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Shannon Christopher
Inspector
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 317
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 6:21 pm: |       |
Robert, problem is that we dont know how much blood Joe got on him. If there is an argument to be used for his innosence, that would be it, for how could someone be covered in blood not be noticed. My argument for it, is that the temp was only around 45 that day and rainy that night. A coat would have been in order. Do I think he took it off before the attack; possibly, but also that a coat in the Whitechapel slums would not have been noticed with blood, especially if it was a darker colour.
As for using the knife, it doesnt take any expert knowledge when all you're doing is hack and slash (with regards to Mary). If you are refering to the other victims, he didnt need any knowledge to insert a knife into the lower pelvic area and pull it upwards.
Shannon |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1526
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 7:27 pm: | |
Hi Shannon
One problem is how he walked through the streets with blood on him. A bigger problem is how he got cleaned up suffciently to pass Abberline's examination.
Surely, as he yanked each organ out and tore each piece of flesh off, little spots of blood would have got on his face, in his hair, etc, from inertia - like a dog shaking its coat. Again, if he plunged his hands into the body, and then later tipped his hands upwards, blood would have run up his arms, under his shirt sleeves.
Blood would have been down his fingernails. It may have fallen down into his shoes. You see what I mean?
Robert |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 993
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 12:29 am: | |
G'day,
'One problem is how he walked through the streets with blood on him.'
I said this before and I'll say it again: He would have taken off his coat, and if he didn't take off his shirt, he just had to swap it afterwards with one of the men's shirts that Maria Harvey left, wipe his hands and knife, then burn his bloody shirt! How many hours passed before Abberline made his examination?
Blood wouldn't have spurted out everywhere, as once she was dead her heart most definately would have stopped pumping!
The idea that the Ripper had expert medical knowledge came only after Catharine Eddowes's inquest, and the fact that he knew how to locate the kidney. Couldn't he have just been lucky?
LEANNE |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 462
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 3:54 am: | |
Hi,
We will never know the amount of blood that was on the perpretrator, after Millers court, if the murder was unpremeditated, I would imagine the killer, would be in a fine mess, and proberly left the court in a bloodsoaked condition.
But if this murder, was planned, then the killer, would have made provisions to evade capture, spare clothing,towels,he obviously had a plan to get away, without obvious suspicion.
Anyway whoever the killer was, managed to avoid capture at the event, and afterwards, so it could not have been an impossible task.
Richard. |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 482
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 4:00 am: | |
Sarah,
Yes I do read your mind.
...and I would like to request that you stop thinking that thought. Im having my Brekkie here.
Im with LEANNE regarding the blood. Great big bloody (pardon the pun) overcoat.
Also, LEANNE, did you know that the organs in the human body are different colours? He may have took the kidney away to match his curtains !!
Monty
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1527
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 4:00 am: | |
Leanne, what a charmed life Barnett must have led. He goes over to his girlfriend's, loses all control of himself, skeletonises her, and then lo and behold, there's a nice clean shirt waiting for him to change into. What's more, he recovers his senses in time to see the possibilities of swapping it for his own. But he wouldn't have been wearing Harvey's shirt when Abberline examined him, surely?
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1528
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 4:05 am: | |
Richard, yes the murderer did get away with it. But I don't think he was questioned by the police soon afterwards.
Robert |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 463
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 4:15 am: | |
Hi Robert,
If Barnett was her killer, he as I understand it ,was infact on his way to visit Kelly, when his sister-in-law, informed him of a murder in the court, If guilty of that crime, he must have felt confident of his appearance, and quite prepeared to be put under suspicion, so he obviously found a way to throughly clean himself from head to toe, and wear a complete change of clothing.
I agree that it sounds hard to accept that considering, the aweful murder, he would have had enough coolness to appear normal, but in order for him to escape the hangman, he had no choice.
Richard. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1530
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 4:41 am: | |
Hi Richard
You say that Joe planned the murder. If he planned it, he couldn't have known in advance that he wouldn't be seen (especially in the morning), and he wouldn't have known how long it would be before the police came looking for him.
Robert |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 994
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 5:01 am: | |
G'day,
How normal do you think he appeared to Abberline? The woman he loved had just been mutilated. How normal was he expected to be? He would have been an emotion mess, and would have been excused for being so. No one would have seen it as guilt!
He would have had plenty of time to pop around the corner to Buller's, put one of his own shirts on, (if he had more than one), perhaps pretend to have some breakfast, (meals weren't at set times), and then said: "Hey, I'll go and visit Mary now!"
LEANNE |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1531
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 5:31 am: | |
Hi Leanne
Doesn't he have a bath? Doesn't he change any other clothes?
Are you saying he'd really have been shook up, or just pretending?
In order to avoid confusion, are you still going for the night time scenario, Leanne? At last count the mornings were leading the nights 2 - 1.
Robert |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 247
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 6:03 am: | |
That is a very good point by Leanne. If Joe was the murderer then the last thing he would want to do was appear normal. Appearing normal after your girlfriend has just been hacked to death would be tantamount to an admission of guilt. |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 265
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 6:03 am: | |
Leanne,
I've just had a thought. Why was Joe on his way to Mary's anyway? When Mrs Maxwell saw Mary (or whoever) she remarked that she was up earlier than usual so if it was usual for Mary to sleep late why would Joe go to visit her in the morning?
Maybe by 10.45 she would have been up, I'm just guessing at that but Mrs Maxwell remarked that 8.30 or whenever it was again was very early for her. I would have thought that Mary would usually slept until mid - late afternoon considering her profession, in fact I'm sure I read somewhere that this was her custom but I may have to check on that.
Sarah |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 995
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 7:25 am: | |
G'day,
Let's keep in mind that it was the big 'Lord Mayors day'.
ROBERT: What's this 'night time scenario'. If she was murdered at 4:00a.m., it wasn't Thursday night anymore. People would have been up preparing for the big event!
I think people in those low-class, private lodging houses had communal baths, a sponging, but I'll have to check that. They were extremely simple set-ups.
He would have really been shook up, because of what he did!...What he was driven to do!
SARAH: Joe would have been on his way to Mary's because that's what he was known to do, and it was a special day. If Mrs. Maxwell did see Mary, and not someone she thought was Mary, she could have been up preparing for the big day!
LEANNE |
Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 484
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 8:06 am: | |
LEANNE,
Never really saw the relevance of the Big Lord Mayors Day.
What would they be up preparing ?
Going on a bender ?
Their wares ?
Other than going out to sell a few items, have a drink or wave at a load of pompous berks who helped the Eastenders plight no end travelling through their manor, I dont think the Lord Mayors day would have had a huge impact on the average Eastender.
They had livings to be made.
So Again, what preperation ?
Monty
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Caroline Anne Morris
Chief Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 525
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 8:11 am: | |
Hi All,
If Joe planned to kill Mary, hack her to pieces and steal her heart away, he knew he would be putting in the performance of his life within hours, in order to play the most horrified and grief-stricken ex-lover of all time. The irony here is that he would need to be coolness under pressure personified while pretending to lose his cool like never before.
If, on the other hand, Joe’s custom was to carry a sharp knife on his person, and if he struck Mary in a sudden rit of fealous jage, the realisation of the enormity of what he had just done would no doubt have provided the genuine grief that would get him through the questioning ahead. But oddly, it could not have been accompanied by any signs of remorse, or the kind of agitation that would have set alarm bells ringing in even the dullest copper’s brain. One might have expected Joe to be a bag of nerves, getting his story in a right old mucking fuddle, or even breaking down and confessing. But not a bit of it.
So either way, if Joe did murder Mary, he surely deserves an Oscar along with the rope.
And I keep coming back to Peter Sutcliffe. The argument is often trotted out that the police questioned the Yorkshire Ripper repeatedly and were satisfied with his accounts, not because he was supremely adept at fooling them or anything, but probably because they were still waiting and hoping to hear that eerie Geordie voice first hand. But does anyone here seriously think there’s a cat in hell’s chance that the police would have failed to suspect and nail Sutcliffe had his wife been found in their bed with a fatal hammer blow to the head?
Love,
Caz
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1532
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 8:45 am: | |
Hi all
Likewise, Joe is supposed to have gone into another dimension by butchering Mary, on the spur of the moment. I agree that would have been enough to make him all shook up when talking to Abberline.
The trouble is, inbetween the murder and the interview Joe is required to go all cunning and clear-thinking - changing shirts, burning the bloody shirt, nipping off to hide the knife and heart, nipping back to Buller's to have a bath and change his clothes, then feigning astonishment when he hears of the murder.....
Will the real Joe Barnett please stand up?
Robert |
Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 268
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 8:49 am: | |
Leanne,
Maybe I didn't put that correctly. I meant that maybe it was suspicious of Joe to be going to Mary's that early. Also, why would Mary be up for the Lord Mayor's Day? What could she possibly do? Nobody would be needing her services during the day and is she was planning to get up so early why was she up so late?
Sarah |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 464
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 1:25 pm: | |
Hi,
Has it not occured to you all , that Barnett, called on Kelly in the morning , expecting to find her , as her custom in bed, with her clothes folded on the same chair as normal, when he did he found her not there , so simply waited,till she returned, and was either told by Kelly that she felt unwell, so he said get back into bed, I will look after you, or mayby he said to her 'You look awful Marie' go back to bed, keep warm . i will light the fire', regarding fuel. Did not her landlord remark that he was a coal porter?.[ at least at one time] mayby he was able to get the odd bag of coal for her on occassions.
Richard. |
Mike E.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 7:37 pm: | |
How about the "Lizzie Borden" theory? It's been theorized that she hacked up her parents when she was naked,  so the blood didn't splatter all over her clothes. So, Joe (or JTR) simply took his clothes OFF before he hacked Mary up.  Any blood that splattered on him, didn't get near his clothes this way, as he was naked. Pretty expected for him to get naked, considering Mary's profession. After he was done slaughtering her, he wipes himself down a little, puts his clean clothes back on, and walks out the door. Or, if he was wearing clothes, he puts on one of the other clean sets of clothes already in the room, burns  the bloody ones he was wearing when he hacked her up,and walks out the door to never be suspected.... |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 996
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 4:21 pm: | |
G'day,
Mary's neighbour, Elizabeth Prater said that Mary remarked to her: "I hope it will be a fine day tomorrow, as I want to go to the Lord Mayor's Show." It is believed that Maria Harvey left those clothes for her to sell. What would Mary want with a boys shirt and a little child's white petticoat?
Many people wanted to see the parade, many people would have been wandering around the neighbourhood, and everyone who had something to sell would have expected a better day than usual.
That's another reason why Barnett would have been up early - to set up stalls. I think he was found in a nearby pub, wasn't he?
LEANNE |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 435
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 6:53 pm: | |
Hi Mike
There was a made for T.V. movie back in the 80's that depicted Lizzie killing her father and step-mother while she was nude. Obviously this was done to explain why Lizzie was not splattered with blood after she sounded the alarm about the murders.
Recall that Lizzie Borden was caught burning a dress shortly after the murders. Her sister, Emma walked in on her while she was disposing of the dress. She claimed the dress was paint stained and exclaimed somewhat incongruously "Oh Emma, why did you let me do it?"
If Lizzie did kill her parents, and only absorbed a modest amount of blood on her clothes, I think it is plausible that Jack could have killed MJK while clothed and then put on an overcoat and gloves and exited the scene of the murder. If the murder took place at 4 a.m. and he left around 6 a.m. This would have allowed him to depart under the relative cover of darkness.
All The best
Gary
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Sarah Long
Inspector
Username: Sarah
Post Number: 276
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 9:34 am: | |
Mike,
How could he have known that there would be a clean set of clothes in the room though?
Sarah |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 998
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 6:34 pm: | |
G'day Sarah,
It depends on whether or not he went there with full intensions of killing her. Then again Mrs. Harvey was there when he visited her earlier in the evening.
LEANNE |
Dan Norder
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 3:34 am: | |
Shannon wrote:
"I or anyone else on these boards can assume anything we want. Some of us can even assume enough to write a book about it... "
Well, yes, of course you are free to assume any little thing you cook up. People can and have assumed that Lewis Carroll did it, or aliens, or whatnot. But if you want to state with any authority that it happened the way you claim, you need good evidence. You are conspicuously lacking in that department.
"I am assuming that Inspector Abberline knows his job well enough to know when he states that a "large amount" of clothing had been burned that he knows the difference between freshly burned material and cold ashes that have been there for some time."
The problem with this theory is that cold ashes in a fireplace that becomes hot burning other things will get hot too and there is no way to tell them apart, at least not with anything Abberline had at his disposal and I'm not sure if it could be done even today.
"5 minutes to do the mutilation is not only an assumption its a relatively accurate one."
LOL, well, if you assume it to be accurate, then I guess you can call it accurate.
"Lets say Mary was hacked 100 times by her killer with whatever instrument the killer used; knife, axe, meat cleaver, whatever..."
I won't quote the whole thing you typed up, but I can't imagine how you think what you described can produce the body as seen. What you describe would be something with 100 holes in it, not flesh carved away from bone, face cut up, organs removed and placed in an orderly fashion, etc.
"Not that you have ever seen a knife fight or a person use one"
I can assure you I've seen people use a knife before...
"A meat packer can completely disembowel a cow in 5 minutes and a cow is approx 4 times larger than MJK was. "
Someone who has done the exact same movements before after lots of experience, sure. If MJK were victim number fifteen with the same extensive mutilations, sure, maybe 5 minutes.
"About the blood, when have you ever slipped on DRIED blood?"
Having never slipped on wet blood either my answer wouldn't be a definitive answer on what is possible or not. If there were enough of it there so that a layer or little lumps of it could come loose from the rest it could certainly happen. That of course doesn't even take into account my points that other bodily fluids and fecal matter (or, now that I think of it, even stray solid bits, like a bit of spleen or whatever) could be involved in the slipping or the idea that the blood wasn't dry.
But oh well, believe whatever you want. If you care about trying to prove it, though, you have a ways to go. |
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