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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 661
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 4:53 pm: | 
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Various plans, views etc of Morris Plains Asylum, NJ where Fogelma allegedly died in 1902
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T.E.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 05, 2003 - 2:58 pm: |
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I did some research on the name Fogelma since i,as a Norwegian,never ever have heard of such a name.The name does not sound Norwegian at all,it seems like a hoaxed name that could sound Norwegian too English ears.
I searched in the big census in Norway at 1865,1875 and 1900,and specialy in the Arendal-district.The conclusion was clear;no one had that name in our country in those years.I also searched for the name in the population today;non-existent.
T.E.  |
Helge Samuelsen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, December 20, 2003 - 11:09 pm: |
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I agree that Fogelma does not sound norwegian, and I have not been able to locate anyone with the name, past or present in Norway. However, I have noticed that the name does exist, possibly with jewish origins. What first gave me that impression was when I noticed a Yaacov Fogelma signing for Israel on a WHO document (http://www.uib.no/isf/letter/) However, I wonder if this is a misspelling? There also exist a Dr. Ya`akov Fogelman (http://www.geocities.com/jerusalemlives/within_the_walls/bio.html). Is it possible that in fact this is the same name spelled differently? (just as Ya`akov obviously also equals Yaacov)
The persons mentioned here obviously have no connection to the Ripper case, but the very existence of the name today could obviously shed some light on its origins.
Fogelman is at any rate a more common name than Fogelma. (which unfortunately does nothing to help us pinpointing a possible ripper!)
Keeping in mind anti-semitism (unfortunately not entirely nonexistant in Norway (nor England) at the time in question), could "our" Fogelma actually have used a different name in the Norwegian census?
Again, considering anti-semitism, could the very story actually have its origin in some sort of effort to "blame it on the juwes"?
All this is barely a working hypothesis, obviously, as facts seem hard to come by!
Helge Samuelsen |
NC
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, December 22, 2003 - 8:29 pm: |
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Helge,
Excellent piece of research. It is entirely plausible that the final letter of a name could be deleted either as a typo or more deliberate action. Hopefully some futher digging on the name Fogelman may turn up something.
Regards
Neale |
T.E.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 13, 2004 - 3:20 pm: |
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Fogelma could offcourse be the same as Vogelman or something,a rather normal German name i guess.
I see that this question have been asked before at this page: http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/GEN-NORDIC/1998-07 |
jeroen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 1:12 pm: |
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vogelma is also a dutch name |
jeroen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, August 05, 2004 - 1:14 pm: |
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vogelma is also a dutch name
(vogel is bird in dutch) |
MrVess
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, August 22, 2004 - 4:14 pm: |
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Even Google finds quite a lot of people named "Fogelma", so the name is obviously real. Some first names of these people sound Scandinavian, too (others don't, though ;)).
Additionally, keep in mind that an Englishman writing down this name could very likely have misspelled it, and "Fogelma" may not actually be the suspect's name at all. Perhaps it's in fact only an approximate phonetic representation of the actual name's spelling... and if that's the case then it's indeed very likely that the first character would be "V", as a lot of those for whom English is the first language have no idea that it's most often pronounced as "f" in many languages (just listen to how many Americans pronounce the Austrian/German "von" as "v:on")... |
Helge Samuelsen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 30, 2004 - 1:55 pm: |
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So..it is verified that Fogelma exist, but so does Fogelman, Voegelman etc. No questions about that. And although none of these variations are generically Norwegian, all the variations seems to be of the germanic language group (branch of Indo European)in origin.
We are not getting any further on this point.
What IS interesting is if someone has taken these possibilities into account when searching the Morris Plains records! |
Morticia
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, October 03, 2004 - 3:01 am: |
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I don't know whether my post came through, due to some computer error, but just to be on the safe side, here goes:
Pure speculation on my account here, but I think the name could be Scandinavian, at least Swedish, or from the Swedish-speaking parts of Finland. The spelling would then be Fågelmo (fågel:bird, mo: a piece of sandy heathland). It sounds like it could be an assumed name, since Sweden has had quite strict laws regarding names, and who's allowed to assume what name and so on. Fågelmo would be a creative alternative to the multitudes of surnames ending with "-son". Changing surnames got quite popular here during the 19th century, for example, changing your name to sound more Latin was a big hit among the learned classes, but even though Fågelmo is a stretch, I wouldn't say it's all out of the question. |
Helge Samuelsen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 5:13 pm: |
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Morticia, you got me thinking again.
Yeah..possible with Fågelmo. But its scarcer than Fogelma (nonexistant in Norway AFAIK, but still a real surname elsewhere), in that I have still to find a single instance of Fågelmo anywhere. (Still, anything is possible?)
HOWEVER, to my embarrasment the norwegian variation of this DO actually exist in the form of Fuglemo(its a proper surname found among other places in Trøndelag, Norway)This could, if the story about the norwegian sailor is true, perhaps account for the mis-spelling of Fogelma, as considered before, and still make the sailor a norski, a major problem with Fogelman(n)\Vogelman(n).
Of course, I still think linguistically it would be easier (more probable) to corrupt Voegelman to Fogelma rather than Fuglemo, which sounds phonetically quite different (at least to me), and is probably why this variation never occurred to me in the first place.
But who am I to know what english speaking people might do with a "unpronounceable" name like that 
Anyway, how does an "o" become an "a" for starters. "Mo" is usually pronounced "moe" by brits..not "ma". Still, perhaps its a printing error, not a phonetic one, and that puts me back to square one on that reasoning.
Ok. I`m not getting any further here. Anyone want to look for Fuglemo, then ? |
Dr. Orloff
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 10:36 am: |
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i did a little bit of research and i think the name VOGELMANN is definite of eastern germany and/or european origin. Greater Poland (Grossherzogtum Posen, Ksi¸estwo Pozna´ nskie) and
Eastern Pomerania (Pommern, Po- morze)
1. Christian Friedrich Koehler, born Abt. 1819. He married (1) Albertina Bertha Vogelmann November 22, 1847 in Karkow, Kr. Saatzig, Pommern, Germany. She was the daughter of Christian Vogelmann.
Children of Christian Koehler and Albertina Vogelmann are:
i. Wilhelmine Caroline Auguste Koehler, born 1848 in Karkow, Kr. Saatzig, Pommern, Germany; married William August Buss Abt. 1876. Immigrated ca 1901 and settled around Rheinlander, WI
ii. Luise Mathilde Emilie Koehler, born May 12, 1851 in Karkow, Kr. Saatzig, Pommern, Germany; died March 21, 1932 in Johnsonville Twp., Redwood County, MN; married Julius Maass November 13, 1873 in Pommern, Germany. Immigrated in 1895 and settled near Walnut Grove, MN
iii. Carl Friedrich August Koehler, born May 29, 1853 in Alt Damerow, Kr. Saatzig, Pommern, Germany.
iv. Friedrich Wilhelm Koehler, born July 17, 1855 in Buchholz, Kr. Saatzig, Pommern, Germany; died July 24, 1855 in Buchholz, Kr. Saatzig, Pommern, Germany.
v. Carl Friedrich August Koehler, born September 12, 1859 in Kitzerow, Kr. Saatzig, Pommern, Germany.
vi. Christian Friedrich Franz Koehler, born November 23, 1861 in Kitzerow, Kr. Saatzig, Pommern, Germany.
vii. Auguste Albertine Bertha Koehler, born November 17, 1863 in Kitzerow, Kr. Saatzig, Pommern, Germany; died December 26, 1918 in North Star Twp., Brown Co., MN; married Carl August Wetzel. Immigrated and settled around Springfield, MN
viii. Auguste Albertine Mathilde Koehler, born January 09, 1866 in Kitzerow, Kr. Saatzig, Pommern, Germany; died 1938; married August F. Johlitz. Settled around Rhinelander or Arbor Vitae, WI
ix. Mathilde Louise Koehler, born March 11, 1869 in Steinhofel, Kr. Saatzig, Pommern, Germany; died November 17, 1952 in Kenosha, WI; married Fritz Block. Immigrated in 1893 and settled in Kenosha, WI.
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Dr. Orloff
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, January 16, 2005 - 9:50 am: |
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hi,
i think his name was "vogelmann".
a german named George "Vogelmann" arrived in America on 5 September 1751 at Pennsyvania. after his arrival he changed his name into "Fogleman".
one of his relatives named Aaron Spencer Fogleman wrote a book on german immigration to colonial america.
http://www.upenn.edu/pennpress/book/615.html
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Helge Samuelsen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 2:27 pm: |
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Oh, and just one more point (and not such a minor either) that slipped my mind on the previous posting. Concerning Helen Fogelma and Olga Storsjan.. If these are norwegian in origin, and they should be, if the original story is correct..then I have no problems understanding why they have never been found. Helen might very well actually have been the more commonly used norwegian Helene, and the Fogelma (possible) error would have confused her name further. Maybe we should be looking for Helene Vogelman\Fogleman(etc). Olga is definitely a name used extensively in the time period in question in Norway, and Storsjan is obviously the very real norwegian name of Storsjøen(literally: great lake) phonetically misspelled exactly as I would expect an english speaking person would!
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Helge Samuelsen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 26, 2005 - 2:09 pm: |
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Good work, my dear dr. ;) Vogelman\Fogelman\Vogelma\Fogleman(all different forms of the same name)certainly seems more probable than Fogelma! Now is anyone up to looking into the Morris Plains asylum records? Do they even exist today?
My main point all along is that even if no one ever found the name Fogelma when looking in the archives previously, these other possibilities may never have been searched for, and obviously never found!
IF, and only IF, we find that such a person ever died there in 1902, can we begin to unravel the possible thruth of the original Fogelma story. Obviously it would greatly increase the possibility that the story is true (after all, its "just" a newspaper story)It might even yield further clues about this person.
Unlikely as it seems after all this time, if this "ghost" person is real, AND can be connected to Whitechapel, London during the 1888 autumn of terror..well..this longshot might yield us Saucy Jack! Throw in a connection to Carrie Brown.. (not unlikely if Jack ended up in the US and eventually Morris Plains)and statistics are in our favor..
Yeah, I know it is still a VERY long shot..
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ex PFC Wintergreen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, February 13, 2005 - 10:18 pm: |
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This is all academic as the only reason Fogelma was ever considered as the Ripper was that he was in an asylum and was interested in Jack the Ripper.
If I was alive at the time and in a mental institution you'd all be sitting around discussing how my name spelt and if you could place me in Whitechapel at the time of the rippings. |
Helge Samuelsen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, February 19, 2005 - 4:52 pm: |
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We are all aware that the only information about this suspect is from the Empire News 23 october 1923 article, and this is not much to go on. Maybe it was all invented, or heavily distorted, in which case this discussion is not only academic, but also futile.
However, to believe that the Ripper case will actually be solved after all this time is rather optimistic in any case. Even in the case of the more probable suspects there are no evidence that nails any of them, only suspicion.
My dear Mr Wintergreen. Obviously ANY discussion on JTR is academic. The police at the time did not catch him, the evidence available today so far has cast suspicion on likely as well as unlikely suspects. In this respect Fogelma is no worse than many other candidates.
Yes, Fogelma was a lunatic. This does not in any way make him an unlikely suspect. He may still have been sane enough to appear normal at the time of the killings. As a matter of fact, the possibility that Jack, whoever he was, became\was insane has been discussed as a possibility elsewhere in relation to other suspects or general musings.
Fogelma was also a sailor. That possibility was also discussed by the police at the time.
A point should be that even if the paper botched up the spelling of the names, it seems at least to me, that these names are in fact NOT made up, but appear to be norwegian in origin. Hardly any hard evidence that the story is not false, but clearly no indication of this either.
Fogelma is even a candidate for a New York\Carrie Brown connection. He DID end up in NJ, not far from NY.
So we may choose to believe it was all made up, or choose to believe it MAY be true. If we opt for the latter, clearly to at least attempt to pursue the weak facts must be allowed.
If the news story WAS based on facts, then it is not just a case of any of us discussing simply a lunatic that was interested in the JTR case at all.. The article clearly states that:
"But during the intervals when his brain worked he muttered of scenes and incidents that connected him clearly with the atrocious crimes of 1888"
Now this can be interpreted in two ways: as if he knew details from newspaper clippings only, OR that he remembered details from his actual deeds. The wording "connected him clearly.." seems to me to point to the latter possibility.
Would his family have been so upset if he only ranted on about what was commonly known?
Do realize that his sister actually believed he was the Ripper. She, who obviously knew him well in real life, did NOT think he was just a lunatic with a heavy interest in the case. That ex PFC Wintergreen does, is fair enough. However, to believe we can know Fogelma better than his own family did at the time is rather naive.
Understand that his sister actually said that she belived:
"..he had done some terrible things in London"
This is what she told the reporter that she actually believed. A close relative believed this. At the time. If this is not enough in itself to warrant at least interest in the matter, then let us all go home, and disregard any suspects. Case closed. Unsolved. But where are the fun in that?
The case on Fogelma hinges on two things. a) That the newspaper report was not made up by some sensationalist reporter. And b) that Fogelma's sister genuinely had reasons to suspect her brother of these crimes.
At this time I certainly cannot know what is true, but if any pursuit of this matter reveals that, say, the article was a fraud, then I am (almost) as happy as if we should stumble upon some evidence that Fogelma was in fact Saucy Jack.
So far it is all academic. I know that. But at least we're not discussing Albert Victor ;)
Kind regards, Helge |
ex PFC Wintergreen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 8:28 am: |
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my bad
i'm a terrible historian
i just hope you can find it within your heart to forgive me |
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 3217
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 11:21 am: |
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For anyone interested in following up with Greystone Park Psychiatric Hospital, here is the contact info I used back in 1997 (they told me they had no record of a "Fogelma")
State of New Jersey
Dept. of Human Services
Division of Mental Health Services
Greystone Park Psychiatric Hospital
Greystone Park, NJ 07950
Tel: 201.538.1800
My contact was Maria Mancini, Acting Director, Medical Records.
For the record, the New-York Historical Society found no information at all on "Rev. J. Miosen" or on Nestorian churches in New York during the period in question.
They did come back with some information on 324 East 39th Street. It was a five-story building (block 944, lot 40). In 1897 it was owned by Geo. Jardine, who also owned lots 42 and 43 (an organ manufactory).
In 1997 I also found no listing for either Fogelma or Storsjan in the Jersey City or Morris County Censuses. No mention of Fogelma in the local Morris Cty. newspaper throughout 1902.
Morris Plains' town historian was Dan Myers in 1997. He may be able to assist anyone interested in following up. His contact info can be had via the Morris County Library, 201.285.6930.
Stephen P. Ryder, Exec. Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper
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Helge Samuelsen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 01, 2005 - 1:11 pm: |
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It might interest that I have finally decided to quit theorizing, and actually do something about this case.
I have written the following letter to the New Jersey State Archives for furter advice:
Dear Sirs,
As a poster on the Casebook: Jack the Ripper, a web site dedicated to research into the criminal case of Jack the Ripper of the 1888 London killings (and possible also ties to US cases from the period), I have looked into the possibility that the Rippers identity was actually known by criminal investigators at the Empire News newspaper (London), as exposed in an article of 23 october 1923.
Unfortunately this article is sparse with details, but the surname Fogelma is mentioned, and his sister was known as Helen Fogelma. These should both be of Norwegian origin, the names possibly then being a corruption (not uncommon at the time) of Helene Fuglemo. Other variations are possible, Voegelman(n), Vogelma(n), Fogelman(n), Vogelma, Fågelmann, Fågelmo, Fuglemann, Foglemann. His sister may have americanized her name as Helen, even though the norwegian equivalent is Helene. Several of the surnames above are existing, but probable to have been misquoted by english speaking reporters.
The suspect of the Ripper Killings may then not necessarily have been named Fogelma, but any of the variations quoted above.
According to the Empire News article, Fogelma spent time in the New Jersey Morris Plains Lunatic Asylum (Now Greystone Park), and died there in 1902. This is about all that are hard "facts" in this matter.
I assume other researchers have looked for the Name Fogelma in the asylums records, but according to Casebook has come up with nothing. This is not surprising, as a newspaper might well have misquoted a name, but hardly the mental institution in question. Accordingly the real Fogelma may still be identified.
My request is therefore, is there any way to access the files of the asylum from the time period in question? Please advice. I may have the opportunity to have a researcher come over from New York to look into this, if possible.
I would be most thankful for any advice into how to best pursue this investigation.
Kind regards
Helge Samuelsen
Possibly something might come out of this. We will see.
Some links to Morris Plains (Greystone) for more background:
http://www.hometowntales.com/greystone
Woddy Guthrie and Bob Dylan, eh? And the biggest structure in the US once? With creepy underground tunnels.. Yeah, that sounds just about right..
http://www.rootsweb.com/~asylums/morristown_nj/
Various pics, plans and drawings.
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Helge Samuelsen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 02, 2005 - 1:14 pm: |
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Wow, Stephen is actually visiting this tread ;) Thanks for the info.
Recently when I contacted the New Jersey State Archives, I got the following reply (in excerpts):
Dear Helge Samuelsen:
1) The State Archives does not have the patient records for Morris
Plains Lunatic Asylum (Now Greystone Park). You will have to contact
Greystone Park Hospital directly. We cannot say if they will release
any patent information.
Greystone Park Psychiatric Hospital
Greystone Park, NJ 07950
(973) 538-1800
2)The State Archives has acquired microfilm copies of the
following New Jersey State Vital Records:
Birth records: June 1878 to 1923;
Marriage and Death records: June 1878 to 1940.
HOWEVER, SINCE THE STATE ARCHIVES DOES NOT OWN THE ORIGINAL RECORDS,
THE ARCHIVES STAFF CANNOT SEARCH THESE RECORDS FOR THE PUBLIC. These
microfilms reels are open for research at the State Archives, Monday
through Friday, 8:30 a.m. to 4:30 p.m. (except state holidays). If you
are unable to visit the State Archives in person,you may wish to
consider retaining the services of a professional genealogist. If you
forward your mailing address, we can send you a listing of private
researchers.
Note: We scanned the Death Record Index for 1902. We did not find any
listing of Fogelma/Fuglemo/Faglemo/Fogleman/Voegelman/Vogelman/Vogleman.
You may want to plan a visit to the New Jersey State Archives, or a
hire a private researcher to search New Jersey Death Records. You may
need to search more than one year of death records. There is no
comprehensive index.
3) ALL MAIL REQUESTS FOR NEW JERSEY VITAL RECORDS FROM JUNE 1878
TO THE PRESENT SHOULD BE DIRECTED TO THE STATE REGISTRAR - BUREAU OF
VITAL STATISTICS.
New Jersey Dept. of Health
State Registrar Search Unit
PO Box 370
Trenton, NJ 08625-0370
(609) 292-4087
This information was kindly provided by Bette M. Epstein, NJ State Archives.
So, a major problem with the Fogelma theory is that no death under any of the proposed Fogelma "aliases" occurred in NJ in 1902!
Although, if one wishes to grasp at straws, perhaps the state and hospital records was never properly integrated? Not quite as improbable as it might appear at first glance..
But statistically speaking I would believe it is more probable that either the proposed "aliases" are wrong, or Fogelma never existed.
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Helge Samuelsen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, February 26, 2005 - 2:10 pm: |
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I allready have, my good sir! 
Fogelma is not necessarily the most popular suspect, but warrants some interest nevertheless. If only someone could check out the Morris Plains records in more detail than I suspect has been done before, we may get somewhere. |
Helge Samuelsen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 06, 2005 - 5:57 pm: |
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Ok, this one was submitted to me by my good friend Adriana Dvorska of New York, a real eerie insight into the Greystone complex. Pictures from closed down areas and all.
http://unquiettomb.com/greystone.html
If possible, the same Adriana will conduct a search through the files looking for our man. I will keep you posted if anything interesting happens.
Helge |
Vess
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, March 12, 2005 - 12:01 pm: |
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Would there be a possibility (probably for someone living there...) to check these records for *all* V... and F... patient names from 1902 (or even, say, the 1890-1910 period), then? (How many of them could have been there?)
The actual spelling of the name is obviously still unknown, but the consensus is that it must have began with a "V" or an "F". Going through the records and looking for names that sound or look similar to anything that could have been pronounced or spelled as "V/Fo/oe/ae/gelma...", be it Fogel, M. ;) or Voegelmann, might result in some findings...
(But then, maybe it was "von Gelmann"? ;) |
Mo sizlac
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 12:28 pm: |
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Are you honestly trying to tell me that the only evidence concerning this man as the ripper ,is his interest in the case while in the assylum.There isnt a single shred of actual evidence or suspision attatched to him.I think if you went to every lunatic assylum and listened to every 'nut 'who was fascinated with other 'nuts', and listed them as a suspect, you'd have a bloody long list. |
Helge Samuelsen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 - 1:04 pm: |
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Mo, I'm not sure if I am the one referred to as "you" (I do not consider this "my" tread, by any means), but I'll answer it anyway.
As I previously explained (post february 19) in an attempt to clarify the case for Fogelma, it is clearly not simply a matter of a "nut" being interested in the case. Read this post (and possibly the article in question as well), as I am not going to waste space on casebook repeating myself.
Actually Fogelma is represented as a suspect on the official "suspect" list, so I am not the first "nut" to talk about him. Even Stephen P. Ryder have done research on this suspect years before I was involved. My only contribution is to realize (and I don`t even claim to be a first here) that the name may very well be a corruption, a mistranslation, or even a typo, and the real person behind it may still be found by searching other possible spellings\interpretations in the asylum records.
Even then this person might not be Jack, obviously! Further research into the background of "Fogelma" is evidently needed, but impossible as long as the real identity is unknown.
A negative search (no such person ever existed) would help in making the case for the newspaper article in question being a hoax, thus closing at least one chapter of ripperology (though, who knows, some still seem to think Sickert could be two places at the same time..)
Considering that no other suspect is even remotely near being pin-pointed as Saucy Jacky, I am merely proposing being open minded about this case.
Opinions like yours, dear sir, is simply not helping much, either way.
Yours truly.. |
D.A.E.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 1:17 pm: |
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Hello,
The "Fogelma" theory piqued my curiosity when I discovered it in the latest Weird NJ issue. A quick google & I ended up here. As a psych student I must soon visit Greystone Park for field work, and while I am sure to make no discoveries regarding Fogelma I will no doubt be thinking of him as I walk the grounds. 
I found a NJ state web page that may be of interest to those looking to prove or disprove Fogelma's existence (and/or residence at the hospital). I know you have attempted to gain information from the state and the hospital before, so this page may not provide any new information. But I thought there was no harm in passing the URL along.
http://www.njarchives.org/links/webcat/queries/seinst08.html
I'll surely be keeping an eye open for any information about this mysterious fellow, and I'll be stopping back here from time to time--it's a great site!
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guest
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, October 08, 2005 - 12:27 am: |
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I know this thread is old but this site is loaded with Greystone info
http://www.gpph.net/intro.html |
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