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Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 277
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 7:20 am: |       |
Hi Leanne,
You are perfectly free to put whatever you like in your book, and accept or reject any of the generally friendly and well-meaning advice you have been getting from enthusiasts on these boards. This has nothing to do with my happiness but everything to do with how you want all your readers to receive the fruits of your labours.
Quite honestly, though, I think you have your work cut out unless you can persuade Richard not to try making a case against Joe using some of his more entrenched and highly subjective opinions. His post beginning: There are two types of anger, anger of love and anger of hate... suggests the kind of black and white views of the human condition that make me want to go 
However, I do wish you all the luck in the world for your project, and I am very aware of just how much time and effort has to go into it.
Love,
Caz
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Glenn L Andersson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 104
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 8:08 am: | |
G'day, Leanne
"It's also clear that this is an unsupported secondary source. Happy?"
That's absolutely OK with me. Like Caz says, you have every right to put in your book what you want; we just suggested that you don't make too big a deal out of such a questionable incident -- for your own and Richard's sake, as well as your readers. But you must naturally write what you must and also take responsability for it yourself, noone can do it for you.
But as long as you make it perfectly clear for everyone that it comes from an unsupported secondary source, noone could blame you for mention it, at least. Anyhow, good luck with the book -- it shall certainly be an interesting read.
Finally, regarding the following frustrated line:
"We're not trying to prepare a court case!!"
Well, you could have fooled me... 
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 233
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 22, 2003 - 6:33 pm: | |
Hi Caz.
With respect, What entrenched, and highly subjective opinions can be derived from that quote I Was just stating the obvious differences between anger of love , and anger of hate.
The former, being one of remorse shared with selfishness, the other being a distinct dislike of the deseased.
I have spent about 39 years involved with this case, and I know a considerable amount of the facts [ I trust], I just try and make intresting observations, that are plausible, after all Leanne and myself are writing a book, and we are both trying to make it not only factual, but hopefully intresting to our pospective readers.
we along with a considerable amount of people, not necessary board members, happen to believe in Barnetts involvement in this case, and we are purely laying out the facts that we see them, in a hopefully intresting format,that will be a talking point in the future.
Regards Richard. |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 276
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 24, 2003 - 10:36 am: | |
Hi All
Congratulations to Richard and Leanne on a forthcoming book; I am not a Barnettist but I will read it with an open mind.
I can't believe we are still going round and round on the grave spitting. It is a charming anecdote told by an elderly woman which may or may not have a grain of truth to it. If it is true it still doesn't really prove a thing, as the spitter could have been anyone.
Cullen's book has a number of anecdotes which are enjoyable to read buy I would consider them of doubtful authenticity. A good example is the woman who truely believed she sold grapes to Jacky
on the night of the double event. We know she is mistaken, yet she has likely told the story so often that she truely believes it.
All The Best
Gary
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Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 637
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 25, 2003 - 1:32 am: | |
G'day Gary,
If a woman believed she sold grapes to 'Jacky' on the morning of Srides murder, that's not so 'doubtful', because of all the comotion that Mathew Packer caused by saying that he sold grapes to the killer. Even if he was lying! Anyone who sold grapes on Berner street that night, would start to believe that they sold to the real jacky, even if they sold grapes to an innocent man.
The woman who told her daughter she saw a grave spitter, didn't say that she saw the 'Ripper' just one man, she didn't even say that it was Joseph Barnett. Richard and I just worked that out using a process of elimination.
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 639
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 5:22 pm: | |
G'day Cary,
With this book Richard and I are writing, we hope not only to please the 'Barnettists', but to introduce some interesting observations that have the potential of starting some new debates!
LEANNE |
Glenn L Andersson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 128
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 26, 2003 - 5:30 pm: | |
Hi Leanne,
"... but to introduce some interesting observations that have the potential of starting some new debates!"
I think you alredy have managed to do that. Just look at the number of posts.
Al the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Brian W. Schoeneman
Inspector
Username: Deltaxi65
Post Number: 296
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 28, 2003 - 2:07 pm: | |
Leanne,
It's good to know that even while I've been gone a bit, some things never change. 
B |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 277
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 29, 2003 - 11:35 pm: | |
Hi Leanne
I'e been out of town and Trevor mentioned your post so I will respond through him.
I never expected your book to be purely a book on Barnett. I believe you are too knowledgeable for that. I did not mean to imply it would be just for Barnettists, in case that is the impression you had.
Gary
(Thanks to Trevor Weatherhead) |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 872
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 5:29 pm: | |
Here is an account of the funeral that may of interest re this thread
Chris
Barking and East Ham Advertiser (UK)
24 November 1888
THE WHITECHAPEL MURDER
The remains of Mary Janet Kelly, who was murdered on the 9th of November, in Miller's-Court, Dorset-street, Spitalfields, have been interred in the Roman Catholic Cemetery at Leytonstone. The body was enclosed in a polished elm and oak coffin, with metal mounts. On the coffin plate was engraved: "Marie Jeanette Kelly, died 9th Nov., 1888, aged 25 years." Upon the coffin were two crowns of artificial flowers and a cross made up of heartsease. The coffin was carried in an open car drawn by two horses, and two coaches followed, from the Shoreditch Mortuary. An enormous crowd of people assembled at an early hour, completely blocking the thoroughfare, and a large number of police were engaged in keeping order. As the coffin appeared, borne on the shoulders of four men, at the principal gate of the church, the crowd was greatly moved. Round the open car in which it was to be placed men and women struggled desperately to touch the coffin. Women with faces streaming with tears cried out "God forgive her!" and every man's head was bared. The site was quite remarkable, and the emotion natural and unconstrained. Two mourning coaches followed, one containing three, and the other five persons. Joe Barnett was amongst them, with someone from M'Carthy's, the landlord; and the others were women who had given evidence at the inquest. After a tremendous struggle, the car, with the coffin fully exposed to view, set out at a very slow pace, all the crowd appearing to move off simultaneously in attendance. The traffic was blocked, and the constables had great difficulty in obtaining free passage for the small procession through the mass of carts and vans and tramcars which blocked the road. The distance from Shoreditch Church to the Cemetery at Leytonstone by road is about six miles, and the route traversed was, Hackney-road, Cambridge Heath, Whitechapel-road, and Stratford. The appearance of the roadway throughout the whole journey was remarkable, owing to the hundreds of men and women who escorted the coffin on each side, and who had to keep up a sharp trot in many places. But the crowd rapidly thinned away when, getting into the suburbs, the car and coaches broke into a trot. The cemetery was reached at two o'clock. The Rev. Father Columban, with two acolytes, and a cross-bearer, met the body at the door of the little chapel at St. Patrick, and the coffin was carried at once to a grave in the north-eastern corner. Barnett and the poor women who had accompanied the funeral knelt on the clay by the side of the grave, while the service was read. The coffin was incensed, lowered, and then sprinkled with holy water, and the simple ceremony ended. The floral ornaments were afterwards raised to be placed upon the grave, and the filling-up was completed in a few moments, and was watched by a small crowd of people. There was a very large concourse of people outside the gates, who were refused admission until after the funeral was over.
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Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 1087
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 03, 2004 - 11:35 pm: | |
Thank you, Chris.
And not a word about any grave spitting, as I suspected - and especially not in connection with Barnett.
I bet it was the sprinkling with holy water that has been blown up...
I am glad to see the magnificent reception poor Mary Kelly got at her funeral. She was absolutely worth it, and it should have pleased her to see those gatherings of people paying their respect. Quite moving.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Chief Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 507
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 1:22 am: | |
HI All
There was a large crowd near the grave which gradually thinned out to a small group of people. There was a large group of people outside the gates. Logically this would indicate that anyone who chose to spit on the coffin would have been seen by the people who lingered at the scene.
I believe we have been expectorating into the wind about this alleged incident for too long.
All The Best
Gary |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1122
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 2:55 am: | |
G'day,
The grave spitting claim/incident is just presented in the opening chapter as it was reported, no speculation there. We then admit that although it is unproven hearsay, it causes us to take a close look at the Barnett/Kelly relationship.
Then the 2nd chapter looks at what is known about the couples childhoods, and ends with them moving in together. Is that alright with everyone? A reader is not forced onto our opinions!
GLENN & GARY: That report does not mention the grave-spitting, because it was observed after the press and onlookers all left! Is it not likey that Barnett was allowed to remain behind to pay his last spi....respects? This male thought he was all alone!
I think trying to say the priest forgot an important part of the service, is trying desperately to prove it wasn't Barnett.
LEANNE |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 655
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 3:31 am: | |
Hi,
It would have been somewhat difficult, for any report of gravespitting , at the time , for the imformation was not presented until 1959.
The report stated, the person , who was seen to have committed this act, stayed behind and parted the boards , with his feet, thus this would give the impression, that this act was carried out , whilst the boards were covering the grave, which raises two points.
a] There must have been a small time period, between the placing of the boards, and then removing them , to fill the grave, and common sence suggests, that the said person was in the immediate area.
b] The perpretrator could not possibly be someone from outside the perimeter of the church, as they were not allowed in , until the grave was filled.
It would be intresting to know, which direction the mourners were facing, Did the priest stand facing the church, or with his back to the church?
When I visited the site, I Stood with my back to the church, and if the women and priest at the service , passed back down to the vacinity of the church, the person [who may?] have committed this insult, would not have been seen, by people standing around that area, he would have been only noticed from his immediate left or right, or from the front.
I am sorry to dwell on this subject, but as our book suggests Barnett as the killer of these women, I Find a suggestion that something like this occured,albeit oral history, refering to the funeral of the last victim , not any others, extremely intresting, and as our suspect was present at the very spot where the alleged incident took place, if a true account, extremely damaging to his defence.
Regards Richard. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2016
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 4:34 am: | |
"The filling-up....was watched by a small crowd of people." Unless we're to suppose that the inner circle of mourners were present, then retired, then returned to watch the filling-up, I would have thought that this article was evidence against the "parting the boards" story.
Robert |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1124
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 6:25 am: | |
G'day Robert,
I'm having alot of trouble trying to work out what you mean by that comment. Why is the article evidence against the parting of the boards story?
LEANNE |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2020
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 7:41 am: | |
Hi Leanne
Well, Barnett could only have parted the boards before the grave was filled in. So for the story to work, the inner circle must have been present, then gone away (including gravediggers) during which time Joe parts the boards and spits, and then the mourners return to watch the filling-in.
The mourners might conceivably have retired (though surely not to a great distance?) to allow Joe a few moments of privacy. But then they're all supposed to have returned to watch the filling-in! It just doesn't sound right to me.
Robert |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 656
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 2:29 pm: | |
Hi Robert.
I do not believe it was inconceivable, that Barnett , being the main mourner[ apparently?] would be left alone to pay his very last respects, to the woman , he shared his life with , the past eighteen months, for a few moments, the priest , and the six women, would have retired to the vacinity of the church,and so would any other party consisting of the men , that were to fill in the grave, and mount flowers.
It would only take, a few seconds, for Barnett to carry out the final act, before joining the others, who were proberly distort, and huddled together, and I Would suggest, that they, including Barnett, were present whilst the fillers in, completed their task, albeit a fair distant away,before departing out of the gates, to a public house, to toast the deseased.
Richard. |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 355
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 3:19 pm: | |
The coffin was incensed, lowered, and then sprinkled with holy water, and the simple ceremony ended. The floral ornaments were afterwards raised to be placed upon the grave, and the filling-up was completed in a few moments, and was watched by a small crowd of people.
We are interested in the events that took place after "the simple ceremony ended". The question is what is meant by afterwards? Does this mean "immediately afterwards" or could it possibly imply a period of time before the floral arrangements were "raised" (whatever that is supposed to mean to be placed upon the grave? Given that the scene still includes onlookers and those waiting outside the gates who were given admittance after the funeral was over, this implication seems to be that the floral ornaments were placed on the grave right after the ceremony ended.
What of the boards? There is no mention. But the wording of the article is strange. How can the flowers be placed "upon" the grave before the grave is filled in with dirt? Wouldn't they have to be placed into the grave if the grave is still open? Unless, of course, the grave was temporarily covered with some boards upon which the flowers were placed!
But then, what do we make of "and the filling-up was completed in a few moments."? Does "in a few moments" refer just to the time it took to shovel the dirt into the grave, or does it refer to the whole scenario, i.e. all the events following the end of the ceremony? It could be either. The phrase "and was watched by a small crowd of people" might imply that these people did not include Barnet and the other women -- since they are not mentioned by name or implication. If this is so, then there could have been a period of time in between placing the flowers upon the grave and filling in the grave, which could give opportunity for the grave-spitting to occur. Why would one cover the grave with boards and place the floral ornaments on these boards if the grave was about to be filled in (necessitating the removal of both boards and flowers)?
It's interesting to note that today -- at least in the US -- a representative of the funeral director remains with the casket at graveside until the grave is filled in. In other words, such an incident couldn't happen today without being noticed.
Andy S.
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Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1125
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 3:33 pm: | |
G'day,
I remember reading somewhere that Kelly's friends retired to a nearby Pub to toast the deceased, and Barnett joined them later. I'll try to find that information again........or was that you Rich? Hopefully I wrote it into the chapter, and I would have included the source.
LEANNE |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Chief Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 657
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 4:29 pm: | |
Hi,
There is a pub situated nowadays close to the cemetary, I remember mentioning to my wife . 'I wonder if this was the place where the mourners fortified themselves,? a few of the ladies present, one of them representing McCarthy her landlord, were proberly, somewhat fortified , before they reached the cemetary.
I Would say there was a period of time , between the covering the grave with boards , and the actual act to fill the grave especially as her common law husband was in attendance.
He proberly remained there, whilst they placed boards over the grave the other mourners , left him , whilst he stood alone [ or so he thought...]
and the final act was carried out, unaware to any one else , except for two teenager girls nearby, who did not report the incident till many years later.
I have said all that I believe.
Regards Richard. |
Kevin Braun
Detective Sergeant
Username: Kbraun
Post Number: 90
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 5:40 pm: | |
Two mourning coaches followed, one containing three, and the other five persons. Joe Barnett was amongst them, with someone from M'Carthy's, the landlord; and the others were women who had given evidence at the inquest.
I wonder why the author used the pronoun "someone" from M'Carthy's, the landlord? Why not a man or a woman from M'Carthy's?
Barnett and the poor women who had accompanied the funeral knelt on the clay by the side of the grave, while the service was read.
Was that "someone" a poor woman or a man who chose not to kneel by the side of the grave?
Kevin |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1126
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 9:02 pm: | |
G'day,
I picked up the information that Julia Venturney was the 'poor woman' and the service was attended by six women, Joseph Barnett and Father Columban.
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 1127
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 04, 2004 - 10:18 pm: | |
G'day,
Here's a sketch taken at Mary Jane Kelly's funeral, showing six women, Joseph Barnett and the father Columban. It appears in Bruce Paley's book 'Jack the Ripper, The Simple Truth':
LEANNE |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 873
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 05, 2004 - 11:17 am: | |
If the following passage from the article is to be trusted:
Two mourning coaches followed, one containing three, and the other five persons. Joe Barnett was amongst them, with someone from M'Carthy's, the landlord; and the others were women who had given evidence at the inquest
then we can can draw up a "guest list" as there were indeed six women who gave evidence at the inquest, which would make up the right number of mourners. The list of those attending would be:
Joseph Barnett
"Someone from McCarthy's
Mary Ann Cox
Elizabeth Prater
Caroline Maxwell
Sarah Lewis
Julia Venturney
Maria Harvey
As the list of those attending seems to be very closely connected from the inquest, the most logical assumption would be that the "someone from McCarthy's" was Thomas Bowyer.
Chris |
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