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Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 872
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 3:56 am: |       |
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Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 873
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 4:55 am: | |
G'day,
Of course the Lodging House above, doesn't have the name: 'Buller's' underneath it, but I can't find anything about 'Buller's', only a description of Lodging Houses for the poor.
There's a map pinpionting the location of 'Mrs. Buller's Lodging House' in Bruce Paley's book. It was on the corner of Bishopsgate Street and New Street, Spitalfields, a few streets away from Brushfield Street, and right across from Bishopsgate Police Station.
LEANNE |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 405
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:17 pm: | |
Hi Sarah.
With every murder premeditated or not, there is always a huge risk, of either being caught in the act, or being attributed to the crime, but if the urge is there to commit such a hidious crime, then its a question of act now , and think later, its a bit like an unfaithfull partner, when lust sets in, the urge to go through with the act, would be so overwelming, that it fades common sense,and panic sets in afterwards.
Whoever killed Kelly, would have had to clean himself up after that bloodbath to at least give himself a chance, of leaving the court, without causing attention, if Barnett killed her , sure He would have been taking a huge risk, but he really had no choice, and as luck would have it he managed, to reach his place of abode, dump any clothing by whatever means he could , throughly wash himself , and change into fresh clothing, and return to the court, in order to produce himself, as the shocked and grieving lover.
Richard. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1220
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:37 pm: | |
Richard, Barnett would have had to enter his place of abode without being noticed, wash without being noticed, dump his clothes without being noticed, and also hope that no one had noticed the clean clothes he left there, which during his absence would have been at great risk of being pinched.
Robert |
Sarah Long
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 5:34 am: | |
Leanne,
Hmmm can't find any holes off hand. Maybe the holes are in my head. Must apologise.
I have some questions that I was hoping people may be able to answer for me.
1) Does anyone know where Joe lived before he met Mary?
2) Does anyone know the pub where Joe and Mary drank together on the night/day they met?
3) Was it the night or day they met?
4) What did Joe's job involve?
5) What was the name of the first place they stayed which was on George Street?
I think that's all for now.
Many thanks,
Sarah |
Sarah Long
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 4:53 am: | |
Leanne,
Please could you share your description of lodging houses and how he could have snuck out because every time I read about them it appears to me that they were very crowded and there was always a deputy or doorman type to take money for rooms at all hours. I just don't see how he could have. Also I don't understand what you mean by "He didn't have to sneak out with full intentions to murder her, he may have snuck out because he didn't want people to know how desperate he was."
If he was just going to talk to her then he wouldn't have snuck out at all.
I can't point out all the problems with this theory right now as I started typing this post and can't change the page without this vanishing so i'll look in a sec but to be honest I have noticed on some occasions that for quite a lot of the time people have managed, with little effort, to question this theory. I will have to get back to this point though.
I also read, can't remember if it was this thread or not, that you decided that Joe was the ripper after reading "The Simple Truth". I have never read a book on the subject and then said "ahh yes that's the one". All these authors are entitled to their opinion but they can't press it on to me. I have to have my own one. |
Sarah Long
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 12:25 pm: | |
Richard,
"as luck would have it he managed, to reach his place of abode, dump any clothing by whatever means he could , throughly wash himself , and change into fresh clothing, and return to the court, in order to produce himself, as the shocked and grieving lover."
And no-one saw him?? Even though it was broad daylight and he was probably still covered in blood and hiding a heart somewhere!! I don't buy that!! |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 407
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 4:33 pm: | |
Sarah,
You say 'I dont buy that' Lets forget Barnett for a moment, somebody got away with that crime didnt they?.
Richard. |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 878
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 9:25 pm: | |
50.1 K | BULLERS.pub
"" | |
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Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 879
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 9:52 pm: | |
G'day,
Well that didn't work. I was trying to post the map from Paley's book, showing where Buller's was.
I can't believe that Mary Kelly's murder was premeditated. A desperate man would hope to achieve his ultimate goal right up until the last second. Perhaps he felt the urge to kill someone again, (not necessarily Mary), and that he would probably need an alibi. If Maria Harvey didn't move out when she did, I wouldn't mind betting we'd be studying her murder.
SARAH: If there was a doorman sitting all night at these cheap lodging places, when did he sleep? Where did he go to the tiolet?
Did you know that you have 15 minutes to edit your last post once it has been posted, by clicking on a small icon?
When I first read 'The Simple Truth', I was convinced that the Diary was authentic. I read a few books after that and 'The Simple Truth' happened to be one of them. I didn't want to believe it, then I found 'Casebook' and saw how little the Diary was believed, so I thought the best way to join in was to pick a suspect. The next best book I'd read was Bruce Paley's , because it has a reference for every quote. I also wasn't happy with books that chose a foreign suspect, because I thought that everyone was looking too far away from Whitechapel, and trying to push the case overseas. I believed that the truth was SIMPLE. We just had to look at it simply. I haven't read a post from anyone that convinces me that it couldn't have been Barnett.
The question of whether or not the killer needed the medical expertize of a surgeon or not, comes close to breaking this theory, but there was too much doubt that he needed this quality.
ROBERT, RICH: Why would Barnett have needed to wash and change his clothes if he'd put on one of the mens shirts that Maria Harvey left, before he left?
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 881
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 10:26 pm: | |
G'day,
That's the best I can do. MILLERS COURT was at No.11, and BULLER'S was at No.12.
LEANNE |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 882
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 12, 2003 - 11:39 pm: | |
G'day,
Sorry, I caused this board to be wide, because of the picture I just inserted. When everyone has seen it, could you delete it please Stephen?
LEANNE |
Sarah Long
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 4:54 am: | |
Was wondering why the board had suddenly got so wide and unreadble.
Leanne,
Yes I am aware that I cna edit my post. Your point is?
Also, perhaps you think I am unworthy to join in on these boards or something then Leanne as I haven't picked a suspect. I haven't because I can't. Why did you need to pick someone to join in on here?
Richard,
Many people knew Joe around that area. If you saw someone you know acting strangly, covered in a big coat or something (to hide blood, etc.) wouldn't you talk to him or at least make a mental note that you saw them that morning actually strangely.
So does no-one know the answers to my questions? It would be a real help if someone could let me know if they know any of them.
Regards,
Sarah |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 886
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 3:45 pm: | |
G'day Sarah,
I'M NOT PICKING ON YOU!!! How did you get that idea? I told you that you had 15 minutes to edit your post, because I thought I was being helpful!
You wrote: 'I started typing this post and can't change...' I wasn't sure what you were saying there. I would never pick on another poster. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and I wouldn't dare say that anyone was unworthy!
I asumed the board got so wide because of me, because it changed as soon as I succeeded in posting that map. I haven't mastered that yet! Give it a day or two, so everyone in this discussion knows exactly where Buller's was, and then I'll get on Stephen's back about removing it.
Joe wouldn't have had to wear a big coat to cover anything, if he changed his shirt before he left Kelly's room.
LEANNE |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1228
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 4:31 pm: | |
This board's so wide I reckon you could hide a heart, a knife, a bloody shirt and half a ton of fish on here.
Robert |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 153
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 5:36 pm: | |
Don't forget the boody sink as well.
Rob |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 673
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 6:42 pm: | |
Wow, Leanne, when you set out to do something you really do mean business. Some map! 
----------------------------------------------
Rob C,
Before I forget:
Great photos of New Street, I love that kind of contributions since I am very interested in local history and it is always helpful for those of us who don't know squat about London. Well done, once again.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 674
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 6:46 pm: | |
Interesting schetch with the logding house interior, Leanne. Great stuff.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Robert Clack
Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 156
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 6:52 pm: | |
Cheers Glenn it's Appreciated
All the best
Rob |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1230
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 13, 2003 - 7:06 pm: | |
Yes, Rob and Leanne, thanks for that stuff.
Robert |
Sarah Long
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 7:48 am: | |
Leanne,
I meant do you think you have to pick a suspect to join on the boards, not that I thought you were picking on me.
I also didn't mean that I wanted to change my post, I wanted to change the page and didn't want to lose my post. My post doesn't come up straight away anyway because I'm unregistered at the moment.
If Joe wasn't wearing a cost or anything then, where was Mary's heart being hidden? |
Leanne Perry
Chief Inspector
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 889
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 14, 2003 - 3:02 pm: | |
G'day Sarah,
I just meant that I thought at the time, that a good way to join in was to pick a suspect.
I didn't realize that you were an 'unregistered guest'.
If Joe wasn't wearing a coat when he killed Mary, I bet he wouldn't have escaped the scene naked! I believe the coat was still hanging over the window, so he must have brought his own.
LEANNE |
Sarah Long
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 4:33 am: | |
Sorry, I didn't mean that I thought Joe was naked at the time. Of course he wasn't (I'm sure people would definately has spotted him then!!), but you said that "Joe wouldn't have had to wear a big coat to cover anything". I don't know about him changing shirts, I mean why woul he leave his shirt in the room (albeit in the fire) when he could just have taken it with him. It would explain why there was a man's shirt in the fire but I don't understand why he would leave evidence just lying around in the room. |
Sarah Long
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 9:23 am: | |
Ok, I have a question. If Joe was the killer then what was he doing in October. Why didn't he kill anyone then? Was Mary off the streets during that time or was he/she ill? For those of you who think Joe was JTR then you must have an answer to this? |
Shannon Christopher
Inspector
Username: Shannon
Post Number: 242
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 12:48 pm: | |
Sarah, If you recall on October 3rd, there was a body found in the basement of the New Scotland Yard building. While not a Ripper murder, it was reported as one by the papers. In mid October the "Lusk" letter was delivered to George, and made public.
These two events scared the people of Whitechapel so much that it had the same affect as another murder. Here you have a body in the basement of the new police station, and half a kidney being sent to the man who claimed his committee could protect the citizens of Whitechapel.
Whether it was done by "Jack" or not, he was given credit for it. With that much panic in the streets, there was no need to add another murder to the mix. One reason I do not belive that the killer was a true serial killer. Had it been a true serial killer the murders would have taken place when the killer believed they needed to happen regardless of what else was going on around him...
Shannon |
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