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Marie Finlay
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, March 21, 2003 - 5:11 pm: |       |
Personally, I'm not convinced that Levy saw anything other than Lawende did. I don't think he was hiding anything, I just think he didn't want to be involved in the whole investigation. He may have feared a reprisal from the killer.
The fact that he said: "I don't like going home by myself when I see these sort of characters about. I'm off." tells me that he was a jumpy person. More so than Lawende, at least.
Some people are like that- they'll cross the road to avoid people they think look dodgy, or might be involved in shady activities.
My own guess would be that this letter was sent to either Schwartz, or Lawende
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Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 77
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 3:40 am: | |
G'day Chris, Rob, Alex, Brian, Marie, everyone,
(from now on I'll just say "G'day All"),
We could all read the lines and take every one of them differently, but we have to look at all possibilities. I believe the police went wrong this way in 1888.
I was just reading the evidence given to police by Schwartz (through an interpreter), then reading reports on how they took it and how one newspaper reported it.
'The Complete History' by Phillip Sugden, page 124 says that the one newspaper that told of the evidence that Police wanted to keep secret, reported: 'Police apparently do not suspect the 2nd man whom Schwartz saw on the other side of the street and who followed Schwartz.'
On page 201 it says: 'Schwartz volunteered his information at Leman Street Police Station on Sunday the 30th of September'. Perhaps the killer was at a nearby Public House, watching all the fuss he caused that morning.
Rob you're right about blackmail! After the Double Event, talk of a reward was stirring.
The use of 'little game' was very uncommon in Victorian England, that's why alot of experts detected an American author. It's another link to the 'Dear Boss' letter.
'The Complete History of Jack the Ripper' on Page 203 gives the 'Star' newspaper report on 1 Ocober, that Rob refers to above: 'Information which may be important was given to the Leman Street police late yesterday afternoon......He gave his name and address, but the police have not disclosed them.' So the only newspaper report on Schwartz does not give his name or address.
A report written by Inspector Swanson on 19 October gives Schwartz's address as:'22 Helen [Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane. So Backchurch Lane mustn't have been a street at all.
Tomorrow, I'll look at Lawende!
LEANNE PERRY
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Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 79
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 5:39 pm: | |
G'day All,
OK: Joseph Lawende left the Imperial Club on the early morning of September 30, with Harry Harris and Joseph Levy. They went 15 yards and saw a man & woman standing near Mitre Square. Lawende later identified this woman as Catharine Eddowes.
On Thursday October 11 at the Eddowes Inquest, Lawende said of the man: 'The man had a cloth cap on with a cloth peak... I have given a description of the man to the police... I doubt whether I should know him again....Unless the jury wish it, I have special reason for not giving details as to the appearance of this man.' What 'special reason'?
So Lawende spoke to police before the inquest, (independant of the other two?), and he was too frightened to help any further. Like Levy, he appeared frightened on the 11th, which was 3 days after the above threatening letter was postmarked.
So we now have three frightened witnesses: Israel Schwartz, Joseph Levy and Joseph Lawende. One handed the threatening letter to Police, but they all could have received similar letters.
The third member of the party who left the Imperial Club, Harry Harris, didn't even appear at the inquest with his friends. He told the 'Evening News' on the 9th of October, that he saw no more than the other two. So now we have four possibly too frightened witnesses. Who cares which one of them received this particular letter. I reckon it was authentic, and we've just proved it!!!
The temptation presented to the writer of finding out the recipients address, suggests to me that it was Israel Schwartz who handed the above letter in!
LEANNE PERRY
Sub-editor of 'Ripperoo'.
(I'll write a story about this, giving credit to everyone!)
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Robert Clack
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, March 22, 2003 - 3:29 pm: | |
Hi Leanne, Marie, everyone
Marie: I can understand what you are saying, I suppose it's down to how we interpret these events. I find it strange that he was called to the inquest and said nothing of any real importance, unless to corroborate what Joseph Lawende said.
Leanne: The "Star" article mentioned Backchurch Lane, and on the night of the Double Event he was supposed to be moving from Berner Street to Backchurch Lane. So between October 1st and October 19th he possibly moved again from Backchurch Lane to 22 Ellen Street.
Backchurch Lane runs parallel to Berner Street, it is about the same width and almost twice the length. You can just make it out on the maps pages, it is to the left of Berner Street, curved at the north end and straightens out at about mid way. Ellen Street is Parallel to Fairclough Street (It is the next one down) and runs from Backchurch Lane to Christian Street, crossing past Berner Street. Berner Street actually ends at Ellen Street.
I will try to post a photo of Backchurch Lane which I took about twelve years ago, with this message. The Photograph is looking southwards close to Fairclough Street. It is interesting as some of the houses were similar to those in Berner Street. I think they have now been demolished. For those with detailed Ordnance Survey maps, that is Mundys Place to the far left. And the building between the two overgrown bushes/trees was a public house back in 1888. Fairclough Street joins Backchurch Lane at about the point where the public house is.
Rob |
Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 80
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 12:09 am: | |
G'day Rob,
Did Ellen Street run off Backchurch Lane? Maybe he moved to home on the corner! - Of Course!
LEANNE |
Marie Finlay
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 6:02 am: | |
Robert, you posted: "I find it strange that he was called to the inquest and said nothing of any real importance, unless to corroborate what Joseph Lawende said"
I'm not sure what the procedure is, perhaps someone with more legal savvy could correct me, but- isn't it normal to call *all* witnesses? Even if they all only saw the same thing?
Personally, I think that the police mistook his reluctance to be involved in the investigation. He may have *seemed* jumpy and uptight because he was afraid to be involved (afraid of reprisal from a killer not yet caught). I think the police misinterpreted this as he was hiding something.
It's my impression that when Levy came out of the club, and saw Eddowes with the man, he was afraid of being mugged, and that's why he said: "I don't like going home by myself when I see these sort of characters about. I'm off." I imagine that when he found out that he may have seen a vicious killer, he became even more reticent. If he was afraid of being mugged, he may have been even more afraid of being killed for being a witness.
but I agree with you, this is all down to personal interpretation of the information. I interpret it this way, because my friend is this jumpy, when we go out togther. Much as I love her, it drives me nuts.
Thank you so much for posting the picture! It quite clarifies things.
Leanne: I am in agreement with you. I personally feel that Schwartz was the most likely recipient of the letter.
I do believe that Schwartz was seen by Strides killer, and that's why he shouted "Lipski" at him, at which point his accomplice (pipeman) pursued Schwartz. So this leaves me curious about the taunt: "But you made a mistake if you though I dident see you". But perhaps the taunt was just meant to reinforce the threat that the killer had seen Schwartz.
I'd love to read the story you are writing! |
Robert Clack
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 23, 2003 - 2:51 pm: | |
Hi Leanne
If you look at the last page of the acknowledgements in Phillip Sugdens Book, you will see on the opposite page a map of all murder sites, and Ellen Street is shown at the bottom of Berner Street. There were about 60 to 70 houses in the street so I don't think Number 22 was on the corner.
I don't know about you, but I have been re-reading Elizabeth Strides murder and I am having strong doubts as to her having been murdered by Jack the Ripper.
Don't worry about giving me a credit, just a donation to my favorite charity (me) will be sufficent.
And I made a mistake, Mundys place is actually far right (I put it down to my two left feet).
Rob |
Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 83
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 6:26 am: | |
G'day All,
Reading the report on the Eddowes Inquest from 'The Ultimate JtR Companion', I see that: 'Mr. Crawford' at the opening of the proceedings, stated that he was present as representing the City Police, for the purpose of rendering the Coroner and the jury every possible assistance.' He was the 'City Solicitor.'
At the bottom of each witnesses testimony, there is a few lines added by Crawford. He seemed to be comparing their given testimonies to the ones they origionally gave police.
After Joseph Levy spoke, Mr Crawford added: "There was nothing that I saw about the man and woman which caused me to fear them". As Levy had always claimed that he took no notice, I'd say Police had no reason to believe he was hiding something.
At the inquest Levy said that he told Harris: 'I don't like going home by myself...', but Mr. Harris wasn't there to verify this!
I don't believe Schwartz's 1st man and 2nd man were in league at all. I believe that Stride may have arranged to meet 2nd man, which angered 1st man, (who oppenly attacked her in front of all potential passers-by). Realizing that Schwartz saw, 2nd man pretended to disolve from the scene, then went back to 'rescue' Stride, then killed her! Remembering that he'd been seen by Schwartz, and three Jews near Mitre Square, he sent each one a threatening letter hoping that they wouldn't help police! 1st man was too frightened to come forward and clear his name, because the Police were confussed into suspecting him!
ROBERT: I found that map! Was the front door to Schwartz's new house, facing the direction of Backchurch Lane, but still on the corner? His address should have been given as: "22 Backchurch Lane, Ellen Street", not "22 Hellen [Ellen] Street, Backchurch Lane" - Human Error!!!!
Are your 'Strange doubts' about Elizabeth Stride's murder, fuelled by the belief that 1st man killed her?
I'm not an author like Patricia Cornwell! I began helping Julian Rosenthal with 'Ripperoo' as a hobby, and things started happening! I learnt to always give credit where credit's due and if I write a story about this, I'll begin by saying how we 'met' on Casebook! I'm sorry Rob, but if this hobby wasn't costing me so much, I'd gladly donate to your charity!!!
LEANNE PERRY
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Marie Finlay
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 8:49 am: | |
Hi Leanne,
Hmmmm. "I don't like going home by myself when I see these sort of characters about. I'm off"- doesn't seem to go with: "There was nothing that I saw about the man and woman which caused me to fear them".
Interesting.
But I'm still personally convinced that the man seen attacking Stride, and 'Pipeman' were either working together, or they were at least known to each other. I think that the man seen attacking her, was the one who killed her- it's the simplest explanation.
I do understand the point you're making, but I'm not inclined to agree, in this case.
As far as Stride being a Ripper victim, I'm forever in two minds. It's perfectly possible that she wasn't.
In that case, it's still possible that Schwartz was the recipient of the threatening letter, with the author signing himself as 'Jack the Ripper', in order to scare Schwartz even more.
Or maybe the letter really did go to Lawende. |
Robert Clack
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, March 24, 2003 - 2:53 pm: | |
Hi Leanne, Marie
Leanne, I was just joking about my charity.
And this is only a guess but I think 22 Ellen Street was on the South side nearer Berner Street.
If Schwartz was the receiver of the letter than we can rule out that the letter writer knew him.
I still think it was Levy,but what does anyone know about Harry Harris?
I have doubts as to whether Elizabeth Stride was a victim of Jack the Ripper because it is always presumed Louis Diemschutz disturbed him from mutilating her body. If that is the case than Israel Scwartz could not have seen Jack the Ripper, as there is a fifteen minute gap from the attack on Stride to the discovery of her body.
Marie I think you are right in that all witnesses need to be called, but I can think of three who should have been called but where not: Israel Schwartz, Harry Harris and Fanny Mortimer.
I can understand what you are saying about Joseph Levy being a nervous person, but all he saw was a man and a woman just standing together.
Rob |
Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 85
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 4:22 am: | |
G'day All,
Yes Joseph Levy's testimony does not match his first statement to police. Maybe he changed it to give Lawende's story more support, do you think?
If 1st man's attack ended with him killing Stride 15 minutes later, it must have been some argument!!!! And he sure was taking a risk, starting it out in the open like that! Jack the Ripper seemed to have gained Chapman's and probably Nichols', then Eddowes's and Kelly's confidence first. I have very little doubt that this was a Ripper killing. Especially if we can find a link between a witness who saw Stride's killer and witnesses who saw Eddowes with her killer.
"Lipski!" could have been 1st man's insult to 2nd man, as he was departing.
Under: 'Schwartz, Israel' in the 'A-Z', it gives the 'Star' interview with Schwartz, then the line: 'The police have arrested one man answering the description the Hungarian furnishes..., [of 1st man], ...The prisoner has not been charged...' So, this 'prisoner' was either someone else, or 1st man cleared himself!
LEANNE
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Marie Finlay
Police Constable
Username: Marie
Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 6:41 am: | |
Hello,
Leanne, you posted: "If 1st man's attack ended with him killing Stride 15 minutes later, it must have been some argument!!!!".
But can we be *absolutely sure* that 15 mins elapsed between the time Schwartz saw the man attacking Stride, and the time Diemschutz discovered her body? Schwartz saw the attack at "approximately" 12.40am, and perhaps Diemschutz discovered Stride a few minutes before 1.00am.
In actuality, perhaps it wasn't 15 mins, perhaps the two events happened closer together.
Robert, you posted: "I can understand what you are saying about Joseph Levy being a nervous person, but all he saw was a man and a woman just standing together"
Well, personally, I think perhaps what he saw was a rough-looking male, trying to pick up a shabby-looking (vagrant) prostitute.
unsavoury people engaged in shady activities? |
Robert Clack
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 8:04 am: | |
Hi Leanne, Marie
The problem with Elizabeth Strides murder, is that we can't be sure of the exact times each witness gave. if Israel Schwartz was correct about the time then Joseph Lave must have seen the attack as he was supposedly in the yard at that time, or he may have went into the yard just after the attack and it was he, not Diemschutz who disturbed the killer. This is all speculation unfortuately, there doesn't seem to be anything specific to go on.
Marie I would have thought Joseph Levy would have been used to those type of people, especially in that area but who knows.
Rob |
Marie Finlay
Police Constable
Username: Marie
Post Number: 5
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 3:44 pm: | |
Robert, you posted: "I would have thought Joseph Levy would have been used to those type of people, especially in that area but who knows"
Well, I'm not so sure about that. It seems like the area would be pretty deserted at night. I would imagine he probably didn't expect to see anyone hanging about.
I'm not trying to be argumentative, I promise! 
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Robert Clack
Police Constable
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 2
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 4:49 pm: | |
Hi Marie
I never argue with a lady, I think the expression is "agree to disagree"
Joesph Levy was normally home by eleven, so I think he may seen those types before. And don't forget it was a rough area day and night.
I am not trying to get the last word, I promise!
Rob |
Marie Finlay
Police Constable
Username: Marie
Post Number: 7
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 25, 2003 - 5:50 pm: | |
Mustn't-let-Rob-have-the-last- word!
Ok, I'll agree to disagree!
I'll definitely grant you "rough area", but still maintain it was probably not busy at all around that time of night. I don't think he was expecting to see people.
Or you might be right. Darn it.  |
Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 86
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 26, 2003 - 4:36 am: | |
G'day,
As this conversation is moving off the subject, I suggest we move it to the 'Witnesses/Schwartz israel' board, to keep 'Casebook' tidy. Let's talk about Joseph Levy's conflicting statements on the 'Lawende' board or we can start a new board: 'Levy, Joseph'. See ya there!
LEANNE
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M. Barr
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 10:36 pm: | |
Hi all,
There would be no material reason for Lawende's description to be withheld at the inquest unless there was great justification. Speculation: Lawende knew who it was that he saw and could describe him to a tee, although he didnt know where he lived. And anyone ever noticed how BOTH victims on that night were killed VERY CLOSE to Jewish clubs? The killer must have known both areas very well (otherwise why flee to an unknown area! It flies in the face of reason to do that!)....possibly a member of both institutions?? Personally i believe LAWENDE's life should be looked at in greater detail. After all, it's an avenue of possibility that hasn't been fully explored YET. |
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