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Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 90
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 12:44 pm: |       |
All,
Out of interest, can anyone name me a MURDER SERIES in which the killer got away with it simpley because he was a mason ?
As far as I know only this case has such a stigma.
Come on...dare you !!
Look at the practicalities Ladies & Gents. Look at the mechanics of what you are stating.
Of course an uneducated man can remove a kidney in the dark. What difference does that make ??
Eddowes used other aliases such as Conway (at the time of her living with Master Thomas)...and her use of Kelly isnt that odd when you take on board that her old man at the time had the name of....wait for it...KELLY !! Oooo spooky isnt it ??
You look for your Juwes...I'll stick with the facts and reality.
Monty
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Andy and Sue Parlour
Sergeant
Username: Tenbells
Post Number: 22
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 3:38 pm: | |
Hi all,
Thought my post would get a few reactions.
I do not think the murders were done by a Mason or the Masons. But could have been committed by someone with a certain amount of Masonic knowledge. Perhaps he or they had been thrown out for some reason.
It is so odd that Sir Charles Warren moved like a bullet on wheels when he heard about the Graffiti.
Warren was one of the founders and First Worshipful Master of the Quator Coronati Lodge(2076),the Premier Masonic Research Lodge in the World.
Incidentally the Quator Coronati Lodge met on November 8th 1888, the night before Mary Kelly was murdered.
A.
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Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 170
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 04, 2003 - 9:40 am: | |
Hi, Monty:
Have you ever counted how many Kellys there are in England let alone in Ireland? I stopped counting a long time ago. 
Chris |
Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 94
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 12:12 pm: | |
Joan,
The graffito isnt that unique when you look at the area it was written in. You're right, the apron is hard to ignore....harder than the graffito whose only direct link to Jack the Ripper is....well the aforementioned apron !
The Jewish witnesses may seem cowardly but their reactions were also human. Sure, some of us may have intervined but Im sure most of us wouldnt. I cannot see Jack making a statement of disgust by writing on a wall in Goulston st. He had bigger priorities judging by what he left at Mitre sq.
Also, the candle. The most wanted man in the UK is standing in a doorway, left pocket dripping and full to the brim with a Kidney, candle and a box of Swan Vesta in his left hand (according to Llewellyn) feverishly trying to strike a match with his right hand (according to Dr Bond) whilst holding a box of chalk in his mouth (according to Dr Sequeira), praying PC Long is having a cuppa and wont turn the corner at this precise moment in time.....in between swearing at the matches for not lighting that is.
That sort of thing ??
Not awkward at all.
Cruel Monty.....sorry !
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Brian W. Schoeneman
Inspector
Username: Deltaxi65
Post Number: 276
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 7:12 pm: | |
Joan,
The less than gallant attitude of the jewish men you speak makes perfect sense if you consider the times.
There was a strong feeling throughout the East End that the Ripper was a foreigner, and the Jews there made up a pretty significant portion of the foreign population. There had been a few incidents, and the Police we worried that the Graffito was going to cause a race riot, which is why Warren himself even went down to view it.
Schwartz and the other jews were probably deathly afraid to have the crimes pinned on them for even being in the vicinity and hightailed it away from those scenes.
Putting down riots was what Warren believed was the primary responsibility of the police, so removing the graffito to stop one from occurring would be #1 on his priority list that day.
I think the graffito is probably simply an anti-semitic remark, possibly from the killer, but not based on the actions of any of the witnesses.
B |
Cromo
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 5:58 pm: | |
Earlier in this thread I suggested the word Juwes could refer to the three ruffians of masonic lore. There has been support and dissent for this theory. Some arguements I accept as credible (such as the one put forward by Brian Schoeneman that it is more likely that juwes was a misspelleing of Jews), however I think we do need to put pay to the arguement quoted by Chris Scott from the article which is entitled
"Jack the Ripper" Murders
How To Respond To Alleged Masonic Connections.
Masonic rituals in the UK do still refer to the three ruffians as the Juwes and public masonic literature can be found using this term (The Hiram Key for example).
As for whether this word was meant or not, there can be a debate. The reason I feel it might have been the intended word is the reaction of Sir Charles Warren, who visited the site (why? he hadn't visited the other murder sites and this was not even the murder site) and who ordered the writing erased in the manner in which he did (unrecorded and against procedure). Could he, as a mason, been concerned to keep any possible masonic connection secret.
Not the strongest case I know, but there is some strange behaviour to explain. |
Joan O'Liari
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 6:52 pm: | |
Well Monty,
That fellow lighting his pipe in the doorway on Berner Street didn't make a big deal out of it, matches and candles and lamps were the only light source of the day, they didn't have flashlights and Bic lighters. Matchstick girls sold their wares near or in the pubs for a reason.
Could someone write a message by the light of their glowing pipe, while puffing away innocently in another doorway on the same night? The graffito was there, and it got there somehow, dark or not. Even if you give your eyes time to adjust to the darkness, it would still be difficult. Try writing something on a piece of paper in complete darkness, and see if it is legible or not. It might not be that hard after all.
Well gotta go, I'm on the night shift making sweets for the tourists. No sleep tonight. Talk about dilated pupils, I think I can bake in the dark.
Don't worry cruel Monty, I can take it.
Joan |
Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 102
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 12:06 pm: | |
Joan,
My mother says I have a wicked streak that will lose me friends and gain me enemies....and women !!
Monty thinks * I wonder why Im single ??!!*
I cant see Jack working away with candle or pipe light. Though its a shame we have no record of used matchsticks found in the doorway. Which would kick my ass till nest xmas !!
Writing in the dark may result in legible text but I fear the result may not be in 'good, round schoolboy hand'.
Your right, of course, in stating that the graffito got there somehow.....its just that studying the enviroment (streetlighting, positioning of the writing and the materials used)along with the actual act, leads me to conclude that its more likely to have arrived in the day than at night.
Sorry again,
Monty
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Joan O'Liari
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 7:06 pm: | |
Oh Monty; You would argue about anything but your prayers. Sometimes you even argue with yourself!
The only fly in the ointment is that the reason for erasing the graffito was to avoid the trouble and reaction it would cause when daylight came and people started to move about. Therefore, if the graffito was there the previous evening in the light, many Jewish and other residents of the dwellings would already surely have noticed it.
I am also beginning to believe there might have been some recognition by Warren about the spelling of Juwes as mentioned by Cromo above.
It takes one to know one, and Warren may have wished to avoid that connection to the crimes.
Well, anyone feel free to join in the discussion, as I am all alone here in the dark with Monty!
P.S. Got a light?
Joan |
Monty
Detective Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 104
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 12, 2003 - 8:18 am: | |
Joan,
How do you know it wasnt noticed ??
Monty
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Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 264
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 11:49 am: | |
Folks,
I know this isnt exactly the right thread but its just a quickie,
As some may know, I believe the apron was there when Long first passed through Goulston St (he just missed it)...
....but Im willing to open my mind.
Lets say Im wrong (which wouldnt be the first time)and the apron wasnt there.
So where the hell had Jackie boy been ?
Yeah, Ive heard boltholes but nothing else.
How about The Bell (now the Market trader)? A pub very near to the Wentworth Dwellings....perhaps a pub where darts was a pastime...and with darts comes chalk....see where Im going with this ?
Yep, he may have been covered in cack and stinking to high heaven but I been in a few dives where that odour is described as 'Pot Purri' !!!
Lets have some fun !
Monty
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Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 792
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 5:39 pm: | |
Hi Monty
Uncanny how often the word "double" comes up! So after the Double Event he doubled back, drank a double, threw a double, wrote some double Dutch on the wall and, if he ate that kidney, finished doubled up. 
Robert (Monty's double)
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Robert Clack
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 124
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 5:57 pm: | |
Hi Monty
You haven't been dinking in my local have you?
A pub might be a good place to clean himself up a bit. I don't know what conveniences public houses had in those days. A yard with a water pump or a horses trough outside? I have seen maps of alleys and courtyards with pumps.
Rob |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 793
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 6:50 pm: | |
Hi Rob
But if he cleaned up there, why hang onto the apron?
Robert |
Saddam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 1:29 pm: | |
Monty,
Good point above. The first possible objection I can think of is that the pubs were closed at the time. Remember that Levy, Lawende and Harris remained at the Imperial Club until closing time. Let's ask the available cognoscenti (esp. Viper) to weigh-in on this possibility.
Saddam
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Scott Nelson
Sergeant
Username: Snelson
Post Number: 33
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 11:35 pm: | |
Down from the spot of the discarded portion of apron was a public bath house, open 24 hours a day, on the east side of Goulston Street, directly across from the Brunswick Buildings. It's been said over and over again. Why can't people pick up on this potentially important clue? |
Robert Clack
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 126
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 3:33 am: | |
Hi Robert
I was just trying to help Monty with his scenario.
I think he murdered Eddowes and the when straight home, discarding the torn apron on the way. Whether he wrote the message is another thing altogether.
Rob |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 265
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 7:56 am: | |
Saddam,
That was the first in my list of objections also. I would be grateful if someone could help out with pub closing times.
Wasnt there a difference between pubs and clubs regarding how long they were permitted to be open? I may be wrong.
Scott,
Yeah I know about the public baths. They also have a link with the MacKenzie murder. I was under the impression that this info was followed up at the time.
Everyone,
The scenario I mentioned is only me playing around. Im with Rob Clack. But I was just interested if its something that could have worked.
Thanks to all for your input.
Monty
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Eugene Sue
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 21, 2003 - 8:50 pm: | |
#1 JUWES AND MASONS
There is of course a masonic symbolism in "Juwes". Wor. Bro. Dennis Stocks (Barron Barnett Lodge), a freemason and "debunker" of any conspiracy theory, admits this in his essay "Freemasonry and the Ripper" (somewhere on these pages). Albeit, he says, the according rituals have died out at around 1830.
Let's agree to the latter for now (I don't, and neither, interestingly, does the GUL, but let's pretend) - the fact remains that here was a word that had been used in masonic ritual. So, who is more likely to know of the inner secrets of a (back then) pretty secretive sect/cult/philantrophic society/whatever - an initiate or a mundane?
#2 Juives (?) - Jewes (?) - JUWES !
Scotland Yard on his crime history website gives the spelling "Juwes" and "Juwes" only. The policeman (Long) giving it as "Jewes" has been thoroughly grilled during the inquest back in 1888 and admitted to having made a mistake (or "inconsistency"). "Juives" was very effectively discarded by Mr. Ryder earlier in this thread - it's the French plural feminine of "Jew" which makes no sense at all.
#3 WRITING IN DARKNESS
No need at all to speculate about juggling candles, chalk and matches. I can write neatly and quickly (23 sec for the whole grafitto, crouched in my basement) in utter darkness, on walls, using chalk . So should anyone used to write on blackboards with chalk. That makes a teacher, professor, lecturer (doctor?) a plausible candidate. If the killer DID write it, there is no need to describe it as a challenging task.
#4 POOR GRAMMAR
This claim pops up now and then, not only on this board - the double negative in the graffito would imply a writer of doubtful education. This is not true. As any style guide worth (i.e. MacMillan "Good English Guide") its salt will tell you, the double negative was widely used in Victorian times and indicates someone well versed in the flowery language of Victorian English. Thus it goes hand in hand with one of the middle class professions mentioned in #3.
Only to modern ears does the double negative sound uneducated. In Victorian English it was used for emphasis, so a translation for the MTV-English-challenged might be "The Juwes are to be blamed and with good reason".
#4 MISSPELLING
A man or woman of that caliber (see #3 and #4) is not very likely spelling "Juwes" when meaning "Jews", especially sind all other words (e.g. "blamed") are spelled correctly. Plus, someone on a low educational level trying to spell "Jews" and not knowing how would model its idiosyncratic spelling upon other word he knows - news, juice, glues. "Uwes" in fact is very unusual. No, it was "Juwes". Deliberately and on purpose. There is not antisemitic slur in this.
#5 HOW OLD WAS IT
Fresh. Halse, the only man on the scene with the wits to copy it verbatim, gave a very good explanation during the inquest. Any mundane, ignorant of the hidden meaning, would have interpreted the text as a racial slur. It would have been wiped out within minutes. So Halse concluded, it has been written during the night of the double event, since it looked still fresh and crisp (paraphrasing).
#6 DID JACK WRITE IT?
How shall I know? All we have is a masonic catchphrase next to a bloody apron, a ritualistic murder (this is NOT a claim of a ritual murder) in the vicinity, and Freemason Warren unfolding frantic and hitherto unseen crime scene activity to get vital evidence (said Masonic reference) destroyed.
Regards
ES |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1064
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 11:47 am: | |
Hi Eugene Sue
I should have thought that a native writing a message in such circumstances would have written "The Juwes will not be blamed for nothing", which seems more natural.
Robert
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Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 334
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 11:57 am: | |
Sorry...damn keyboard |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 335
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 11:58 am: | |
Eugene,
Time to nick the eyes.....time to write above/next to the body.
Which would have the more impact ?
It was stated that it was blurred.
But I have an explantion.
When I wrote on the glazed brickwork at Goulston st last year it came out blurred. This was because of the said glaze. So the indicator of blurred writing meaning aged writing doesnt ring totally true.
Monty
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Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 197
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 2:11 pm: | |
I'm not positive, but I think the kind of double negative used in Victorian English is represented by the phrase "not unlike." "Not unlike" is acceptable because it gives a different shade of meaning than "like." In other words, to say this is not "unlike" that is not the same as saying that this is "like" that.
However, "not...nothing" seems awkward and incorrect Enlgish to me, even Victorian English. If someone can provide some examples, I'll change my mind. In some other languages, however, the double negative does provide emphasis. In the Koine Greek of the New Testament, for example the more negatives you string together, the more emphatically negative the statement becomes.
There is one other consideration. In French, the negative is commonly constructed in doubles:
ne...pas; ne...aucun; ne...jamais, etc.
An intersting thing happens when you translate the English phrase "The Jews are men that won't be blamed for anything" to French. You get "Les juifs sont des hommes qui ne seront pas blâmés pour n'importe quoi." Note the double negatives! If you very mechanially translate this back to English you get something like "The Jews are the men that will not be blamed not at all." This sounds not unlike (sorry) "The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing."
Andy S.
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Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 198
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 2:27 pm: | |
... or Spanish (a language with which I am not familiar):
"Los judíos son hombres que no serán culpados para nada." Same double-negative, even more striking.
Andy S.
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Diana
Detective Sergeant
Username: Diana
Post Number: 133
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 9:11 pm: | |
Whitechapel was full of immigrants. |
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