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Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 96
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 8:47 am: |       |
Harry, Your dead on the money.. Killers select their victim based on THEIR perception of the victim, and we have no idea what that is. Humans make mistakes every day about others based on any number of factors, its only human nature, what is to prevent the killer from making the same mistake when selecting a victim?
Shannon |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 718
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 6:28 pm: | |
G'day Shannon,
Over recent years, criminologists have studied serial murderers and identified 7 key phases or stages of behaviour. These stages become the killers way-of-life, and set him apart from normal people.
The first stage is called 'The Aura Phase', in which the killer becomes cut-off from all stimuli and enters his own world.
The second stage is called 'The Trolling Phase', in which he searches for a victim. He goes to a place where he is most likely to find the type of victim he is looking for. While in this phase, a serial killer is VERY ALERT, FOCUSED, and his every move is DIRECTED. He will stalk his victim until he is certain that she is the 'type'.
This is what I feel the Ripper would have done with Kate. I believe he was interrupted after he slit Strides throat and before he entered 'The Totem Phase', (the stage in which the killer tries to prolong the feeling of triumph by mutilating the corpse). He would be more determined to succeed in finding the right type of victim. He could have stalked her until he was sure!
LEANNE |
Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 98
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 11:03 pm: | |
Leanne, Are you aware of the "cooling off phase?" Its when a serial killer either completed a good kill or is interupted in the middle of a kill and has to retreat. In either case, the cooling off period is from several days to several weeks... Would love to see an example of a cooling off period of 30 - 45 minute...
Shannon |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 720
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 4:27 am: | |
G'day,
SHANNON: You seem to be referring to what this book I'm holding calls 'The Depression Phase'. It gives the example of Ted Bundy, who confessed that he never really got what he hoped for after each kill. After the 'high' experienced during the murder, the victim ceases to represent what the killer thought she represented, and he becomes the real victim.
This book does say that it can last for days or weeks, but how many serial killers who never got to complete the 'Totem Phase' could have been studied for this research?
By accepting the Berner Street murder as an interrupted Ripper job, I can easily understand that he decided to murder another woman that same morning, to complete a successful 'cycle'.
LEANNE |
Alan Sharp
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 53
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 5:19 am: | |
Leanne
At the risk of starting another argument (we've had enough of those on here recently!) I'm still pretty sure that the book you are holding is "Serial Killers" by Joel Norris, a book which has been discredited so many times it is getting beyond a joke.
Norris's seven stages do ring true for certain types of killers but there is no way they can be taken as a general rule, there are way too many documented cases which do not fit. Also, if you read through the pages where he gives brief details of serial killers through the ages you quickly realise how laughably bad his research was. His entry on the Zodiac gets absolutely nothing right except the name! |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 376
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 7:09 am: | |
Hi Alan, Leanne
I haven't myself read the book in question, but I think there lies a point in the fact that relying too hard on constructed "rules" of generalizations can be dangerous.
Every author on the field have their set of rules, theoretical constructions and "stages", and I think it is quite difficult to place one before the other and make our work too much dependent on any of them. They may very well be used, but not in an uncritical way.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 721
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 8:10 am: | |
G'day,
ALAN: Yes that's the book! I remember what you said about about it in your last post. You didn't have to remind me. I don't believe that serial murder can be wiped out by detecting the syndrome in children either!
I just spent half an hour 'surfing' the Internet about the mind of serial killers, and read heaps about the 7 or 6 phases that a serial killer goes through, so Norris is not the only person who recognises these phases.
Some recognize 6 Phases, because they count the murder-phase and the post mortem-mutilation phase as one phase, not seperate.
SHANNON: I found a page discussing the depression phase that says: 'About 26% of killers return to the location of the body to relive their fantasy; 19% want to determine the progress of the police; about 8% repeat a killing of another victim; and about 6% return to have sex with the corpse.' How did this author come to the figure of 8%?
I also found a case where a fetish burglar killed his victims only when he was interrupted, because unexpected interruption made him furious.
LEANNE |
Joe
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 4:31 pm: | |
Jack the Ripper was never interrupted by Diemschutz or anyone when he killed Stride.
At the inquest, a Morris Eagle said that he walked his girlfriend home after leaving the club and came back to the club at 12:35. At 12:55 there was news about the death. He was actually at the club when Diemschutz came in to let people know. In the WEEKLY HERALD, they had a story that said a man named Joseph Koster was approached by a little kid at 12:55 on the news of the death. Most of the newspapers acknowledge that that Stride was found at 12:55.
I got this information from Jack the Ripper’s Black Magic Rituals by Ivor Edwards.
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Alan Sharp
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 55
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 9:46 am: | |
Leanne:
Sorry, I'm not saying that those seven (or six) phases don't exist, they most certainly do apply to many if not most serial killers. What I am saying is that there are enough exceptions that they cannot be relied on. Your own burglar killer that you mention is a perfect example. Aileen Wournos would be another. She was a prostitute who killed clients that she felt were too rough and did not pay her the proper respect. No aura phase, no trolling phase, no wooing phase, just sudden anger and a decision to kill.
Joe:
Er, in what way does anything you have said here show that Jack was not interrupted? We know that Morris Eagle was in the yard at 12.35. Liz Stride was not, she was seen in Fairclough Street between five and ten minutes after this, and subsequently by Israel Schwarz. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 404
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 10:52 am: | |
Hi Shannon,
Leanne, Are you aware of the "cooling off phase?" Its when a serial killer either completed a good kill or is interupted in the middle of a kill and has to retreat. In either case, the cooling off period is from several days to several weeks... Would love to see an example of a cooling off period of 30 - 45 minute...
Didn't you see any of my posts about the recent Croydon double event? A young man was attempting to strangle a prostitute, was interrupted when she came to and screamed, alerting some nearby youths and causing the man to run off. His cooling off period was very short - before the night was over he had found himself a victim less able to defend herself and completed his 'good kill'.
Evidently some murderers cope only too well without bothering to refer to recommended cooling off periods in their guide to becoming a model serial killer. 
Love,
Caz
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Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 100
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 11:06 am: | |
CAZ, please site the case with names, dates locations?
Thanks,
Shannon
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Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 408
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 1:06 pm: | |
Hi Shannon,
West Croydon (prostitutes pick up prospective customers along the London Road and take them down side streets - a familiar pattern), the night of 16 August this year.
The man charged with murder and attempted murder is appearing at the Old Bailey in two days' time. The name of the attempted murder victim - a prostitute - has not been released to date. I'd rather not put the names of the suspect and the murder victim up on the boards, but the details have appeared in The Croydon Advertiser.
Love,
Caz
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Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 103
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 9:35 pm: | |
Caz, Will be intersting to see the outcome of the case. The prostitute he tried to strangle should be able to ID him, and his hand prints on her neck area will be easy to identify, as well as DNA from the skin if she was able to scratch him; also, the woman who was murdered was sexually assaulted, indicating there should be a sample for the police to match DNA with.
Just a side note, what if the killer assumed that his second victim was also a prostitute when in reality she wasn't... (shades of Kate Eddowes).
Shannon |
Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 105
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 1:01 am: | |
Leanne, "I also found a case where a fetish burglar killed his victims only when he was interrupted, because unexpected interruption made him furious."
Then he is not a true serial killer as they are in it for the thrill of the kill and not another fetish that only results in a kill when interupted...
Shannon
|
Alan Sharp
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 60
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 5:04 am: | |
Shannon
The FBI defines a serial killer as someone who takes three or more victims for no specified purpose with a significant cooling off period between each. There is no other qualification. The cooling off period is not fixed but is generally regarded as at least a couple of days (the Washington Sniper was regarded as a spree killer rather than a serial killer because the period between kills was not considered long enough).
Sorry, I should amend this post to qualify, I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just pointing out that a person can be a serial killer who is also carrying out another crime, if they take their victim because they want to rather than because they have to. I'm not sure if this case qualifies or not because I would have to see the other facts. |
Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 108
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 6:02 am: | |
Alan, I agree the "Washington Snipers" were a spree team and not true serial killers.
Jack was a serial killer in that he killed at least three women with no specific purpose (except to him), had the cooling off period between the murders, and removing the odd person out of the line up, there appears to be a motive.
(IMO) and only speculation as far as anyone else is concerned, I see the killer as someone on two different mental levels doing the killing.
The first level is outward appearance of the victims. To the killer all his victims have something in common, second (still on the first level) the women are all stalked and murdered in the same way, with his "signature."
(Again, IMO only) Place all the women in a line up and you see one difference in the canonical five victims. Of the first four, Liz is the "odd duckling" in the group. She is not English, she is 3 - 4 inches taller than the others, she was not mutilated abdominally, she was not strangled prior to having her throat cut, and she was not killed instantly as the others were, and if her murder had happened at any other time, or any other place, she would not have been considered a Ripper victim. If you remove her from the line up, you have a more accurate picture of what the killer was looking for.
Polly, Annie, and Kate: All between 5'0 - 5'2, all appeared to be about the same age and physical description, all suffering from the affects of alcohol, all killed on rainy nights, all murdered in a location that would be discovered at first light, and each one escalated a degree in brutality from the previous victim.
Unproven, I believe the killer chose the location, and waited for the victim to arrive, each in a different part of Whitechapel to prove the killer could strike anywhere at anytime. While the victims were all killed in different parts of the city, they all lived within a 2 block radius of each other.
The second psychological level I believe the killer operated on is a subconscious level in which he selected the victims based on a resentment to someone that had wronged him, hurt him, or abandoned him in the past, possibly as a child.
Shannon
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Alan Sharp
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 62
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 6:33 am: | |
Sorry, should have been clearer, when I said I didn't know if this case qualified I meant the burglar! You don't need to convince me that Jack was a serial killer!
I would agree with much of what you have said. I'm still undecided on Liz, and of course I know it supports your own hypothesis but Mary Kelly would stand out in your line up as well because she was so much younger than the others.
Also I personally add Martha Tabram on the list. I think there is evidence that Jack learned from his experiences and in this case I think he learned that he needed to subdue and silence his victims quickly, hence the cutting of the throat in all the other cases. Tabram of course fits the age and physical description criteria. I agree that the killings were a result of his sublimating a subconscious anger against another person.
On the other hand I don't think the killer waited in the location, that doesn't seem logical especially if physical description is an issue. Also I don't see how Hanbury Street could fit in if this was the case.
In my opinion he either went to the location with his victim (which I know you disagree with because of your contention that Eddowes was not a prostitute) or else he shadowed a chosen victim until they were in a location which he felt was secure enough to carry out an attack. |
Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 110
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 6:48 am: | |
Alan, not so much waited in the the spot but had a list of acceptable locations that he walked so as not to attract attention and when the situation was right he struck.
Shannon |
Joe
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 5:53 pm: | |
My reason for noting these times is because Diemschutz stated that he found her at 1:00 A.M. and that's when he supposedly heard something, but Jack the Ripper was about five minutes away due to the other times given, so obviously, Diemschutz got his time wrong.
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Erin
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 10:31 pm: | |
Hi, I'm new here--been lurking for quite a while, soaking up the knowledge, but I just had to respond to Shannon's challenge: Would love to see an example of a cooling off period of 30 - 45 minute...
Just hours after committing two murders AND two brutal attacks (in a very short time period) at the Chi Omega sorority house Ted Bundy attacked another woman less than a mile away. The police were still at the Chi Omega scene when the call came in regarding the other woman. Albert DeSalvo, who may or may not have been the Boston Strangler, raped four women in one day in another series of crimes. German serial killer Peter Kürten murdered two young girl late one evening and then attacked another woman later that afternoon. He is also known to have attacked multiple victims in the same day.
I have to agree with Glenn: When it comes to serial killers, it seems prudent not to rely on theoretical generalizations regarding their behavior when so many exceptions exist. This is not to say that such contributions are without value, just that we need to keep in mind that sometimes people are just plain unpredictable.
Sorry for the lecture, just my two cents' worth. I thoroughly enjoy reading your opinions and have never encountered such a reasonable and well-informed group of message board posters. I can't wait to send in my registration!
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Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 396
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 9:50 am: | |
Hi Erin,
Welcome to the board and good luck with the registration.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 409
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 11:13 am: | |
Hi Shannon,
If you remove her [Stride] from the line up, you have a more accurate picture of what the killer was looking for.
But if Stride, despite everything you say, was in fact murdered by Jack, your picture would not be accurate without her, would it?
Equally, if, despite your insistence that Eddowes 'in reality' never prostituted herself, she did occasionally sell sexual favours to feed her drinking habit (and no one rushed forward with a different explanation for how she came to be so drunk that day), again your picture would not be an accurate one.
The first Croydon victim managed to inflict a bite on her attacker's neck which may have left its mark. The second was sexually assaulted - as was the victim who survived a beating from an iron bar last December, which has been linked to both August attacks. No information has been released to the public about the nature of the sexual assaults so it shouldn't be assumed that there were any samples for DNA comparison.
Obviously it isn't known what assumptions, if any, the killer made about the woman he battered to death. Nor can anything be concluded about her lifestyle or recent means of support from the information so far released.
Love,
Caz
|
Alan Sharp
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 66
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 11:29 am: | |
Joe
Diemschutz never "heard" anything, he found the body after his pony veered away from the right hand wall where she was lying. Nobody found the body before this, therefore if he was out in his timing by five minutes it is totally irrelevant, he was still the first to find the body and therefore he could still very easily have disturbed the killer by turning his pony and cart into the yard. |
Glenn L Andersson
Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 401
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 12:23 pm: | |
I'm with you on that one, Alan.
Anyway, regarding timeschedules; the only ones I think we can with some certainty rely on on this matter, is probably Diemschutz (since he looked at the clock on the baker's shop) and Dr. Blackwell (who had his own watch). But this is nevertheless, like may other details, a difficult thing to value in connection with witness statements.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Shannon Christopher
Detective Sergeant
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 118
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 5:17 am: | |
Caz, so far the only proven link I can see between all the victims (yes Liz included) is that they all had a serious drinking problem. Our killer may not have had it in for prostitutes at all; but drunken women. The theories as to why would fill this thread and many more so will leave it as an unlikely possibility but a possibility non the less...
Shannon |
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