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Jarndyce
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 11:06 am: |       |
I'm putting this out in the wind for two reasons: one, I need a missing fact in order to make my theory whole and two, I need to know if it stands up to reason.
The name is James Green and I can place the name at two crime scenes (Nichols and Chapman). However 'James Green' is a very common name, one would think. Here's what I know, all from the standard literature:
Green's mother and sisters lived at the house in front of which Mary Nichols was murdered. Though he seems to have lodgings elsewhere, he is at this address at the time of the murder (he's the man who washes her blood off the cobblestones). James Green is also the name of one of the witnesses at the Chapman inquest. When her body is discovered, he is one of three laborers waiting for work to begin to be summoned for help.
This leaves us with a few questions, most notably, is this the same man? If so, how did the laborers arrive in their positions before being summoned? Did they arrive together? How big was any time gap between the arrival of two and Green's?
A fledgeling killer's first ventures are said to be made close to home. At the first crime scene, he's Macbeth-close to the victim. If I remember right, there's also something about this Green's mother's personality as domineering or authoritarian, that made me wonder about what kind of issues he may have had and why, if he had other lodgings, was he there that night?
I've never seen his name listed as a suspect anywhere and I'm erring on the side of caution that there's a good reason for it - like, we're talking about two different people.
On the other hand, no one's ever stepped up to say they're not two people either. Instead, we get mysterious gold watches with initials etched into the backsides of their backsides. I appeal to the board's sense of baloney detection. My theory uses up a lot of armchair psych energy. I have an easy time imagining a young guy with mother-issues, sister siblings, and a chip for revenge on his shoulder- I see that same chip for revenge in all of the murders. What big obvious thing am I missing that no one has ever brought this up before?
All of my theory is based on the surviving recollections of what I gleaned from JTR A-Z, and a few others. There's no conspiracy theory but I do think this may be a rock we've failed to turn over before.
Somebody, please take the wind out of my sails! |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 303
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 1:54 pm: | |
Interesting find. Yet, surely there were dozens of people that were at the scenes of at least two of the murders, which happened in such close proximity.
But where do you get the information that "James Green" washed the blood stains off the pavement or was at the scene of the crime. I saw a newspaper account that claimed that one of Emma Green's sons washed the blood away, but it does not give a name for the son.
It is worth checking out.
Andy S.
|
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 494
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 3:00 pm: | |
Hi, Jarndyce
This might be a longshot that the James Green involved in the Nichols and Chapman cases was the same man. However, let's see what we can find out.
First, you say that the James Green, son of Emma Green, was living with her in the Buck's Row when the Nichols murder occurred. A to Z though gives an address for the James Green who was the witness at the Chapman inquest as 36 Acton Street, Burdett Road, so that might indicate they were two different men (The Daily Telegraph, Tuesday, September 11, 1888 report on Annie Chapman's Inquest states that Green gave as his address Ackland Street, Burdett Road, while The Times, Thursday, 13 September 1888 gives it as 36 Acton Street, Burdett Road, which bears out A to Z).
The 1881 census lists a James Green, daughter of Emma Green as follows--
James GREEN
Birth Year <1858>
Birthplace Bethnal Green, Middlesex, England
Age 23
Occupation Carman
Marital Status U <unmarried>
Head of Household Emma GREEN
Relation Son
Source Information:
Dwelling 10 Spring Garden Rd
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341105
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0478 / 114
Page Number 40
It seems likely that this was the man in Buck's Row and that he and his mother relocated between 1881 and 1888. By 1888, he would have been age 30.
Unfortunately I have been unable to find another James Green in the 1881 census who might have been the other man but that does not mean that they were not two different James Greens, or that you are correct and it was one and the same man.
I should think though that if it was known that the same man was involved in both murders, even if peripherally (washing the blood from the pavement in Buck's Row and involved in finding Chapman's body in Hanbury Street), this might have been mentioned by the press.
In fact the information we have on what happened in Buck's Row would suggest it is not the same man. Specifically, it is stated in The Times, Tuesday, 18 September 1888 (my emphasis):
"Mrs. Emma Green, living at New-cottage, Buck's-row, stated that she was a widow, and occupied the cottage next to where the deceased was found. Her daughter and two sons lived with her. Witness went to bed about 11 o'clock on the night of Thursday, August 30, and one of her sons went to bed at 9 o'clock and the other one at a quarter to 10. Her daughter went to bed when she did, and they occupied the same room. It was a front room on the first floor. Witness did not remember waking up until she heard a knock at the front door about 4 o'clock in the morning. She opened the window and saw three or four constables and two or three other men. She saw the body of deceased lying on the ground, but it was still too dark to clearly distinguish what had happened. Witness heard nothing unusual during the night, and neither her sons or daughter awoke.
By the Jury. - She was a light sleeper, and had a scream been given she would have heard it, though people often went through Buck's-row, and there was often a great noise in it. She did not believe there was any disorderly house in Buck's-row. She knew of no disorderly house in the immediate neighbourhood.
By the CORONER. - She saw her son go out, directly the body was removed, with a pail of water to wash the stains of blood away. A constable was with him."
Best regards
Chris George
(Message edited by ChrisG on December 22, 2003) |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 181
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 4:49 pm: | |
Wowsers! Great find! And it was right under our noses the whole time. What is a carman? This might have bearing. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1624
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 4:56 pm: | |
You get these coincidences. Burdett road itself seems to come up on about five different occasions. I can't remember them all now, but I think that apart from the Green business, there are also references to it in connection with
Ada Wilson and Emma Smith.
"Old man" comes up about three times.
Diana, I always thought a carman was a man who drove a cart.
Robert |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 308
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 5:08 pm: | |
With all due respect and no offense intended, I don't quite think we are ready for "wowsers" yet! 
To my knowledge we have not established:
1. That the Emma Green living at Buck's Row had a son named James who lived with her at the time.
2. That "James" Green washed away the bloodstain (the article just said that one of Emma's unnamed sons did so).
3. That even if such a James Green did exist, there is any connection to the James Green involved in the discovery of Chapman's body. (If the James Green discovered by Chris above is our bucket man of Buck's Row, he is not the right age to be Chapman's James Green and he also resides at the wrong address).
Still worth checking into, but lots of discrepancy.
Andy S.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1625
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 5:54 pm: | |
Re Green, Sugden says that the blood (or rather, some of it) was washed away by one of Mrs Green's sons who worked at the stables. I don't know what makes him say that the son worked at the stables.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 776
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 7:18 pm: | |
Chris
Here are some census finding about the Green family you mentioned:
1891 census
81 Bridge Street, Mile End Old Town
Emma Green aged 58 born London
No occupation
Widow
George Green (Son) aged 30 born London
Rough Stuff Cutter
Single
Elizabeth M Green (Daughter) aged 24 born London
Tailoress
Single
Jane A Daltry aged 72 born London
Needlewoman
Widow
This compares with the Green household in 1881 census as follows:
10 Spring Garden Road, London
Emma Green aged 48 born Whitechapel
Widow
James Green (Son) aged 23 born Bethnal Green
Carman
George Green (Son) aged 20 born Bethnal Green
Cutter (Roughstuff)
Elizth. Green (Daughter) aged 14 born Mile End
Machinist
Sarah Mason (Mother in Law) aged 84 born Kent Road
William Sinnets (Nephew) aged 22 born Whitechapel
Cooper
Henry Sinnets (Nephew) aged 17 born Whitechapel
Packer
James Green is listed in 1881 as 23 and unmarried
In 1891 census there are two 33 year old James Green entries with a place of birth of Bethnal Green. The first of these is married with an 11 year old daughter and is described as a chair maker, which would seem to rule him out. The second is a house decorator from hackney and again has children over 10 years old. |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 299
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 5:47 am: | |
If I remember correctly the James Green involved in the Chapman case was a Packing Case maker. From that to chair maker wouldn't be a huge career leap to make in three years.
Just out of interest, here is a description of the Annie Chapman James Green taken from the East London Observer of 15th September. If anyone could find a description of the other James Green to see if there is any obvious mismatch.
James Green, a fellow workman of the last witness, was quite the reverse of his predecessor - quiet and inactive. He stood with his hands behind him holding his coat-tails. Of medium height, his hair was cut short and neatly plastered down, while the freshness of his color was somewhat added to by the black and red scarf which encircled his neck. He wore a long black coat and corduroy trousers, and seemed greatly relieved when he was allowed to take his seat beside the police and witnesses. |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 497
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 9:42 am: | |
Hi, all
Absent of information to the contrary, I view it as highly unlikely that this man or either of these men (more likely) could have been the killer. On the other hand, I think it does make for an interesting exercise to see what we can find out about him (them) and to rule out the James Green in the Nichols case being the same one who testified at Annie Chapman's inquest. Therefore, I thank you, Alan, for posting that description of the James Green who gave evidence at the Chapman inquest.
Andrew, you stated that the Buck's Row James Green was "not the right age to be Chapman's James Green" but, may I ask, do we know how old the fellow was who testified about the Hanbury Street murder? I have not seen an age given for him.
All the best
Chris |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 309
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 10:15 am: | |
Hi Chris,
It looks like I goofed. The Eastern Post and City Chronicle for Saturday 15 September, 1888 in describing the inquest says:
James Green, 36, Acland Street, Burdett Road, said he was a packing-case maker, in the employ of Mr. Bailey, Hanbury Street.
At first glance I thought the "36" referred to his age, but now I see from the way other addresses are presented in the same article that the 36 is the house number of his address. My mistake! In the US we would not place a comma between the house number and street name -- which is what threw me.
But I still don't see any indication that one "James Green" washed away the blood stain on Buck's Row. One news item said that one of Emma's sons did this, but it does not give a first name. So, we don't know that James was on the scene at Buck's Row at all. From the information you have uncovered, it appears likely he was not.
Andy S.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1629
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 10:38 am: | |
Hi
The 1901 census has two James Green Carmen living in Bethnal Green - one age 39, born London, and another age 40, born Stepney E, London (there is also another 40 year old carman, but he was born Southwark, living in Putney).
There was also a 41 year old James Green packing case maker born London St Georges, living St Mary Stratford, Bow.
Robert |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 498
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 11:06 am: | |
Hi, Andrew, Robert, Jarndyce, et al.:
Andrew, thanks for clarifying that you were confused by the address listed for the James Green who appeared at the Chapman inquest, where it said, "James Green, 36, Acland Street, Burdett Road," making it seem like his age was 36, when in fact no. 36 Acland Street is meant. I have to say I find this styling of address and name confusing as well but I am glad we straightened out that we don't actually have an age for that James Green.
Robert, it looks to me that the 41-year-old James Green packing case maker born London St Georges, living St Mary Stratford, Bow, listed in the 1901 census might be the fellow who testified at Annie's inquest. Would you care to post the full details about him? Unfortunately at age 41 that would make him the same age in 1901 as the fellow who was Emma Green's son if the 1881 listing for an Emma (mother) and James (son) is right for the mother and son who lived in Buck's Row in 1888.
To clarify, I am not ruling out Emma's son James having been the bloke who washed the blood away in Buck's Row. We need Jarndyce to cite his or her source for the information that it was James Green who did that. Jarndyce, could you please do that? Thanks!
All the best
Chris
(Message edited by ChrisG on December 23, 2003)
(Message edited by ChrisG on December 23, 2003) |
Jason Scott Mullins
Detective Sergeant
Username: Crix0r
Post Number: 69
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 11:40 am: | |
Hello All -
While I'm not up on my witness testimonies for personal reasons, didn't one witness report seeing a man with a red handkerchief or scarf round his neck?
crix0r |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 313
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 11:40 am: | |
OK, lets start putting facts together.
1. The 1881 census lists an Emma Green from Whitechapel living with two sons and a daughter, though not at Buck's Row. One of the sons is named James Green, aged 23, a carman.
2. News accounts in 1888 describe an Emma Green who lived with her two sons and one daughter at Buck's Row. One of the sons washed away the bloodstain. It would appear likely that this is the same Emma Green and family and that James still lived with his mother. [Whether James actually washed away the bloodstain is immaterial if this assumption is correct].
3. Between 1888 and 1891 James moved out of his mother's home, his mother and the rest of the family having also moved from Buck's Row.
4. In 1891 a 33-year old James Green who is a chair maker appears in the census (do we have an address?). Unfortunately, he has an 11-year old daughter. Since there is no mention of an infant in the 1881 census, this does not appear to be the same man (although there are plausible explanations, such as a step-child, etc.).
5. A James Green of 36, Acland Street, Burdett Road testified as a witness in 1888 at the Chapman inquest. This man was a packing case maker, which is similar to being a chair maker. Unfortunately, he does not reside at Buck's Row. This could be our James the chair maker with the 11-year old daughter, but it seems unlikely that it is James the son of Emma since he lives at the wrong address. He also is not a carman (though he might have changed occupations since 1881).
Conclusion: There were numerous James Greens running around the East End between 1881 and 1891. There appears to have been a James Green at the site of the Nicholls murder and a James Green at the site of the Chapman murder. It is unlikely, though not impossible, that these are the same man.
Andy S.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1631
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 23, 2003 - 2:10 pm: | |
Hi Chris, everyone
The address is 3 Caxton St, St Mary Stratford Bow
John W. Allam, Head, W, age 36, born London Stepney, Telegraphist GPO
Annie E. Allam, sister of head, S, age 40, born London St Georges, Costume Maker
Alice R. Green, sister of head, M, age 38, born Surrey Rotherithe (sic)
James R. Green, brother in law of head, M, age 41, born London St Georges, packing case maker
Lilian A. Green, niece of head, S, age 13, born London Limehouse
Albert I. Green, nephew of head, S, age 4, born London Bow
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1639
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 6:07 am: | |
The only James Green I can find in the 1881 census who looks likely to have been the future packing case maker, is a James Green age 21 born Shoreditch, market porter, unmarried, living at the home of his brother Richard Brooks. So we have two brothers with different surnames!
Robert |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 504
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 9:36 am: | |
Hi, Robert:
It would be interesting to know whether the James Green you found in the 1881 census, then aged 21, born Shoreditch, market porter, unmarried, living at the home of his brother, Richard Brooks, became the packing case maker who testified at the Annie Chapman inquest in 1888, and possibly is the same man who is listed in the 1901 census as James R. Green, brother in law of head (John W. Allam), M, age 41, born London St Georges, packing case maker. The ages match although the place of birth is not quite identical. By the way, possibly James Green and Richard Brooks had different surnames because they were half brothers?
I did find the Allam family in the 1881 census with John W. Allam, then aged 16, an under cellarman, living with his sister Alice R. Allam (the future Alice R. Green), then 18, a machinist, with sister Ann E., 20, a needlewoman (later a costume maker), with their parents, Ann E. and John Allam, at 9 Trafalgar Square, Middlesex. The father, John Allam, 49, was a waterman with H.M. Customs.
I trawled through the listings for some 1,300 names of men named James Green in the 1881 British census last night so Jarndyce's original premise that the James Green in Buck's Row and the one who testified at Annie Chapman's inquest looks unlikely given the commonness of the name.
All the best
Chris George
(Message edited by ChrisG on December 24, 2003) |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 304
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 11:13 am: | |
Andy
Regarding the change of occupation, I can't give the reference because I am currently at my folks house in the UK and don't have my files with me, but I found in one of the newspaper reports last night a comment saying that the blood was washed away by "a carman named Green", so it sounds as though the answer to that one is "not". |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 315
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 11:17 am: | |
Thanks Alan. I suppose it might be possible that James' brother was also a carman and that James had moved on to other things. But it is not likely.
Andy S.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1645
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 3:35 pm: | |
Hi Chris
Yes, I dare say it's just a coincidence. Interesting though.
Robert |
RosemaryO'Ryan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 6:43 pm: | |
Hi All,
Maybe I'm just a party-pooper :-) but I think I know a real suspect when I 'see' him (her). So while we have this thread for a brand new suspect...HOLD THE PRESSES!
I have sent a CD to Mr Ryder which details an actual artifact which in turn detail other artifacts that may be of interest to the Ripperologists of the future. It is my modest contribution to the Casebook!
THE NEW SUSPECT IS SEBASTIAN ZIANI DE FERRANTI...
residing at Deptford in 1888.
ILLUMINATUS**********brightsparkus.
Rosey :-) |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 169
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 10:27 am: | |
has anyone looked on the 1901 census for england for a james ands emma green
jennifer |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Inspector
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 170
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 27, 2003 - 10:30 am: | |
has anyone looked on the 1901 census for england for a james ands emma green
jennifer |
Brad Kelley
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 8:22 pm: | |
Hi all was reading account of the Chapman murder and was struck by the fact that everybody who was involved with the discovery of the body early on was described as being sick or going for help... but from the account i read james green is mentioned as being summoned and then not mentioned again. I find that strange for what is's worth and do think the coincidence should be investigated further...certainly finding a person of the same name at 2 sites is more suspicious than half the nutty theories floating around these boards...thanks |
brad kelley
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, August 19, 2004 - 12:18 am: | |
if we have the same james green here call me nuts but i think odds are we have jack. laugh away. |
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