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Geeper
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 8:42 am: |       |
After looking over the police notes and talking to my father in law whose job it was to read documents and letters from the 1800's for some 30 years he had some interesting insight.
Quick background....
Halse reported: "There were three lines of writing in a good schoolboys round hand. The size of the capital letters would be about 3/4 in, and the other letters were in proportion"
P.C. Long´s Version -
"The Juwes are the men
That Will not be Blamed for nothing"
D.C. Halse´s Version -
"The Juwes are
“not the men That Will be Blamed for
“nothing"
The quote marks in Halse's version interested him as someone who has read alot of original documens from that time.
He reads it as
"The Juwes are"
not the men that will be blamed for
"nothing"
Interesting... the quotes could point to 2 different writing styles, but in his opinion would point to someting different about those 2 lines.
If the quote marks were on the original it clearly points out the message "The Juwes are nothing" with the rest written inbetween, possibly to hide the original meaning.
Why would Halse have the quote marks in his book, but PC Long didn't? And why are the quote marks in such a strange place? I'd say my father in law stumbled upon something.
I could see if the writing was a little different that Halse might have put the quote marks where Long might have not bothered, but just jotted the whole message, or knowing the differences in their transcripts (Long missing a whole word) maybe LOng left the quotes out.
Thoughts? |
Brian W. Schoeneman
Sergeant
Username: Deltaxi65
Post Number: 14
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 10:12 am: | |
Geeper,
I think that the quotation marks were merely a typo. The phrasing, as quoted by many of the other police officials is
The Juwes are the men that will not be blamed for nothing
The handwriting samples from Long and Halse are attempts to recreate what the writing looked like on the wall. Unfortuantely, Sir Charles Warren had the writing removed prior to it being photographed, so we do not have an extant photo of what it exactly looked like.
B |
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2617
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 1:57 pm: | |
Hi Geeper -
Interesting idea. However, I believe that it was common practice for Victorians to use quotation marks in a slightly different manner than the way we do today. In 19th century, European books, you'll often see a paragraph in the following format:
quote:Lady Jane wrote that "The marriage papers
"had been long enough behind the wire cage and
"the dusty glass of the communal palace, and the
"time had rolled on until now on the first day
"of July he would be wedded to Viola, and only
"forty-eight hours separated him from that morn.
"He ran along the village laughing and singing,
"with a fresh rose stuck behind his ear and a
"fresh ribbon round his hat, and reached the
"house with the white and blue Madonna, and went
"in and sat in the window-sill, looking down on
"the girl's hands as they plaited, whilst Pippo
"worked and smoked his pipe on the threshold."
They often placed a single quotation mark at the beginning of every line break, within a paragraph, to sort of "remind" the reader that this text was still part of the quotation. The handwriting in the following image seems to follow this general pattern.
 |
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2618
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Friday, February 21, 2003 - 2:11 pm: | |
I scanned my shelves for an example of this quotation style and finally found one... This is from an 1818 book called "The Tour of James Monroe". Notice the quotation marks at the beginning of every line for the verse:
 |
Maura
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 3:10 pm: | |
I think this grammatical information about the placement of quotation marks in Victorian times quite fascinating, Stephen and I thank you for sharing it.
I've been pondering those lines for many years and they just confound me. Besides your point about the intermittent quote marks, I wonder about the comment that Halse makes that there were specifically "three lines of writing" and he shows it that way in exact line breaks, but the Long version has it broken down in two lines.
Also both the Long and Halse version you cite have the extraneous caps on the words "That, Will, Blamed".
And in some versions of the Long report, he records the lines with no caps at all as in:
"...about 2.55am I found a portion of a womans apron which I produced, there appeared blood stains on it one portion was wet lying in a passage leading to the staircases of 108 - 119 model dwelling house. Above it on the wall was written in chalk - the jews are the men that will not be blamed for nothing..."
And one step further, in the Warren erasure explanation missive to the Home Secretary, Warren enclosed the breakdown of the chalked wording as in these five lines:
The Jewes are
The men that
Will not
be Blamed
for nothing
I must say these discrepancies have always intriqued me.
Is there any similar relevance to your unearthing of the Victorian style of quote marks on each beginning of a new line, with capitalization of words at the inception of each line..perhaps?
I'm out of my element here and can only diagram sentences uttered in the American lingo and vernacular. As AP Wolf, the Mencken of this coterie, has indicated..we do have our own unique brand of English in grammar and spelling here in the colonies...ya know whut I'm sayin'?
I've always wondered if this specific sentence construction of the chalked message, is indicative of a person who native language was not English, as it seems so labored.
Maura |
AP Wolf
Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 179
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 5:30 pm: | |
This is a very difficult one.
I know when I first started getting my scripts published - many years ago - it was still common then to use what the Germans call geese feet " & " for dialogue or quotation, but now it be severly frowned upon and the ' & ' seems to be favoured for either.
I shall talk to my agent about this, she is very clever and from the clerkenwell/bloomsbury stable so should be able to clear this up.
I was struck by the reference from Halse to the graffiti as being "in a good
"schoolboy's
"round hand."
Or should that be:
'In
a good schoolboy's
round hand.'
Or even:
'In a "good" schoolboy's round hand.'
Might be:
In a good schoolboy's 'round' hand.
I personally cannot imagine a situation where anyone writing on a wall would bother with " or ' and would just write their message.
Compare 'Helter Skelter' and other examples.
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Diana
Detective Sergeant
Username: Diana
Post Number: 106
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 02, 2003 - 8:39 pm: | |
When writing poetry it is standard to start each line with a capital letter even if it is in the middle of a sentence at least in the United States. So:
The Jewes are
The men that
Will not be
Blamed for nothing. |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 225
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 30, 2003 - 8:59 am: | |
In what is almost certainly a confusion with the Goulston street writing, I thought this report might be of interest, accusing Warren of being responsible for the erasing of another written message. It refers to the victim found in a yard, so I am assuming this refers either to Chapman or Stride.
The Ogden Standard (Utah) 12 October 1888
London, Oct. 11.
The Pall Mall Cazette charges that the words "I have murdered four and will murder sixteen more before I surrender myself to the police," written by the supposed Whitechapel murderer upon the shutter of a house adjoining the one in the yard of which one of his victims was found, were erased by the order of Sir Charles Warren, chief of police, before the authorities had an opportunity to photograph them.
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Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 167
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 8:09 am: | |
Hi, all:
I may be wrong but I don't think there is anything to indicate that the inscription on the wall actually had quotation marks round it when it was on the wall. Rather, it is simply how it is quoted back to us, not how the inscription looked when on the wall. Possibly the witness testimony might give an indication that quotation marks appeared on the wall, but I don't believe there is any such suggestion.
All the best
Chris |
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 56
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 6:07 pm: | |
Does Detective Halse's notebook still survive? Does P.C. Long's?
If they do, a glance at the the way these gentlemen treated punctuation might prove enlightening. Of course, a detective would be more likely to use quotation marks carefully.....?
One other factor occurs to me, exactly how rough or smooth was the Goulston Street
model building's foyer wall?
Do we know that? Chalk-marks can be ambiguous on a rough surface.
The interesting discussion above, about 19th Century punctuation habits ( and persons coincidentally carrying chalk), brings to mind Montagu John Druitt.
Would a pedant who constantly encountered incorrect punctuation and spelling find it easy to immitate such ludicrous constructions just to make mischief- or to sneer at the police? |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 204
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 7:00 pm: | |
Hi all
One question which arises in connection with assessing the Goulston St graffito, is how much other graffiti was there around? Another question is, how common was it for people to carry chalk around with them? It seems to me that these two questions are more or less one - if chalk-carrying was common, there was probably a lot of graffiti, and if it wasn't usual to carry chalk, then there probably wasn't much graffiti. After all, what could people in those days write on walls with, if not chalk? (And now I just know that someone's going to tell me!)
Robert |
Joan O'Liari
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 6:27 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
One of the things that caught my attention on that autopsy site was the fact that the pathologist or his assistant wrote the weights of the organs on a chalkboard, and both the chalk and board were usually well covered in blood by the end of the procedure. That link is on the weapons thread.
Joan |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 210
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 7:19 pm: | |
Hi Joan
I've read the autopsy link you posted. Fortunately I'd already eaten!
I suppose the fantastic skill described in that article puts into perspective the crude hackings of the Mitre Square murderer. And though I believe the extent of his medical skill and knowledge remains uncertain, I have to wonder whether a fully paid up member of the medical profession would have soiled his hands with faeces in this way.
What were the assistants called? Dieners? It's enough to put you off your Diener, that's for sure!
Robert |
JJ
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, June 07, 2003 - 7:11 pm: | |
I have been casually reading "Complete JTR" & have noticed 2 policemen leaving the "not" in both places but crossing the first 1 out ... so I ask is this deliberate? It might explain the difference between City & Met quotes. Good discussion! John |
Charles L. Cron
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, July 18, 2003 - 7:18 pm: | |
Robert Charles Linford's May 31st post brings up an interesting point that I have always grappled with when reading about the Whitechapel murders. Regardless of the quotes/no quotes issue (which I doubt is of any importance, since the original message most likely did not contain them and the quotation marks were added when those investigating the graffito wrote it down in their notes), there is the question of the chalk. Would such an item be likely to have been found randomly in a darkened street by a man fleeing from not one, but TWO crime scenes in order to escape capture? It always seemed unlikely to me. The killer undoubtedly took it with him with the expressly planned & premeditated intention of using it to write a message to implicate the Whitechapel Jews in the killings. His selection of the International Working Men's Club in itself also reflects this.
It is my belief that the attack on Elizabeth Stride was meant to throw suspicion on the Jews, and that he intended to murder and mutilate her and then leave the message scrawled on the wall of the Club. Diemschultz's arrival via carriage undoubtedly interrupted him in his task, hence the "double event" that night. However, had he wanted to leave his message near a body, he could have done so later that evening when he killed Catherine Eddowes - but then again, perhaps he was frightened away and had to make his escape or be captured. The timeline Sugden points out in his "Complete History" is very tight, and it could be that the killer had more than one close call that evening, hence the writing being found in Goulston Street instead. But, like so many facts and events of the case, as well as the true identity of the killer, we will never know for sure.
Keep up the good work folks! |
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