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  | Archive through July 09, 2005 | Howard Brown | 50 | 1 | 7-09-05 9:07 pm |
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1584
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2005 - 10:40 pm: | 
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Hi all
Apropos my comments on the Boards about the location of the graffito, Paul Begg did an article on this in Ripperologist recently in which he pointed out that it isn't at all clear that Warren did mean the jamb of the street entrance. So I may have misspoken when I said I thought Warren meant the door jamb on the street.
As I noted, Warren says the graffito was "on the jamb of the open archway or doorway visible to anybody in the street." He does NOT specifically say the writing was on the bricks of the jamb of the entrance on the street but that it was "visible to anybody in the street." Now, as Paul indicates, this may seem a nit-picky point, but this would be a superfluous remark if the graffito was to all intents ON the street. But inside the building, as the accompanying photograph shows, there was a stairway to the right and a door to the left, both presumably having what could be described as a "jamb" and if the writing was there then it would make sense of Warren's remark.
Furthermore, we're told that the graffito was above the piece of apron and the overwhelming weight of testimony, as Chris Phillips noted, is that the apron (and by inference the graffito) was in the hallway. P.C. Long said he found the piece of apron "lying in a passage leading to the staircases of 108 to 119 Model Dwelling House" (Coroner's inquest (L), 1888, No. 135, Catherine Eddowes inquest, 1888. Corporation of London Record Office.) Detective Halse of the City Police also said the writing was inside the passage, explaining that if the apron had been there at 2.20 a.m. "he would not necessarily have seen it, for it was in the building." (The Times, 12 October 1888). Furthermore, Swanson said the apron "was found in the bottom of a common stairs" (HO 144/221/A49301C, ff. 184-94, Report by Chief Inspector Donald S. Swanson dated 6 November 1888).
By supposing the writing to be on the wall by the stairway all the testimony of the witnesses appears to be reconciled.
Superintendent Thomas Arnold said that the writing was "on the wall of the entrance to some dwellings. It was in such a position that it would have been rubbed by the shoulders of persons passing in & out of the Building." (Report by Superintendent Thomas Arnold, H Division, dated 6 November 1888). On the face of it, this seems to support Warren, but only if we interpret "passing in & out of the building" very precisely as meaning the street entrance, but his words could mean going up or down the interior stairway and quite frankly if the graffito was going to be rubbed by the shoulders of people then it's more likely to have happened at the bottom of those narrow stairs than at the comparatively wide street entrance to the building.
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
See "Jack--The Musical" by Chris George & Erik Sitbon
The Drama of Jack the Ripper Weekend
Charlotte, NC, September 16-18, 2005
http://www.actorssceneunseen.com/ripper.asp
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1164
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 9:43 am: |
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Just a couple of thoughts.
The glazed bricks that have been referred to were the ones on the pilasters either side of each doorway. The ones flanking the doorway are painted blue and white in Rob's photo. I can't see this on the old postcard, and they may have been added when the front of the building was remodelled.
My impression is that on at least some of the doorways a rounded corner is still visible at each side of the door - the corner of the "door jamb". Also that the same bricks - black, yellow and red, go right up to this corner.
So I think the black colouring that goes from top to bottom either side of the doorway in the old black and white photos is just black paint, not different-coloured bricks.
Chris Phillips
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Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 586
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 12:05 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
I agree about the pilasters being added at a later date. There's no evidence of them either on the other old Goulston Street postcard. I have had a look at the documentary "The Secret Identity of Jack the Ripper" made in 1988, and this has a view of the doorway in 1988 and the jamb is definitely painted black:
And this is a screen capture of an old fifties newsreel about Petticoat Lane. I can't be 100% certain but it looks like part of the front of Wentworth Model Dwellings.
Rob |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 688
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 2:41 pm: |
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Dear Bob and all.
It rained prior to Eddowes murder. Regardless of whether JTR wrote this message or not, wouldn't it seem improbable that Halse would describe it as "fresh" if the GSG was on the front of the entrance of the building [in the photo with the woman ] and not on that column in the center [between the door to the cellar and the stairwell ]considering the precipitation and likelihood of wet bricks?
Thank you for all these photos,folks.
HowBrown
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1168
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 3:39 pm: |
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Bob
Many thanks for all these fascinating photos.
It seems as though the pavement level probably hasn't changed very much, after all. Twenty courses of black bricks in the black and white photo of the door - just the same number as in the modern photo of the next door to the south.
Comparing the latest photo with the woman standing in front - which seems to show quite a significant slope on the right of the door - with the modern photos, a bit of concrete has been added in front of the door and the shop front to the right, presumably to level things up. But the level hasn't changed much.
Confusingly, the pattern of the coloured bricks is different for the different doors (3 courses of yellow bricks above the dado beside the door, but 4 courses beside the next door to the south), and also the relationship of the coloured bricks to the ornamental feature at the top of the door is different.
Chris Phillips
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Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 587
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 7:00 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
I've just been studying the video with the woman in. The video just shows her walking in close up along the front of the building and then moves outwards when shes at the doorway. I am certain she is standing at the wrong doorway and standing at the last one at the northern end.
It's not vitally important as we know what the right door is, but it does tell us that the building slopes more at the northern end. It does explain the gradual change in the course of bricks. This shows the dip and how much lower the northern most entrance is. It is covered by an awning but you can still see the top.
Rob |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1169
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 5:18 am: |
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Rob
Thanks for the further information.
When John and I were there a tour guide was showing round a party of school children, and I believe he pointed out the northernmost door (which ties in with what Philip said about some guides).
Chris Phillips
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John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 397
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 6:22 am: |
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Dear Folks,
I am absolutely elated to see the fine brains and sharp lenses and useful back-catalogues of people like Robert Clack, Suzi Hanney, and the excellent observations of people like Chris George, Natalie and Chris Phillips. Great stuff!(The first-mentioned made good observations too, I think).
Next time anyone visits the Goulston Street doorway, I strongly recommend they duck around to Wentworth Street (turn right and walk along until you strike a narrow opening/lane in the building). There you will be able to see clearly the courses of brick : black, white, terra-cotta and yellow, -just as they would have been in Jack's day!
It is possible to touch and look closely at the surface of the black bricks.(Which are probably exactly like the very surface on which the Graffitti was chalked : around in Goulston Street).
To me, that is the only significance of the black bricks and their varying height.
I agree, that the door jamb either was originally or certainly was later, of a different surface than the bricks on the wall inside the hallway.(If we judge things from photos and the bricks round in Wentworth Street).
I particularly liked Howard's clever observation that if the chalk had been on the street-front door-jamb, it would have been affected by the rain mentioned at the Eddowes Inquest.
One question I would ask: does anyone know of illustrations from newspapers or journals around 1888, which show the Graffitti doorway/ or hallway? ( I do mention one at the beginning of this thread). |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1170
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 7:13 am: |
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John
One question I would ask: does anyone know of illustrations from newspapers or journals around 1888, which show the Graffitti doorway/ or hallway? ( I do mention one at the beginning of this thread).
That is an interesting question. The illustration is on p. 57 of my copy of Odell and Wilson (Corgi paperback, 1988), and obviously the artist hadn't seen the actual doorway.
But some of the contemporary illustrations were based on observation. In this case it's unlikely an artist could have observed the graffito before it was removed, but it would be fascinating to see a contemporary sketch of the doorway.
Chris Phillips
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4665
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 7:32 am: |
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John, Chris
There is a drawing right at the start of Rumbelow's third chapter. It's useless for finding out anything about the doorway, however, and of course we don't know whether the artist just "made up" the sketch. The only thing it does show is the writing at head height.
Robert |
Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 588
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 7:44 am: |
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Hi Chris, John,
School children? the mind boggles.
The illustration from Odell and Wilson's book is I believe from the Harold Furness series (1901?).
The only contemporary illustration I know of is the one we have all seen from 'The Illustrated Police News'
I suppose it is too much to hope for, but would the architecture plans have survived? I've seen the plans for the Goulston Street baths, so I suppose there is a very slim chance that they may be lurking in some archive somewhere. They may supply the answer to some of the questions.
Rob |
Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 589
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 11, 2005 - 7:46 am: |
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Robert, Great minds think alike (or is it fools never differ)
Anyway
"Snap" |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1174
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 4:44 am: |
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Rob
Thanks for that illustration. Maybe my ignorance, but I don't think I've seen it before.
In view of the discussion, the placement of the white and black areas on the wall is suggestive, but perhaps it's just determined by the composition.
On the question about the survival of plans, from time to time I've had a bit of a look to try to find out who actually built these model dwellings, but without success.
The Peabody Trust, which built model dwellings all over the capital, is still in existence and its records are at the London Metropolitan Archives. Is it known who built the Wentworth Model Dwellings?
Chris Phillips
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John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 398
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 5:36 am: |
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Thanks for that information Robert & Robert & Chris,
And for the illustration Robert Clack. It is obvious you have given a lot of time, thought and resources to this subject.And the other Robert.
Presumeably artists hired to illustrate genuine sites for journals, would normally be required to attend the actual locations?
I could imagine press reporters turning up too late to see the actual graffitti, turning to uniformed policemen on the spot asking them where the graffitti was, and what it said, and just why it was expunged.
As we have seen, the policemen's information could not always be relied upon.
There seems to have been a perpetual need for policemen to assume the air of some "Johnnies-On-The-Spot " who have seen all, and infer no-one
else had.
Interesting question about the plans and records of the erecters of the Model Dwellings.I have never seen details. Though I imagine a Martin Fido or Paul Begg would have looked into it.
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Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 591
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 6:38 am: |
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Hi Chris, John
There are two other possibilities that I know off.
'The East London Dwellings Company' or 'The Four Percent Industrial Dwellings Company'.
Both were set up in the mid 1880's
The Four Percent Industrial Dwellings built I believe 'The Rothchild Buildings' in Flower and Dean Street.
Rob |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4672
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 7:23 am: |
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All, the Goulston St buildings were, I believe, sometimes called just Wentworth Dwellings, and there was a Wentworth Dwellings Co.
Robert |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 399
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 5:48 am: |
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What I was getting at in my comment about the requirement for artists for illustrated publications to actually visit the subject sites,
was that the ILLUSTRATED POLICE NEWS was released very close to the time of the actual murders, not some ten years after or something.
Presuming the artist who drew the Graffitti sketch above, visited the actual site, I think it is interesting he drew the graffitti on a broad expanse of interior wall, and not on a kerb-side
archway door-jamb.
Sketches of other Ripper murder sites appear to attempt accuracy,is it not likely this sketch reflects the true picture?
Another thought has occurred: given the confusing stories of just where the apron and the graffitti were, do you not think the two might not have been as close together as some had described?
The graffitti on the door-jamb, the apron a bit further inside, near the bottom of the interior staircase? |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1769
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 10:53 am: |
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John,
The graffitti on the door-jamb, the apron a bit further inside, near the bottom of the interior staircase?
You and me both.
Breakdown.
Long states the apron was below the writing.
Warren states the writing was on the jamb.
The jamb can be viewed from the street.
Halse states that he didnt see the apron. He passed along the street. If it was below the writing he would have saw it apparently. However, as Halse again states, that doesnt mean it wasnt there. It may have been inside the stairwell (of course, another possibility is that the apron was placed later on. An irrelevant issue as we are discussing the position of the writing).
Somebody somewhere were either erronous or lying.
And thats the rub.
Monty
Of course this land is dangerous!
All of the animals are capably murderous.
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John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 400
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 5:55 am: |
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Yes Monty,
A few policemen on the beat and even one ex-policeman (George Morris)told some hard-to-believe stories about what they, saw or heard on that cold, rainy 30 September night in 1888....
I often wonder if some of the patrolling beat policemen hadn't mumbled amongst themselves:
.." Blow it, I'm not going wandering up no dark alley or into darkened doorways after some nutter who does what he did. Not with our guv'nors
refusing to give us decent pensions..I'm not going in Harm's way on my wages..." |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2762
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 3:43 pm: |
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Hi all
Right...........have read and re read this and keep coming back to the thing....where was the apron in relation to the 'graffiti'?
IF, the writing on the wall was so visible as to be seen from the street and thus aggravate the 'locals' that would suggest that it was close,and thus visible.... to the street side of the jamb...
NOW..if a shall we say a 'running away Jack'..(if twas he) ..decided to ditch the offending rag, I suggest IMHO, that he 'chucked' it into the doorway and that it probably landed a tad further into the doorway!..more than likely not under the 'graffito'
OK ,Halse didnt see anything.....maybe it was there either long before or long after the graffito , and Halse,as John says couldn't or wouldn't be 'bothered '(polite way of putting it there!) ,to have a look into that doorway....at the end of the day why should he??.......just the same old doorway no one running in and out with bloodstained clothes,hands and knives so sod it get to the end of mi' beat and get home!
Dont blame Halse I say!
Suzi |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2763
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 3:48 pm: |
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This is a brilliant thread but should it be here????????Maybe on Eddowes??? Dunno sorry just a thought!
Suzi |
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