magician, would have motive to pervert a sacred symbol?
The murderer you're referring to whose wife didn't recognize his handwriting in the papers is Peter Kurten, a.k.a. the 'Dusseldorf Ripper', or 'Dusseldorf Vampire'. And he was disguising his handwriting intentionally.
I'm flattered you took the time to read that article. I do believe it was the first piece of Ripper-writing I ever did and, thankfully, not the best. I may have the original, but not on my computer any longer. In fact, now you've got me wondering where it might be! Anyway, what did you think of the article as you read it? I'd be very curious as to your feedback.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1163
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 7:43 am: | |
Eric, Thom,
Eric,
Jack was organized in that he planned out the murdures (sic) in advance because of the time he would have to complete the job before the constables got back to that point.
And what about Joe Public. Did he time their comings and goings also ?
In my eyes Jack was mixed (you do mention both organised and disorganised characteristics in your post). His style was to blitz his victim as quick as possible. I see no urge to interact with his target. All traits of a disorganised killer. But, as you point out, I can see planning of sorts. Like you say, there was never a Bobby around when you need one....I wonder why ?
Tom,
Can I just ask a question regarding the 'Ritual cross' theory ?
Would the police saturating his killing field dictate where his kills next ? A move in the opposite direction because the chances of getting caught are far less and not because of a ritual. Somewhere where the police are not dragging in extra cover but not too far away from home...get my drift ?
I know this is the wrong thread but.....
Cheers Boys,
Monty
Face cream.....now thats just gayness in a jar... |
James Eric Carter
Sergeant
Username: Archangel261973
Post Number: 29
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 3:34 pm: | |
Tom,
I guess I wasn't clear, Jack's planning came in that he knew the area, he knew where he could commit the murders the way he wanted to. Think of it a military tactical plan, you can never be sure where your enimey will come from but you can plan attacks based on the terrain around you. He knew where and when the bobbies would be at any given time. He knew what he wanted to do to his victims before they were chosen.
In saying that he formed a near perfect cross are you just connecting the dots to see if they will form a pattern or do you go in order ie 1,2,3,4,5? If you follow the trail in order there is no pattern other than perhaps evading a police dragnet.
With Kurten the regessed him back into one of his killings and then had him write somethig and it was in the killers writing. Under "normal" conditions he wrote as he always had.
As to the article, I ind the Bulling part plasible even as far as to your reasoning behind it. But, again I still don't buy into the occult angle for the murders. I think Jack was just f***up and killed just to kill and gto a kick out of it.
Eric |
James Eric Carter
Sergeant
Username: Archangel261973
Post Number: 30
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 3:57 pm: | |
Monty,
I think I covered most of the points in your question in the last post to Tom. But, as to "Joe Public" he had areas picked out as possible sites that he felt would be safe from public eyes, only worrying over when the police would be in the area. Which if you buy the double event as Jack's work "Joe Public" almost found him and he had to find another victim to complete his work.
With the organized/disorganized angle he planed the attacks in that he knew what he wanted to do to the victim once he had them, and as far as to the type of area to commit the cime. He had to be a little like Bundy to get the women to go with him, but he allowed them to "choose" the spot to keep them off guard. His disorganizion came in that he was random in the choosing of his victim and actual site of the kill.
Again you've got to look at the killings are you trying to make a pattern or are you following the numbers? Following the numbers Jack moved away from the last site in two directions, from 1 to 2 slight north and way west, 2 to 3 slight east and way south, 3 to 4 slight north and way west, 4 to 5 slight east way north. This could well point to evading the police dragnet.
Eric |
Thomas C. Wescott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 71
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 7:46 pm: | |
Monty writes: "Would the police saturating his killing field dictate where his kills next ? A move in the opposite direction because the chances of getting caught are far less and not because of a ritual. Somewhere where the police are not dragging in extra cover but not too far away from home...get my drift ?"
I know what you're saying, Monty, but the killer didn't move in the opposite direction. Had he, Mitre Square would have been the site of the second murder, not the fourth. Had what you suggested really been his attention, he would not have stayed within the small square-mile radius he did, but would have moved a bit out of Whitechapel; something very easy to do, even on foot.
Eric,
As for the killer watching the bobbies and learning their beats, you still have to explain WHY he chose the areas he did, as there were much more secluded spots in Whitechapel he could have chosen. As for 'connecting the dots', you're missing the picture. I could explain more, but I don't wish to get ahead of myself.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
James Eric Carter
Sergeant
Username: Archangel261973
Post Number: 31
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 27, 2004 - 10:56 pm: | |
Tom,
I don't think that secludion was his main concern. I think he would have had certain criteria for a site and would have had two or three in an area scoped out. I don't rightly remember where I read it but one writer possed the question of 'how many women were saved because the setting wasn't right?' Even if there is a pattern to the sites it still doesn't point to an occultic angle.
Eric |
Thomas C. Wescott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 76
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 12:05 am: | |
Eric,
So, you're coming around to the thinking that there was indeed a pattern to the sites. That's a start. But, if not occult in nature, what could have possibly been the motivation behind the pattern, as that plainly points to a motive other than murder being a motivating factor for the killer.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
James Eric Carter
Sergeant
Username: Archangel261973
Post Number: 38
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 1:50 am: | |
Tom,
Like I've said if you follow the numbers in order there is no real pattern atleast as far as I can see, if you don't take them in order then you could make several patterns depending on who you put them together.
I really think that Jack first motive for what ever reason was the murder of prostitutes, then as people started to take interest in the murders and the police started arresting suspects he took got afended and wrote a letter and it became more of a game for him. His only real motive still being murdering prostitutes.
Eric |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1166
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 4:20 am: | |
Eric, Tom
Cheers for replying.
Eric,
I cannot see a Bundy type rouse simply because of the victims occupation. They would have been open to approach. Coaxing not needed.
Tom,
Yeah, I agree. The problem is, as it seems to me, that the police were re-acting as opposed to pro-acting. They just hit the areas around the murder sites. The met search area indicates this. They had no interest in St Georges or the city until after victims were found there.
Sure, this takes nothing away from the ritual cross theory and Im not out to disprove it (mainly because, as you know, it cannot be disproved) but I do like to take a gander at other options.
Anyway, as Ive mentioned above, thanks chaps.
Monty
Face cream.....now thats just gayness in a jar... |
James Eric Carter
Sergeant
Username: Archangel261973
Post Number: 39
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 28, 2004 - 12:10 pm: | |
Monty,
In this case the victims occupation would be the trigger. I don't think he was a 'Bundy' type but had a degree of charm as Bundy did, most of the people in Whitechaple were scared during the murders so he would have appeared 'harmless' at first get them to take him to a suitable location then attack.
I see it happening something like this: they agree to a little fun. She leads him to a place where they can do it. She then turns away from him or leans against a wall or something, at anyrate she is now off balance and vulnerable. Jack now grabs her around the throat and knocks her out. Then lays her out on the ground and starts cutting. This is when Jack's arousal would have started, once his ritual had started. And no I don't mean occultic or ritualistic, Tom  what I do mean is his ritual. I think we can agree that he had a ritual and not necessarily an occultic one, a signature if you will.
Eric |
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