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Shannon Christopher
Inspector
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 328
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 9:51 pm: |       |
Opal: "I am just surprised that a well-known author and forensic detective would have not seen this, herself."
Opal, I think a real forensic detective would have; however, that isnt the case with Ms Cornball - she started as a reporter for the Charlotte Observer in 1979. Soon she became a police reporter and in 1984 she took a job in the Virginia medical examiner's office. For six years she worked at the morgue, first as a technical writer, then as a computer analyst...
That is from her biography, and appears to be a more accurate description of her forensic training that she leads us to believe.
Shannon |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 799
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 10:08 pm: | |
I agree. "Forensic detective" was to stretch the truth a bit, maybe...
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Opal Elaine Small (Moyer)
Police Constable
Username: Bonedigger
Post Number: 9
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 11:03 pm: | |
I do believe that you are correct, Glenn and Shannon. Still, one would think that, with the experience that she had in the medical examiner's office and at the morgue, she should have been exposed to enough of their work to know that she needed more hard evidence than she had to write this book. Sickert was the only suspect that she addressed in her research. She began the book with Sickert in mind and that was the only direction in which her guns were aimed. It's been a while, since I read the book, but I don't recall any mention of her looking into theories of any other suspects, with the exception of a brief look at the conspiracy theory. She admitted in the first chapter that he was her suspect from the time that she began her book; she went into this with her mind closed to any other solution. Hardly a way for a "forensic detective" to conduct an investigation. Glenn, you are right; that term was stretch. I appologize for my inaccurate wording.
Sincerely,
Bonedigger
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Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 806
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 7:13 pm: | |
No need to apologize, Opal. I see your point about her working in the medical examiner's office. Anyway, you were completely right in your interpretation of the book, I feel.
It is absolutely true that she seem to have made Walter Sickert her target even before she started to study the case. It is also -- as you point out -- evident that she never bothered to take the well-known ripperologists' suspect theories and findings in consideration during her "research". What bothers me the most is that she herself doesen't see this flaw in her research as a problem at all.
I must say, though, that I was a bit disappointed about the quality of her writing, actually. I haven't read the Scarpetta books, but I knew they have a vast following. Her Ripper book, though, I think was quite badly written, almost amateurish in its approach in some passages. Some parts of it, like the historical descriptions of the police department and the criminal psychology -- and also the almost narrative descriptions of the victims' lives and last nights alive, I think was quite acceptable and even good reading. But when she is argumenting for her case, the writing style becomes sloppy and sometimes even childish. I thought that was a bit unexpected from an author of her supposed dignity.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 294
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 6:24 am: | |
Shannon
Now that is interesting! From reading the book and her blurb on other books (my dad is a fan!) I was under the impression that she was an assistant to the medical examiner and took an active part in the work.
My closest friend Lorraine is head of the Histology/Pathology department at St James Hospital here in Dublin. She spends all day with her head in autopsy and biopsy reports, processing test results, arranging the transportation and storage of organs and body parts, and occasionally attends autopsies. By the sound of it she is far more fully involved in the day to day activies of the pathologists than Cornball ever was, and she would never even dream of passing herself off as an expert in the subject. |
Shannon Christopher
Inspector
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 330
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 9:01 am: | |
Alan, Ms Cornball appears to have developed a "larger than life" delusion of grandeur about herself. Here is a much more accurate picture of her life...
http://www.246.dk/cornwell.html
Shannon |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 328
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 9:21 am: | |
Guys,
I just read a page about Patsy and it said that:-
She published Jack the Ripper: Case Closed in 2002 to much controversy, especially within the British art world, where Sickert's work is admired, and also among ripperologists, whom she criticizes as sick and disgusting for their interest in the killings.
Now I hadn't heard that she had said that ripperologists are sick and disgusting. If she thinks that is the case then she is an out right hypocrite. How can she say that when she just wrote a book about Jack the Ripper. I reckon she said that as it would excuse her from actually delving into the details of the murders.
That's got me really angry. Who does she think she is?
Sarah
P.S At the bottom of this page, it has a link to the Casebook with a note next to it saying that it basically disagrees with all of what Patsy says. |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 814
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 6:34 pm: | |
Hi Sarah,
It would be interesting to study the page you refer to. Do you know what it's called or do you have a link to it?
Yes, I read or heard that remark somewhere about her accusing ripperologists of being sick and perverted.
P.S.
Those who still hasn't read Scott E. Medine's entertaining account of a lecture held by Cornwell, where she comments on these Boards, I can recommend that you do. It is among the dissertations (available through Media, Books and Portrait of a Killer) and is called Patricia Cornwell Delivers a Lecture at the University of Tennessee at Knoxville.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 350
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 10:59 am: | |
Glenn,
The link is http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Patricia-Cornwall
It doesn't have too much info though.
Sarah
(Message edited by sarah on December 19, 2003) |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 820
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 19, 2003 - 2:06 pm: | |
OK, Sarah.
Thank you; an interesting read just the same.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 549
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 11:13 am: | |
Guys,
I endorse Glenns suggestion of reading Scott E's experience of the glorified typists lecture.
For what its worth, I agree with Sarah. She is a hypocrite. And what makes it even more galling is the money she is making from these crimes.
Sick and perverted ?
I know I am but what are you ??
Monty
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samantha stringer
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 18, 2003 - 10:08 am: | |
I wonder if she said the "sick and disgusting" quote after her book got such a roasting from ripperologists around the world. My general opinion of her is that she has a cheek to say she has solved the case and that she is definately correct in her opinion, when there are people out there who have studied Jack the Ripper for 30+ years and would never say that they have solved it. The truth is we shall never know for certain unless some amazing piece of new evidence suddenly springs to light - which would be great! Its all speculation, opinion and sensible guesswork. |
Tonie
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, December 21, 2003 - 9:59 am: | |
hi everyone, i dont really know you but i quite agree with what you said about petricia cornwell. ive just finished reading her book, and found it actually quite boring.i would have thought that if she is so sure that walter sickert is jtr than she would have worked a bit harder to persuade us instead of approaching the matter in such a defensive way. she has acted quite immaturely dont you think.
well just felt i had to say that
tonie |
sam stringer
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 12:06 pm: | |
Oh please. Be nice - I'm new. I have already apologised. I cant do any more than that! |
Johnlonghow
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 7:28 pm: | |
I think you all should look at yourselves
Its just a book
No reason to get all mad just because she said she solved the case
If you all think that she didnt solve, whats the big deal?
Its not necessary to call her somethings and say that her writing is awful without reading her other books. Doing that, you are doing the same thing that she did about the case...
I think the "investigations" should be directed in to one suspect the same way that she did only with walter sickert, and than we can have a more deep clue of whom the real killer could have been, instead of looking at thousand of theories, that we know that are stupid but we just cant say that are not true because of our "moral"
Bunch of hypocrites
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Edward Freeman
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 6:56 am: | |
Hello everyone,
Given that some of Cornwell's claims are provably false, I am wondering how Sickert's estate and descendents have reacted to her book. Does anyone know how they have reacted or whether they have considered legal action against her?
All the best,
Edward. |
Bullwinkle
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 26, 2003 - 10:43 pm: | |
Edward,
You can't libel a dead person.
Bullwinkle
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Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 884
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 8:13 pm: | |
Samantha,
No need to apologize for your opinions. Just a few pointers:
"My general opinion of her is that she has a cheek to say she has solved the case and that she is definately correct in her opinion."
She is entitled to her opinion, but she doesen't lay forward her material as opinions, but as facts! The problem doesen't lie in the fact that she claim to have found a reasonable suspect -- the problem lies in that she says he IS Jack the Ripper without a shred of evidence. It is OK to make guesswork, but that is not what Mrs Cornwell is doing.
"there are people out there who have studied Jack the Ripper for 30+ years and would never say that they have solved it."
And that should tell us something about why one shouldn't write "Case Closed" on the cover of the book.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on December 28, 2003)
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Dan Norder
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, December 28, 2003 - 11:31 pm: | |
For what it's worth, the nationmaster.com Encyclopedia link posted above borrowed its information from Wikipedia, an online collaborative open encyclopedia project. The original Cornwell entry was written by a fan who fell for the Sickert theory hook, line and sinker, stating flat out that he did it and that Cornwell proved it. Some other people went in and tried to fix it, while the bulk of the evidence against her case was written by me.
Wikipedia also has entries for Sickert himself and for Jack the Ripper, both of which originally had numerous errors that had to be corrected.
Of course, due to the open nature of the project, other people can just come in and change whatever anyone else wrote (and mine got changed too, but enough remains that it's still somewhat recognizable), so you take your chances if you trust any of it. The entries vary tremendously in quality. |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 893
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 29, 2003 - 10:01 am: | |
Interesting info. Thank you, Dan.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Peter R. A. Birchwood
Sergeant
Username: Pbirchwood
Post Number: 28
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 7:09 am: | |
Edward Freeman:
During the taping of the BBC4 show on Cornwall's book, I said this to her. She hadn't thought about finding any Sickert family members. I subsequently invested some time on the research and paid for work in Germany. Although there are some relatives of the Sickert family alive, they are no closer than 2nd cousins and so would have no interest in this.
Incidentally, it's not quite accurate to say that you can't libel the dead. It depends on the legal jurisdiction.
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Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 541
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 2:10 pm: | |
Hi, Sarah and Glenn:
I attended the Smithsonian lecture by Patricia Cornwell at Lisner Auditorium, Georgetown University, in Washington, D.C., on Tuesday, November 19, 2002, when her book first came out, and I have to admit I was startled by her aspersions about Ripperologists being engaged in anything different to what she is doing. She portrayed herself as pure and only interested in finding the killer of the poor victims while Ripperologists, by contrast, as she implied, had prurient interest in the case or were exploiting it for commercial reasons. I remember thinking, as she spoke from the stage, "But what you doing, lady?" Then when at the end of the lecture the long crocodile of attendees went up to get copies of her book signed, some of them with armfuls of books, a number of which I have reason to believe were sold at inflated prices on ebay afterward (!), her hypocrisy appeared even more reinforced.
Yes, the poor victims, but what about Walter Richard Sickert, whose name has been slurred on the basis of weak evidence and moreover on an absurd contention that, as she said, he could have written "90 percent" of the Ripper letters? When did the man have time to do any paintings, let alone travel round the British Isles posting letters written in all types of writing styles, on different paper? As a number of people have said, the most that she may have proved is that Sickert may have hoaxed a letter or two.
All the best
Chris George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
(Message edited by ChrisG on January 03, 2004) |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 917
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 10:07 pm: | |
Hi, Chris George
I absolutely agree with you. Not really much to add to that.
She doesn't seem to be the slightest worried about slandering the name of a "suspect" she really have no evidence against at all.
What you report from her lectures seem to be compatible with what we hear from other similar experiences on the matter. I think it is a disgrace that she seem to be so utterly uncritical to her own findings -- and herself!
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 327
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 05, 2004 - 7:21 am: | |
Hi Chris/Glenn
A few years back I was at a was at a workshop with the Irish playwright Thomas Kilroy. I have never liked Kilroy's work and on meeting him I discovered why, I found him to be a thoroughly repulsive person. Kilroy wrote a hugely successful play called "The Secret Life of Constance Wilde" about Oscar Wilde's wife. In the play a great deal is made of Constance having been sexually abused by her father when she was a child. I asked Kilroy where he got this information from and he admitted that he made it up but said "people know this is a work of fiction, they will understand that it may not have really happened." I took great offence at this, pointing out that Neil Simon put it best in his own play Biloxi Blues, that if it is written down then people will believe it, because the thought process of the ordinary person goes "if it were not true, why would they write it down?" I therefore roundly abused Mr Kilroy for slandering the name of an almost certainly innocent man and was pleasantly surprised when many others present joined me in doing so.
This, in my opinion, is precisely what Patricia Cornwell has done, and to those who ask the question of why we pour so much scorn on Cornwell when we fail to do the same for others who have "named" the Ripper, it is precisely this, that just as for most of those who saw "The Secret Life of Constance Wilde" her father will now forever be an incestuous paedophile, so for the majority of Cornwell's "fans" Walter Sickert will forever be an evil mass murderer, when in reality he was guilty of nothing more than an intense interest in the case, and if that makes you the Ripper then everyone here must have been the Ripper.
PS. Chris, I haven't recieved that CD. Have you sent it? |
Shelly
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, January 03, 2004 - 4:23 pm: | |
Got the book, Portrait of a killer as a Christmas Pressie. I have recenly found an intrest in the subject and thought I'd come to my own conclusion as to who I thought Jack was? Problem is Patricia's uses the whole book to point out ONE SUSPECT!!! ONE that's it! Now I have to go and buy another book to learn about all the other possibilites!!! Any recomendations?? |
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