| Author |
Message |
    
norman thomas
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, November 16, 2003 - 3:34 pm: | 
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On the BRITISH TRANSPORT POLICE website there is an article under BTP HISTORY SOCIETY that puts forward a v.plausible theory that JtR may well have been a Railway policeman.
Views/opinions for/against please. |
Andrew Spallek
Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 261
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 11:02 am: |
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Thanks, Norman. The URL is:
http://www.btp.police.uk/History%20Society/Publications/History%20Society/Crime%20on%20line/Was%20Jack%20the%20Ripper%20a%20Railway%20Policeman.htm |
Paul Williams
Sergeant
Username: Wehrwulf
Post Number: 12
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 4:28 pm: |
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I'm not convinced by the argument although the suggestion that the ripper made use of the underground network is interesting and so is the information on Emily Wood, although a later incident. We don't need to speculate on how the ripper walked through the streets undetected, there may not have been a lot of blood on his clothes and, in any case, with slaughtermen and butchers in the area blood would not have attracted undue attention. |
Billy Markland
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 4:11 pm: |
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Interesting. Thanks for the tip Norman & Andrew. Does anyone know where these "blow-holes" would have been?
Regarding the fixed police points. Coincidentally, I was looking at those last night at the Victorian London web site.
The link to them is:
http://www.victorianlondon.org/police/dickens-fixedpoints.htm
Didn't Andy & Sue speculate some time ago that the killer had escaped through tunnels?
Best of wishes,
Billy |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1272
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 2:20 am: |
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Yes, interesting. Thanks to all for the links.
Robert |
Kris Law
Sergeant
Username: Kris
Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 9:45 am: |
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But, was the Whitechapel Tunnel in use at the time of the murders?
I seem to remember reading that it opened in 1889? |
Diana
Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 157
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 3:46 pm: |
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Is there a map that would make this info clearer? |
Kris Law
Sergeant
Username: Kris
Post Number: 18
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 4:42 pm: |
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I have one that i found on the net about a month ago, but I'll be damned if I remember where i found it.
I'm writing a fictional account of the Ripper, and was thinking of him having access to subteranian tunnels before i even heard of this thread. Infact, I only found this thread because I posted about the same thing in the "Help" section.
But the original place i found my info had a rundown on when the certain tunnels opened, and I can check my sources tonight at home, but I'm almost positive that the Whitechapel line didn't open until 1889.
In which case, I'm led to wonder: Did they have guards in the unfinished tunnels?
All night?
How many, and how far apart?
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Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 148
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 3:08 pm: |
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Whatho all,
I've done a bit of research in my books and I can give the following opening dates:
The East London Railway 1876 that is between Rotherhithe and Liverpool Street. The section south from Rotherhithe down to New Cross was opened in 1869.
The Metropolitan District Railway Company reached Whitechapel in 1884. The line was extended through Stepney Green in 1902.
Therefore, I am not sure to which tunnel Kris is referring.
Cheers, Mark (the man in the dark, dank tunnel with a torch with faulty batteries) |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 150
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 07, 2003 - 3:30 pm: |
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Whatho again,
Further to my above posting. All other railways in the area were and are on viaducts.
Cheers, Mark (it's very dark in here) |
Kris Law
Sergeant
Username: Kris
Post Number: 20
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 9:52 am: |
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Hello Mark,
I was going by Birth of the London Underground, but I must have read it wrong. It was this part that confused me:
"Mansion House to Whitechapel Inner Circle complete and junction made with East London Railway at Whitechapel 3 June 1889"
So, the actual line was already open before this?
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Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 245
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 10:14 am: |
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Kris, from what I can find the station at Aldgate East (slightly different location to the current station) began service on 6th October 1884 on the Metropolitan and District Line. Whitechapel Station did not come into service until 1902 and did not join up with the District line until 1906. |
Kris Law
Sergeant
Username: Kris
Post Number: 22
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 1:03 pm: |
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So up until that point Whitechapel station was only for trains? And up until then, the farthest east you co reach underground was Aldgate station?
Am I correct in this? |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Inspector
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 151
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 6:27 pm: |
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Whatho all,
Let's get this right.
The Metropolitan District Railway Company extended its line from Mansion House to Whitechapel (then called Whitechapel (Mile End)) on 6th October 1884. Whitechapel was renamed to its present name on 13th November 1901. Therefore it did not come into service in 1902 and did not join up with the District Line until 1906. All this happened in 1884!
On the same day (6th October 1884) the link line between what is now the District Line and the Circle Line was opened. Thus giving the Metropolitan Railway Company access to Whitechapel.
However that is not the first Whitechapel station as the East London Line station predates it. The East London Railway Company built its railway through the already existing Thames Tunnel from New Cross to Wapping (then Wapping & Shadwell) opening the line on 7th December 1869.
This was extended to Liverpool Street via Whitechapel Station on 10th April 1876. Therefore, there was an underground station at Whitechapel from 1876.
The East London Railway became the property of the Metropolitan Railway on 1st October 1884 and therefore became part of the underground.
Incidentally, there was a station between Whitechapel and Aldgate East known as St Mary's and this closed 30th April 1938.
I hope this clears up all the points. The information has been collected from:
The East London Line and the Thames Tunnel by Charles E Lee (London Transport 1976)
What's in a Name? (the origins of station names of the London Underground) by Cyril M Harris (Midas Books Ltd 1977)
The London Underground, a Diagrammatic History by Douglas Rose (second edition, self published 1983)
Cheers, Mark (who is hoping that light in the tunnel is not a train) |
Kris Law
Sergeant
Username: Kris
Post Number: 25
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 9:28 am: |
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Mark,
Thank you for clearing that all up for me. |
Alan Sharp
Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 248
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 10:00 am: |
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Kris
The following link:
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/clive.billson/tubemaps/1889.html
takes you to an 1889 London underground map which may help.
Mark
From this map, I assume then that the red line running along the line of Whitechapel High Street is the link line in question? |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Inspector
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 153
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 09, 2003 - 12:53 pm: |
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Whatho Alan,
The link line to which I referred is seen to the west of Aldgate East turning towards and joining the blue line just north of Aldgate but I understand what you mean.
The red line running along the route of
Whitechapel High Street is the Metropolitan District Railway's line now know as the District Line. It is this line which was extended to sunny Upminster through Stepney Green and Mile End on 2nd June 1902.
The red line going south-north west through Whitechapel to Shoreditch and Bishops Gate Goods Yard is the East London Railway. It is on this line on which Montague Druitt could have travelled up from Blackheath (changing at New Cross) to kill the ladies. But, of course, he did not!
Cheers, Mark (who, if you are not careful, will give you the full history of Kings Cross St Pancras Station next week)
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norman thomas
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 02, 2004 - 3:19 pm: |
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ladies/gentlemen,
I am glad that my original posting has prompted discussion amongst you,but,in essence is the theory put forward on the BTP HISTORY SOCIETY page feasible,or not.(i.e.that JtR could have been a railway policeman & used his considerable knowledge of the underground system of the day as a ready-made escape route).Clearly,you have a much greater grasp on the JtR mystery than I,but this "railway policeman" theory does appear to me,a rank amateur,to have some merit for consideration.
Your experienced views on feasability/probability/possibility would would therefore,be most interesting (& appreciated).
Thank you.
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Kris Law
Inspector
Username: Kris
Post Number: 152
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 9:30 am: |
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Hello,
Would a regular person be able to get down into the tunnels at night to move around? And, if they could get into the tunnels, would there then be watchmen to keep on guard for?
Kris |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Inspector
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 202
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 13, 2004 - 10:15 am: |
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Whatho Kris,
The answer should be no but it is always possible to enter the railway lands. Apart from the stations where one could stroll off the end of the platform into the tunnel (if one is daft) there are many other places where access to the railways can be obtained.
Underground railways still require depots and sheds where the rolling stock is kept (although I think there were none in the East End). There would have been access ways to signal boxes and there would be nothing to stop someone climbing over a handy wall or fence.
We must remember the District Line at Whitechapel is only a sub-surface railway; that is it was dug as a very large ditch and had a roof (normally a road) put on it.
As for the two other railways in the area, the Great Eastern from Liverpool Street and London, Tilbury and Southend from Fenchurch Street; they are surface railways partly on viaducts and there would be (and still are) steps in certain places to allow access.
There were far too many access points for watchmen to watch and for someone who knew those access points (like a railway policemen) there would be little trouble for those who might want to escape via the railway tracks.
And if the policeman (if it was he) was in uniform, which watchman would challenge him?
Cheers, Mark |
Busy Beaver
Police Constable
Username: Busy
Post Number: 9
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 3:31 pm: |
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The BPT History site was an excellent read. How often had it been said that Jack just "vanished into thin air". The railways ducts would be an excellent escape route, particularly if the killer knew the area well. I wonder how many railway policemen lived in the killing zone in 1888? Might be worth researching.
Busy Beaver |
David O'Flaherty
Inspector
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 304
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 3:58 pm: |
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BB,
I haven't gotten around to reading it fully, but you might be interested in Bernard Brown's "North by Northwest" in the last issue of Ripperologist--if you're not already familiar with it, that is.
Best,
Dave |
Busy Beaver
Sergeant
Username: Busy
Post Number: 11
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 22, 2004 - 4:21 pm: |
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Thanks Dave,
I'll grab a copy and have a read.
Busy Beaver |
Kevin Gordon
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 5:12 pm: |
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Friends,
I am very pleased that the account has caused some discussion. Although there would have been a considerable number of Railway Policemen in east London at the time of the murders, like other officers they would have been on fairly tight "fixed points" not only answering to their supervisors but also to the local station masters. A Police officer, railway or otherwise to have left his beat would have been a serious disciplinary matter and it is likely that they would be caught absent. Of course he may have been wearing his uniform off duty.....?
Kevin GORDON
Force Historian
British Transport Police
Thanks for the kind comments about the web-site. |
