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AP Wolf
Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 472
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 12:51 pm: |       |
Quite right, Glenn, I agree with every word written.
But I still think it would be a good idea to feed young and budding profilers this volume during their formative years so that when they grow up and are presented with a case they are hence able to gurgitate rather than regurgitate.
The volume must have some use.
It floats well I suppose. |
Erin Sigler
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 51
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 1:57 pm: | |
Glenn, don't bother with Hite or any of her non-academic, sensationalistic nonsense. Anyone who uses their fan base as a source of supposedly unbiased information (and this is how she rectifies her methodological errors? Can we say "selection effect?") is plainly not the type of researcher anyone who actually knows "academic excellence" would take seriously longer than the five seconds it takes to realize her "work" is a bunch of self-serving, decidedly non-academic b.s. She's not a social scientist, but a journalist, and she has absolutely no credentials. Legitimate sociologists pretty much think she's a joke. As I've mentioned before, we used her work in one of my sociology classes (taught by an actual sociologist educated in the field, unlike Ms. Hite) as an example of how not to conduct serious, scientific, academic research.
Personally, I'll stick to people like Ressler, who not only spent 20 years in the FBI but has also taught at the University of Virginia, Michigan State University, Georgetown University, and Dundee University in Scotland (among others), and has been honored by the American Academy of Psychiatry and Law, and the Academy of Forensic Science (among others) AND who holds memberships in the American Academy of Criminal Justice Sciences, the American Academy of Forensic Sciences, and the International Association of Forensic Sciences (among others); John Douglas, who also spent about 20 years in the FBI, and with Ressler and Ann Burgess co-authored the standard textbook on sexual homicide used by law enforcement personnel all over the world; Dr. Robert Keppel, who not only spent well over 20 years in law enforcement, but also holds a Ph.D. in criminal justice and two master's degrees, and authored the premier work on signature murder, Signature Killers; and Dr. Park Dietz, a forensic psychiatrist with degrees from Cornell and Johns Hopkins Universities, author of dozens of articles in professional journals, and with more honors, accolades, and professional memberships than I can even begin to detail.
But hey, they're not Sherri Hite, with her decidedly non-academic credentials. . .as a journalist. |
AP Wolf
Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 475
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 5:11 pm: | |
Very good Erin
And so would Richard Nixon with a powerhouse of totally corrupt academic warlords behind him - with the accumulated wisdom and vast knowledge of hundreds of years of learning in the very honoured and privileged institutes you mention - have led America to industrial, civil and commercial chaos, when not all-out nuclear oblivion if he had been left unchecked by the feisty and obnoxious efforts of a single journalist.
I’m assuming you must have been born long after ‘Watergate’?
American journalists - and this is I must say an exception, for I was myself a journalist for many long years - are quite a breed apart, and I believe you do them great discredit, and yourself by classifying them as ignorant of the real events that move society along.
They certainly have their finger on a better pulse than most of the gentleman you mention, and your banal efforts to impress with their over-blown Freudian profiling claptrap and awesome academic qualification is much like making Shakespeare academically responsible for all the ignorant tourists who flock to Verona to view Romeo and Juliet’s balcony.
No doubt you took that in during your grand tour as well?
I know this might be difficult to comprehend, but you see Romeo and Juliet did not exist, not in the real world anyway.
Just like your academic profilers.
|
Erin Sigler
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 53
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 7:13 pm: | |
You can't have it both ways, A.P. Either you appreciate "academic excellence" or you don't. Or do you only value those academics who share your world view? In any case, Hite has no academic credentials of which I'm aware, and most academics in the field consider her "work" pseudo-social science at its most commerical and disasterous. Furthermore, as someone once poised on the brink of a career in journalism (glad I didn't end up in that snakepit) who has in fact studied its methods, I don't think American journalism is something in which we can take great pride, particularly in these days of corporate ownership of the media. Perhaps back in the 1970s, when I was born, journalists were appropriate independent and well-informed, but no matter how you try to dress her up Shere Hite is no Bob Woodward. She's closer to Jayson Blair, who as you may or may not know represents the real future of journalism in the U.S. today. Legitimate journalists should have a fair knowledge of how statistics work, something which Hite clearly does not.
And since you seem to think disparaging MY academic credentials is a legitimate way to conduct a serious argument with someone (ad hominim argumentation, anyone? straw men? red herrings?) precisely qualifications, other than a strong opinion, do you bring to the table? Clearly you haven't studied social science or you would know how long ago Ms. Hite had been discredited and why. Either that or you're so convinced of your own rightness that no one, no matter how credentialed, is going to change your mind. I prefer to be a little more intellectually flexible. That's what I learned during my "grand tour," as you so condescendingly refer to my education. |
Donald Souden
Police Constable
Username: Supe
Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 7:54 pm: | |
Maybe you folks could take this discussion some place else -- preferably far away. The whole business of trying to fit 19th century crimes into 20th century (far less 21st!) constructs is dificult to begin with, but now the arguments have gotten vicious, silly and quite tedious. |
Erin Sigler
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 55
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 8:32 pm: | |
Quite right, Donald. I apologize. However, I think many of us do try to put the crimes in historical perspective whenever possible.
P.S. I've moved up a rank! I'm like DS Havers now! Or is she just a Sergeant? |
Donald Souden
Police Constable
Username: Supe
Post Number: 8
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 8:57 pm: | |
Erin,
Congratulations! Of course in most orginazations those getting a promotion are obliged to buy a round for all the underlings they leave behind in their climb to the top. |
Erin Sigler
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rapunzel676
Post Number: 56
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 9:16 pm: | |
Well, Donald, I didn't get a raise, but here's a couple of  for everyone anyway!  |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 608
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 29, 2003 - 10:23 pm: | |
Erin and A.P (especially).
Donald is quite right; we don't want another occurence similar to what happened on another thread; no names or subjects mentioned... If we don't try to keep things civilized here, we will loose too may valuable contributors on the boards, and that would be a shame.
Erin!
Congratulations to your promotion. As you've noticed there is no raise to follow it, but you're entitled to one extra ration fish & ships a week on the Ten Bells. Yes thank you, I wouldn't mind a pint or two...
P.S. How are your cats doing?
--------------------------------------
Donald!
"The whole business of trying to fit 19th century crimes into 20th century (far less 21st!) constructs is dificult to begin with..."
No offense, Donald, but I've always found this argument a bit tedious and unjustified. The "constructs" may have been theoretically drawn up during the last 50 years, but that doesen't make them unvalid in connection with crimes performed over hundred years ago, as long as they are modified to suit the actual circumstances. As Erin said, most of us do try to put the crimes in the historical context - I am myself a historian originally so I am well aware of that necessity, but even though moral values and environmental circumstances vary through time, the psychological aspects regarding the criminal mind remain quite intact and explorable. I'm sorry if the subject seems problematic, but then on the other hand the discussion here is quite appropriate in relation to the nature of this thread. But I agree that the arguments don't have to get personal or vicious nevertheless.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
AP Wolf
Inspector
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 476
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 2:47 am: | |
Okay then
I'll go back to the bar.
I only came out for a bite of fresh air anyway. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 360
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 3:19 am: | |
Hi Guys,
As the Ten Bells was just mentioned Question.
What on earth has happened to that pub? I visited the area a couple of weeks back,and I could not believe my eyes,at first I thought the place was closed down for alterations, and the fact that the pub door was open, was because work men were inside, having crossed the road for a closer look, I realized the pub was actually open for business, I looked inside briefly, and the place was a tip. it certainly looks authentic now, I would imagine it resembled conditions of 1888.
I visited the pub many times 25-30years ago, and it was a classy joint, can somebody please enlighten me on what is going on.
Richard. |
Alan Sharp
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 141
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 6:52 am: | |
AP
Thanks for the book offer by the way. I would love to read it but wouldn't put you to the trouble of searching the attic. Takes too long to get the ladder out and you'll only end up balancing on the back of a chair and then fall and break your arm or something. 
I may well try to search it out among the antiquated book dealers and add it to my collection. You never know, it might knock old Patsy Cornball off the "worst Ripper book yet written" top spot. |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 611
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 10:23 am: | |
Hi Richard,
Since I plan to do my debut vist to London in February, and of course is curious about the pub in question, I have always wondered the same thing, so I'm glad you brought it up. Some here on the boards has given some hints of the new developments regarding the Ten Bells; the last I heard it was turned into a wine-bar, where the corner that earlier had a board with the names of the victims, now is replaced by a DJ-booth. I read on the Internet, that the new owners had plans to restore the pub in an authentic 19th century style, as it may have looked in Victorian times. All the Ripper items seem to have been scrapped, though.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Holger Haase
Police Constable
Username: Holger
Post Number: 9
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 10:56 am: | |
Debut visit? Wow, you got a lot to look forward to. I may also be around that time, so once you know exact details of your trip shoot me a little private message if you like. Nothing is planned yet 100%, but I haven't been in London since last October and generally always like to go there once a year. So a visit is more than overdue.
Now I know that this is absolutely unexcusable, but despite numerous visits to London I have never once made a proper Ripper walks or visited the Ten Bells. 
Holger |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 613
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 12:21 pm: | |
Hello Holger
Yes, I must admit I am a bit ashamed of the fact that I've never been to Britain at all, especially as a flight to London don't take much more than an hour from where I live. But it is my financial situation as well as the fact that I hate flying that are the primary reasons.
I would very much like to see Ireland and Scotland as well, and of course the rest of England, like Dartmoor, and the north-east coast etc. But that I will have to keep in store for future travels. London is my prime goal for now, especially as I have made a few interesting contacts there - and of course to visit Whitechapel and Spitalfields.
I might very well send you a message when the time comes - I think it will be in late February; I have two or three others I plan to meet as well.
Yes, I believe there is a lot of things to look forward to; I'll try to squeeze in a Ripper walk as well.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Inspector
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 363
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 3:06 pm: | |
Hi Glenn,
A ripper walk is essential, if for the sole reason, you can locate mitre square, I was throughly disgusted with myself two weeks ago when visiting the area for the first time in many years, for although I know Whitechapel well, I could not locate Mitre Square, the area has become a mass of multi windowed office blocks, that become a maze of bewilderment, even tho I asked a dozen people or more, they could not tell me the location, in the end my wife and I had a enjoyable lunch in the City Darts[ formely The Princess alice] commercial road.
SO i throughly recommend The walk.
Lets hope the Ten bells is reformed to its original appearence by the time you reach Whitechapel late Feb.
Regards Richard. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1138
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 7:36 pm: | |
Hi Glenn
Don't worry about flying. As Spike Milligan used to say, "Flying isn't dangerous. It's crashing that's dangerous."
Robert |
Donald Souden
Sergeant
Username: Supe
Post Number: 11
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 8:38 pm: | |
Glenn,
No offense taken, but I still don't agree -- and remember, I said "questionable" not "invalid." Rather than quibble, however, consider the state of modern medical science. Certainly, most would agree that as it pertains to the identification and treatment of physical ills modern medicine is quite advanced and stands on much firmer scientific footing than the psychological/psychiatric branch.
Yet, even with fairly detailed lists of symptoms modern medicine is often unable to make definitive diagnoses of what ailed historical figures, far less come up with actual names for such ancient complaints as "guts griping," "loads of gravel in the back," "brain blather," "limekilns in the palms," and "the rivelled fee-simple of the tetter." And that is because, even if you discard all the modern diagnostic tools, to properly identify what is bothering a patient a physcian would need to observe that patient, talk with him if possible, know a lot more about his history and so.
Nothing approaching that is possible with any of the Jack suspects; with most we don't even have a transcript of testimony, far less an interview. Even our reports of the crimes are sketchy, contradictory and often the equivalent of a third-generation Xerox copy of a photograph taken through a dirty window of an image in a funhouse mirror.
Moreover, modern constructs can also be illusory. Like you, I was once a historian and an example from what was my area of study -- 17th Century New England -- is illustrative. Many have pondered the Salem Witch Trials and yet for me the most fascinating aspect of the events is how in the previous century, almost at intervals of a decade, one after another "cause" for the events has been trotted out. And, as should surprise no one, each of those hypotheses mirrored a modern concern at the time it was written. There have been psychological and psychiatric explanations; arguments that it was a manifestation of proto-McCarthyism; that it was the result of generational conflicts, naturally occurring hallucinogens in the food supply or a way of keeping women down. There has been an economic determinist explanation and in the past year or so a new book that blames it on post-traumatic stress after terrorist attacks. Honest. If I were still in the field I might steal a march on my colleagues and start writing a book that laid the blame on global warming.
In fact, we shall never really understand what happened because we can not get into the minds of the participants with their Puritan worldview that was at once very narrow and yet also very expansive and inquiring.
Finally, whenever folks get deeply immersed in the WHY of the Ripper crimes I am reminded of some words by Tolstoy in Anna Karenina:"All happy families resemble one another, each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way." I suspect that may apply to serial, spree, mass -- take your pick -- killers.
|
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 614
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 10:08 pm: | |
Hi Donald,
I absolutely see your point, and I don't dispute that there are problems with this approach of course. But I think you base your opinion on your own historical preferences, I think the life and conditions of the 17th century - as well as our ability to understand that historical period - is quite different to the situation we have here. My historical field has always been the late 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century, and even though moral values and social orders were different from what they are today, I think the people who lived then were in many ways very much like ourselves. In contrast to people of the 17th or 18th century (or even further back in history), they are quite easy to identify with, in my mind, and many of their problems as well. There are no difficult "language" barriers to consider and I believe it would have been quite easy to indulge ourselves in a conversation with them - and find some mutual understanding. I don't necessarily think that would be the case if we met someone from the 17th century.
I think it is quite a big difference between the 17th and the 19th century - the latter is in many ways the starting point of our modern society, and apart from poorer technical and medical circumstanses in many areas (by today's standard), apolice investigation was quite fairly much the same as it is today, if we look at the basic information and documentation, such as police and authopsy reports, interrogation transcripts etc. That we can hardly say about the 17th century.
"Nothing approaching that is possible with any of the Jack suspects; with most we don't even have a transcript of testimony, far less an interview. Even our reports of the crimes are sketchy, contradictory and often the equivalent of a third-generation Xerox copy of a photograph taken through a dirty window of an image in a funhouse mirror."
I completely agree on that point. But that also confirms that the usual study of reports, witness testimonies and so on, isn't enough. And the reason for this being that the material is incomplete and sometimes contradictive. But I do think the evidence from the crime scenes and the victimology in this case actually gives us enough information to make a profile on the perpetrator of the crimes. In some cases profilers don't have much more to go on in modern cases than what's available here. And as I said earlier, even if social, political and moral circumstances transforms themselves through time, the mind of a psychotic killer works the same today as it did in the 19th century.
If one just is aware of the historical context, and take this in consideration, it is my strongest belief that the profiling effort is one of the more preferable methods in order to narrow down the number of suspects and to understand why and how the murders were committed. I assume that your quote from Anna Karenina is meant to illustrate that even among a category there are dissimilarities and individual aspects to consider - well, noone is disputing that; but there are main characteristics from certain kinds of offenders and patterns that are recognazible nevertheless, and that is what profilers set out to indentify. But of course, if one is against the method altogether, I believe that point will never be accepted and taken in consideration.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 616
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 10:40 pm: | |
Hi Robert,
I am not really afraid of flying in that sense - the reasons are physical, not psychological. I have a hard time coping with the G-forces and the pressure. Unfortunately the tunnels between my ears and sinus are totally blocked or closed, so I take medication for that. But it is quite painful nevertheless; I've only flown once and it was the worst experience in my life - a complete torture. So that part I certainly don't look forward to.
Richard!
Well, I've seen on photos what Mitre Square looks like today and I am quite a good map-reader, so I usually don't have that much trouble with orientation when I come to a new place. But then my many years of experience as a local historian here at home, has helped me quite a bit regarding how to identify certian places, although the topography and buildings on a particular site has completely changed. And I also find it stimulating to set out on my own expeditions. Nevertheless, a personal friend of mine - who very much is familiar with the area - has also promised to give me private, guided tour, so I believe I'm in good hands anyway.
But I'll fit in a Ripper walk nevertheless, just for the fun of it; I've heard that those lead by Rumbelow and Richard Jones are supposed to be the more enjoyable ones.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Donald Souden
Sergeant
Username: Supe
Post Number: 12
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 10:47 pm: | |
Glenn,
We seem to be arguing the wrong things here. I have no problem with profiling as an adjunct to a criminal investigation. I think it has great possibilities, even for historic crimes. What I was arguing against were postings that were getting both too personal and too wrought up in terminology.
And that can be a problem even today. Surely you are aware of the difficulties profiling posed during the investigation of the "DC Snipers" here in the States last year. Initially, the perps were labelled "serial killers" and because that crime is overwhelmingly committed by lone White males the killing team -- a pair of Black males -- were actually stopped several times by the police during roadblocks, but were paid no attention. It seems there is another category, that of "snipers," in which Blacks are somewhat more frequently represented than their numbers in the population as a whole.
Finally, while I agree that it would be easier to talk with someone from the late 19th century than one from the 17th, have some fun sometime and ponder how much different our worldview is from that of just 100 years ago. I suspect you would find a lot more than you might think initially. Conversation would not be impossible by any means, but I'll bet there would be more stares of incomprehension on both sides of the discussion than we might first imagine.
Anyway, I will leave it all here, lest someone suggest I am seeking an easy (and unwarranted) promotion by indulging in endless "brain blather" (I love that old disease name) postings.
Don.
|
Laurenwy
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 27, 2003 - 8:15 pm: | |
Having read through the ripper project and the Douglas books I have to admmit I don't think that his profile works as well as it might. If the Ripper was a disorganised lust murderer as is suggested in Mindhunter and the Ripper project, how did he manage to take all the toools he would need with him, avoid detection, and manage to take trophies? i though those were the hallmarks of organised killers. also one theory doing the rounds in Sunny Scotland is that he ripped them for satisfaction but also to get any personal wealth secreted in their bodies (where prostitutes would have hidden it).
Also does anyone know the average height in 1888, because so far I've found it to be either 5'7 or 5'4 and can't work out which it is? |
Saddam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, October 26, 2003 - 8:53 pm: | |
Personally, I'm not much of a fan of Shere Hite after having seriously read her. I've got extensive heterosexual experience, and what she believes about male sexual response doesn't tally. I am not out to conquer or desecrate a woman with my penis. I've frankly never wanted to do that, although I believe a number of immature boys may pass through such a temporary phase. Hite fallaciously extends this phase outward, to all men and throughout all their lives.
Saddam
|
Harry Mann
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 27, 2003 - 4:19 am: | |
I might have been inclined to accept something of what Eckert wrote if I could believe that he was being factual.Wasn't the Little Big Horn reenactment seen mainly through the eyes of the surviving indians?.
And later,"Three and a half hours later in pitch darkness,among the lightless streets,alleys and squares".He is talking of Whitechapel in 1998 for goodness sake.Perhaps he had A slight phycological disorder himself,an experience of 'A state of altered conciousness'in which he believed himself to be back in 1888.
The murders did not cover an area of one square mile.It was much nearer to one half square mile,very important when considering the time needed for the killer to get back into cover.
Most of what is in the article is hearsay,and very little phsycological evidence is presented in the sense that it would isolate an individual to the exclusion of all others. |
Saddam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, October 30, 2003 - 5:12 pm: | |
"...The whole business of trying to fit 19th century crimes into 20th century (far less 21st!) constructs is dificult to begin with..."
Yes. The solution: Shift the paradigmatic. When will we learn that we must CHOOSE our paradigm if we mean to solve this case? But that means that--awwwkk!--we must learn to think for ourselves!
Saddam
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