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MeganD
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, September 07, 2003 - 12:52 pm: | 
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There is a theory in the movie From Hell that has to do with the spelling of Juwes. Did anyone catch this, and if so, do they know where the theory comes from? I remember something about three people each one having a name started with Juw... |
Joan O'Liari
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 3:08 pm: |
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MeganD; If you check on the thread Goulston Street Graffito/Juwes or Juives? By Brian Schoeneman on May 24th, he gives a full explanation of the three people you are describing.
Hope this helps.
Joan |
Foghorn
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 22, 2003 - 5:18 pm: |
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Well, seeing what kind of total rubbish this movie is, you might as well start taking seriously the theories like "Lewis Carroll was JTR" or "the Maybrick diary is real" - since they're worth about as much as "From Hell"... |
Tom Petty
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 05, 2003 - 8:18 pm: |
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Beats me why some people feel they have to poor scorn on somone elses enjoyment of a movie, (thank you foghorn) after all, thats what it is, just a movie. It highlights some interesting theories from some scant facts about the real case, along with some interesting (albeit incorrect) masonic ritual in its inimitable Hollywood fashion. It continues to draw some interesting conclusions. Thinking he's a mason excecuting the traitors who killed Hiram Abiff? First of all, they werent prostitutes who did that and its about 5000 years late. On your question of the Juwes theory it raised with the names that start 'Ju', not sure but wasnt Judus Ascariat one, Judea another, cant remeber the other, but I read the threads - vey interesting! Did anyone notice that when the Inspector dies in the end of the film, the coins used were obviously very old and had the head of Queen Victoria. As the film was a 'period' drama, the coins should have been in mint condition not bured & worn! Anyway, good to post!
PS Please forgive my spelling, it's late & I cant spell! |
Saddam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, November 08, 2003 - 12:34 pm: |
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The term 'Juwes' is in fact at the heart of solving the case. Any reasonable person familiar with the case can solve for it--you don't have to be Noam Chomsky. It has a meaning.
Saddam
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Neil K. MacMillan
Sergeant
Username: Wordsmith
Post Number: 25
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 12:43 pm: |
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Saddam;
I'll have to do more reading concerning the spelling of Juwes and its meaning.
Tom;
Depending on the coins and their age they may well have been tarnished. Keep in mind that Her Majesty had been on the throne since 1837. Had the coins on the inspector's eyes been pennies they may well have been tarnished if they had been more than say fifteen years. So being a period drama as you say the oldest coin possible to have been used on the inspector's eyes bearing a likeness of Queen Victoria would have been fifty years old. Kindest regards, Neil |
Jack!
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2003 - 9:43 pm: |
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The coins mentioned above and which feature in the movie were not present at any of the murders - unfortunately as with most of the movie certain truths have been exaggerated!
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Kris Law
Sergeant
Username: Kris
Post Number: 43
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 4:10 pm: |
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Hey Jack!
Get your facts straight. The coins in question in the movie had nothing to do with ANY of the murders. They were placed on Abberline's eyes at the end of the movie, after he died. |
Bob McFly
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 12:17 am: |
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how is the term Juwes solving the case? |
Michael Raney
Inspector
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 358
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 11, 2004 - 1:58 pm: |
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Bob,
Saddam's (David Radka)theory on how "Juwes" solves the crime go to the "Alternative Ripperology" thread under "General Discussion". Mr. Radka gives a detailed explanation of how HE feels the case is solved.
Mikey |
Malkovich John
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 08, 2004 - 10:28 pm: |
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Juwes:The men that will not be blamed for nothing.
The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing. } |
shelley wiltshire
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 20, 2004 - 6:56 pm: |
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Don't forget the ripper had just fled the murder scene of Eddowes, he was in a dark enterance of the model dwellings in Goulston st, he had been seen by jewish men leaving the jewish working men's club. He was in a panic and decided to quickly chalk on the wall a message that was very much on his mind, he scribbled a warning, he wasn't sure if if he had spelt jews, as sometimes the spelling was common to write jewes with a woman in mind, the spelling means nothing but a panic of writing quickly, later a letter had been sent to a local newspaper (no doubt the killer had heard of the sponging off of his message), where in the threating letter it mentions cutting ears off and sending them to his wife. |
wayne o keeffe
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 27, 2004 - 7:42 pm: |
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The juwes were Jubela, Jubelo and Jubelum. As far as I know they were three assasins that murdered a freemason grand master called Hirum Abif. You'll remember those names from the film i think. Whether or not the actual message was refering to them i don't know. But thats who they were. Any opinions? |
Mattew Pryber
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 27, 2004 - 1:17 pm: |
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I believe the Juwes that the Ripper writes on the wall about may simply be a fact of prejudice towards the Jews that lived in 1800's London. Or trying to frame the jews. |
Sarah Thornley
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 28, 2005 - 5:21 am: |
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Hey I'm new here and I stumbled on this post, thus I do not know all the ins and outs as yet. But the way that he spelled 'JUWES' is the way which the Freemasons spelled Jewes. You probably all knew this but hey. Also the note he left on the wall 'The Juwes are the men who will not be blamed for nothing' if take this not you can organise it to say this:
F.G. Abberline, Hate Won, He sent the women to hell, M.J. DRUIT
Thier is a T missing off of the end of Druitt and you are left with the letters e w b l O.
Chances are you have all heard this before but like I said I'm new and havn't read every single post.  |
Dale Huddlesceugh
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 2:26 pm: |
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I think the "Jubilo, Jubila and Jubilum" theory is the best explanation for this particular clue. The trouble is, because Stephen Knight picked up the Masonic theme and kept running with it, Forrest Gump style, over the horizon, if you mention the Masons now people roll their eyes as if you were talking about UFOs or Men In Black! I think it is very possible that the Ripper was a Mason, but that he was acting alone and not as part of any conspiracy and just happened to employ Masonic ritual as part of whatever personal fetish he was acting out. This also explains why Charles Warren as a senior Mason was so keen to erase the message. This DOES NOT imply, however, that Warren knew the killer's identity or didn't want him to be caught, just that he didn't want the name of the Masons to be besmirched. |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1081
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 9:39 am: |
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Dale
I think the "Jubilo, Jubila and Jubilum" theory is the best explanation for this particular clue.
But do you have any evidence whatsoever that the word "Juwes" was used in this (or any other) sense by masons in the 19th century (or before)?
Chris Phillips
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Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 10:13 am: |
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Chris,
I agree with you on this. It strikes me that, if the Masons needed a collective noun for these three, "Jubes" would have been more likely in any case. Besides, weren't these three quite notorious figures in Masonic mythology - allegedly the assassins of the chief mason who worked on Solomon's temple. The "Jubes" were therefore hardly shining examples by which the Masons would have wished to refer to themselves, even cryptically. It would be like English royalist parliamentarians nicknaming themselves the "Fawkers".
Steven Knight's using this second or third-level speculation/falsehood to explain the Goulston St graffiti was absurd, except perhaps from Knight's point of view. After all, he had books to sell.
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 698
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 3:08 pm: |
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Had there been a masonic need for a group of killers of Hiram Abif then Juwes is actually more effective that Jubes. The former is a pun on Jews and throughout Europe in the C18th and C19th there was widespread anti-semitism. I don't believe for a moment that Juwes is what Stephen knight claimed it to be, but I think that given it could have held meaning at several levels, it is not unreasonable.
I remain to see any genuine or convincing evidence that the term has any relevance to freemasonry anywhere (there was a very good discussion of this recently that demonstrated this point), or to the JtR case.
phil |
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 4:16 pm: |
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Phil,
I see what you're saying, although I disagree. If a (non-anti-semitic) abbreviation were required, "Jubes" still looks much more plausible to me, since the common factor in the names of "the Three" is the root "jube".
Even if an anti-semitic abbreviation were required, why does the extraneous "w" creep in when it's not present in either "Jubela", "Jubelo" or "Jubelum"? Surely there's no need for the "w" at all, whatever the motivation - "Jues" is just as effective a pun as "Jewes" or "Juwes".
If the aim was to deliberately belittle the Jews then we must accept two more absurdities. One, as I mentioned above, the Masons were tarring *themselves* with a nickname that commemmorated three disgraced masons. Two, they were also proclaiming their order as anti-semitic, which it plainly wasn't.
A few more reasons to cast doubt this tenuous and artificial Masonic interpretation, I think.
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Catherine Ann
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 6:33 pm: |
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If I'm correct wasn't Stephen Knight murdered? If this is the case, perhaps it's because he was a bit too close to the truth! |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4892
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 12:12 pm: |
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Stephen Knight murdered? The poor guy had a brain tumour, or brain cancer, or something like that.
Robert |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 767
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 1:30 pm: |
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He died of a brain tumour after writing a book ("The Brotherhood") which was anti-Freemasonry.
There were accusations at the time that the Masons had killed him. No basis in fact as far as I know.
Phil |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 866
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 3:49 pm: |
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The anti-Freemason movement is a little nutty and comes up with all sorts of bizarre conspiracies and nonsense. I think they claim that the Freemasons used their secret cancer-causing ray guns, or summoned up a demon to do it, or that secret cult members did a cover up of the truth...
Of course why they didn't just claim the Freemasons sent in the ray gun-toting demons to cover it up and thus take care of all angles at once is the big question.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2449
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 6:46 pm: |
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Robert
dear old Stephen fell down the stairs, didn't he?
Bless him. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4900
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 6:54 pm: |
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And Druitt fell in the water, AP.
Robert |
Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 10:08 am: |
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PC Alfred Long & Superindendant Thomas A Arnold both wrote in their reports that the chalked message read.....
The Juewes are
The men that
Will not
be Blamed
for nothing
However, Sir Charles Warren reports the same thing excepting that Juewes is now Juwes, while just to confuse matters a little more PC Long admits at the inquest that he may have mispelled the word and it may have actually read Jews!
Personally speaking I think that, however it was spelled, it was just like the many letters sent at the time, an educated mans POOR attempt at seeming to be illiterate. |
fredrick johns
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 3:43 am: |
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The term Juwes has masonic meaning. They were the three men who killed the master. just thought you might like to know |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1901
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 9:22 am: |
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Here we go again...
Monty
My prediction? 3-0 to us. 5-0 if the weather holds out. - Glenn McGrath
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Helge Samuelsen
Inspector
Username: Helge
Post Number: 392
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 10:59 am: |
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I don't think it is relevant if it said Juives or Juwes or Jewes or Jews or whatever. It was clearly an attempt to write Jews and we need not make a conspiracy out of it!
Helge
"If Spock were here, he'd say that I was an irrational, illlogical human being for going on a mission like this... Sounds like fun!" -- (Kirk - Generations)
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 100
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 11:16 am: |
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People,
Freemasonry is just a big club with a lot of meaningless ritual like the Catholic Church, or any organized religion for that matter. Mumbo-jumbo keeps people in awe and keeps them from straying from the group. It will never be proven that the Ripper wrote the grafitti. That's probably because he didn't.
Pretty soon you all will be dicussing the Knights Templar and the idea that the Ripper was some Anti-Templar running around gutting women because one of the prostitutes in Whitechapel was carrying a direct descendant of Christ after being impreganted by the Duke of Clarence who was related to Jesus through the Merovingians... That's it! Off to get that book written...
Cheers
Mike the Mauler
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 939
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 1:12 pm: |
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Dear fredrick johns,
This issue was debated in a very detailed thread only a few months ago. Several posters had access to and knowledge of early C19th US masonic books that use the word Juwes.
However, despite many attempts and much challenge, no link could be made either to regular use of the term JUWES either in US masonic lore of the 1880s, or more importantly, in UK masonic lore or ritual at any time.
The contention is DEAD. JUWES has NO masonic conotation, and is highly unlikely (nay has nil chance0 of being a masonic reference as used in the GSG.
Ignore Knight and his followers, their theory has been debunked, discredited and disproved.
Phil |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1452
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 1:55 pm: |
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Phil
Several posters had access to and knowledge of early C19th US masonic books that use the word Juwes.
However, despite many attempts and much challenge, no link could be made either to regular use of the term JUWES either in US masonic lore of the 1880s, or more importantly, in UK masonic lore or ritual at any time.
I think it's actually worse than that. I believe no one has actually substantiated the use of "Juwes" by Freemasons at all in the 19th century.
It's the three names Jubela, Jubelo and Jubelum that appear in the 19th century books, not the term Juwes.
Chris Phillips
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 910
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 3:20 pm: |
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Phil,
No, no, no, no, no! Nobody has ever located any 19th century book (or any reference before Stephen Knight, a known anti-Mason trying to link them to the Ripper murders) that used "Juwes" in any Masonic context.
I've even gone out and bought 19th century books on Freemasonry looking for these terms. The Three Ruffians are somewhat rare, though they do turn up in some US documents, but in no instance have I ever found a reference to them being called "Juwes".
In fact, that's rather the main point. By all evidence, Knight just made that abbreviation up out of thin air to fit his conspiracy theory.
... OK, another email from this thread came in while I was typing this and making lunch... like Chris said, yeah.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 942
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 4:36 pm: |
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Dan, can you recall the thread when all this was discussed recently? You are probably right, as i was working from memory.
Bumping the thread would save a lot of hastle.
Phil |
BH
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 10:24 am: |
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The term Juwes has masonic meaning.
Nah, I don't buy it I'm afraid, Frederick.
Why not entertain the possibility that the author of the message was ill-educated, and as such, was simply oblivious to the correct (or accepted) spelling of the word "Jews"?
Does the above not scream at one as the most likely explanation? |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2579
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 6:22 pm: |
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'Masons only kill rich people who have stolen their cash.'
I think some Pope said that. |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 946
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 2:16 am: |
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Alexander Pope???
How reassuring to know that - I'm safe!!
Phil |
Eddie Derrico
Police Constable
Username: Eddie
Post Number: 9
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 11:21 pm: |
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Phil,
I was reading about the spelling in one of the books. I think it is in Paul Beggs latest. It said certain European countries spell Jews that way.
Yours Truly,
Eddie |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 916
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 2:46 am: |
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Hi Phil,
The Casebook keyword search doesn't seem to be working for me, and looking in the obvious locations didn't turn it up. Today I got the bright idea of going straight to Google, since they do a good job of keeping track of most of these pages.
The specific discussion was in: Suspects > Tumblety, Francis > The Times October 4-5, 1888
Yeah, no wonder looking in the logical places didn't find it, we were kind of off topic there. The discussion kind of straddles the "Archive for May 13, 2005" page and more recent posts.
The basic gist is that a number of people have made claims that it existed but no evidence or mention of it has been located prior to Stephen Knight's theory that the Freeemasons were involved. So, yes, the first verfiable mention of the term in that usage was in the book specifically trying to link Masons to the Goulston Street Graffiti. We've confirmed that the terms Jubela, Jubelo and Jubelum and Three Ruffians existed in several 19th century US works (but notably not UK ones as far as I'm aware), but the term "Juwes" is conspicuously absent everywhere up until Knight tried to use it to implicate the Freemasons in the Ripper killings.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Amused
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 2:23 am: |
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The great thing about these wild fantasy theories, like the Masonic involvement, is that they supply the bases for irrelevant speculative debate on subjects that have sod all to do with the actual murders. This can be seen, again, here. |
Rosey O'Ryan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 7:24 pm: |
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Dear Mr Norder,
As you are well aware, the term "Juwes", exists in medieval manuscripts pertaining to that people who refer to themselves as "Jews" yet transliteration variation in this period uses the the term "Juwes". Since Freemasonary bases its foundation on manuscripts of this earlier period...not the 19th century...we may assume that this term "Juwes" could be a direct reference to the three enigmatic figures in the medieval lore of earlier Freemasonary, i.e., the construction of the House of Wisdom, aka, 'Solomon's Temple'. This era of frenetic philological speculation of those three rogues was long before the birth of America and Freemasonary in general.
Gosh, we have so much to learn about alphabetical desires, in general. But I guess Warren knew better than we do...since he was an expert on medieval manuscripts about the "Juwes" and the "Temple of Solomon".
As Ever, Rosey :-) |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 921
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 11:59 pm: |
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Hi Rosey,
So your argument is because Juwes can be shown to be a variant spelling of Jews that it shouldn't mean Jews at all in the general sense but instead refers to specific characters in an obscure story who have never been shown to have been called that, nor even referenced under any name in European Freemasonry for that matter as far as I'm aware, at the time of the actual Goulston Street Graffiti or before?
Tha's one heck of a lot of assumptions and not very logical ones at that.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Rosey O'Ryan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 5:59 am: |
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Dear Mr Norder,
Now you are putting words in my mouth, you rascal!
Simply put, the word "Juwe" and "Juwes" existed prior to the use of the word "Jew". This word "Jew" appears in the English language after the translation of the bible (King James) from Latin into Anglo-Saxon (English). Hence it is a relatively modern transliteration of the Hebrew, "Iudhi/Iudha".
Ergo, the word "Juwes" existed as the term for those referred to in historical documentation as "Jews" long long ago...and surprising, during 1888 and even TODAY! It exists in the British Museum Library (just down the road from Whitechapel) and the Bodlian Library, Oxford (just up the road from Whitechapel), in fact, up and down, and in me Laydis Chamber.
Who would know of this term "Juwes", in 1888? I ASSUME scholars of the ilk of Warren, Anderson, and of course, the Chief Rabbi.
Hic Rhodus hic saltus!
Rosey :-) |
