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Julie Lambert
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 5:36 am: |       |
I find it very difficult to understand why Druitt was ever considered a serious candidate for JTR unless some much more substantial evidence against him exists.
It seems to me that, in the absence of any real forensic evidence or reliable witness evidence, a retrospective case has been built around the 'type' of person who may have committed the crime based mainly on popular media speculation and myth (i.e. a 'toff', 'tragic madman' etc).
Druitt, unfortunately, committed suicide shorty after the 'last' murder and was obviously sadly disturbed, but that does not make him a murderer.
The evidence used against him so far just does not add up. Firstly, it has been speculated that his dismissal from the school at Blackheath may have been due to his homosexual tendencies leading to the sexual abuse of his students. This is clearly nonsense. Men who sexually abuse boys are paedophiles. Homosexual men seek relationships with other men. Secondly, being homosexual does not automatically imply the hatred of women much less the desire to murder and rip them up.
Next, the claim that Druitt was 'sexually insane'. What does this mean? Does it refer to his assumed homosexuality? Is it a reference to 'indulgence in vices of a solitary nature' (how did anyone know?) or does it imply that Druitt used prostitutes? In this day and age, can we really use such terminology and ignorance to support a claim that the man was a serial killer?
Finally, the claim that his family 'believed him to be the murderer'. This in itself is not evidence. If his behaviour was strange and out of character in the last few weeks of his life, his family may well have had such fears, fuelled by popular media images of the perceived mind and appearance of the murderer. He may even have held such delusions himself and perhaps shared them with his brother or his cousin (who was a doctor).
There is no evidence to link Druitt to the murder scenes, no sensible motive for him to have been the murderer and no excusable reason for not officially naming him as the murderer if concrete evidence existed. |
Martin Fido
Detective Sergeant
Username: Fido
Post Number: 112
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 7:25 pm: | |
The reason for keeping Druitt on the list of serious suspects is very simple. He was the chosen suspect of a man who joined the force within months of the killings ending, knew everybody who worked on the case, had access to the files (including, no doubt, the all-important major sspect files which are now missing), was for some reason rquired to draft a memorandum summing up the position of the case when the Sun ran its articles on Cutbush, took a great personal interest in the case, and by his own account weighed what he knen very carefully before coming to his conclusion. While I doubt whether he was right, and can give chapter and verse for doubting him, I can't pretend to have as much firsthand knowledge of the case as he did - and nor can anyone alive today. So it would be foolhardy to simply dismiss Druitt as a suspect.
All the best,
Martin F |
Chris Phillips
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 83
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 3:50 am: | |
It seems a bit unfair to want to remove Druitt from the list of suspects on the grounds that there is no evidence linking him to the murder scenes, and no identifiable motive.
If only we had a suspect who was linked to the murder scenes by real evidence ...
And wasn't the motive that of a sexual serial killer - not likely to be evident from what we know of Druitt, apart from Macnaghten's comments?
On Druitt's assumed homosexuality, there is really no evidence at all for this, apart from Macnaghten's ambiguous phrase about "sexual insanity".
Chris Phillips
|
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 85
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 8:05 am: | |
I think it is important to analyse what Sir Melville Macnaghten sought, or was seeking, to do when he prepared his unpublicised memorandum in 1894.
Because, by so doing, we can throw a little bit of light on the evidence against Montague Druitt.
Firstly, Macnaghten was preparing evidence, presumeably drawn from available files, and the
memories of police who served at the time of the murders, to refute a published claim that the Ripper was probably Thomas Cutbush.
The fact that Cutbush was the nephew of a senior Scotland Yard policeman may have caused Macnaghten's galvanised activity.
By not sending this memorandum to the SUN newspaper, but rather placing it in the official files, Macnaghten was performing the task of the consumate civil servant.
He was preserving police confidentiality;
observing the correct letter of the law - by not publicly accusing an untried dead man; was not escalating a sensational press allegation; and, most important of all: was recording the fact for future historians that the police did, in fact, have their short list of chief suspects.
As to whether the information garnered by the police about Druitt was sufficient to lay guilt at his door, we may never know.
But, from the fragments cleverly strewn through newspaper articles and other people's memoirs, it appears Macnaghten had satisfied himself there was adequate proof Druitt fitted the killer's
template.
Now, and this is nebulous but important, would Macnaghten have felt Druitt must have been the Ripper solely on the evidence of his having suicided to coincide with the cessation of the murders?
Surely, Macnaghten would have sought proof that Druitt frequented the Whitechapel area (slumming with his middle-class cricketing pals? ), for him to be satisfied Druitt had the OPPORTUNITY to commit the crimes ? And so on..
AS Martin points out above, the loss of the MEPO suspects file is tragic. But other clues are out there still.. waiting to be unearthed by this Magnificent Band of Internet Ripperologists!!
|
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 348
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 8:26 am: | |
Hi Julie
I think the "case" against MJD is one of the few that is not a modern, retrospective creation. As Martin says above, the overwhelming reason for his inclusion as a major suspect is his inclusion in the MacNaghton memoranda. That in itself, of course, does not mean per se that there is an arguable case in the light of surviving information - we must not forget that Ostrog is also included on the same list and the case against him in the light of surviving details is even weaker.
The issue of Druitt's alleged homsexuality is, in my opinion, a complete red herring and more of a comment on the modern obsession that any "trouble" that leads to suicide must be sexual in nature. The arguments for MJD's being homosexual seem to be based on the fact that he got into "serious trouble" which meant he had to leave Valentine's school and that he was described as sexually insane. I have seen no convincing evidence that the use of this phrase in Victorian times was taken to mean, primarily, homosexual. It is just as arguable that MacNaghten is relating Druitt's alleged mental state to the type of person who would have committed the murders rather than alleging he was homosexual. The target of the post mortem injuries (i.e. excluding the wounds to the throat which were the means by which life was extinguished) was primarily the abdomen, the womb and the sexual organs. It is possible that "Sexually insane" was MacNaghton's shorthand way of describing the type of person he assumed was responsible for the killings.
As I have argued elsewhere, the "serious trouble" to could be open to other interpretations rather than his behaving inappropriately with one of his pupils. If we must invoke homosexuality as a factor in Monty's downfall, it is just as conceivable that he was sexually involved with his fellow teacher, Mark Francis Mann and that Valentine became aware of this. Or maybe he "came on" to mann who complained to Valentine.... all this is baseless and, ultimately fruitless, speculation but just as likely as his abusing his pupils. Another possibility, which I am sure Monty himself would have viewed as "serious trouble" was that the mental condition endemic in his family and which had affected his mother, had started to manifest itself in him. If MJD had felt his own mental faculties start to weaken, if he had started behaving oddly in and around the school, surely that could be seen as "serious trouble." And as MJD had seen the effect of the condition on his mother, it might make the mention of her in his alleged suicide note particularly meaningful.
Whether the information supplied by his family was "evidence", we simply cannot say. By definitionm it is impossible to comment on information which has been entirely lost. It may have been loose speculation, it may have been entirely damning and conclusive,- we have to say, however frustrating and galling it may be, that we simply do not know.
Regards
Chris |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 265
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 10:37 am: | |
Hi, all:
While not downplaying the importance of Macnaghten singling out Druitt for mention along with Ostrog and Kosminski, his list of suspects has the preamble that no one ever saw the Whitechapel murderer and that in his opinion each of the following three men were more likely suspects than Cutbush. This might imply that there were other suspects as well that he could have named from the official files and that also could have been more likely than Cutbush, e.g., Tumblety and others. I agree with Martin that the police most probably had information on Druitt that we do not have but I think we should also be open to the notion that Druitt, Ostrog, and Kosminski were only three of a number of "likely suspects" in the Scotland Yard files.
All the best
Chris |
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 86
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 6:37 am: | |
Hello Julie,
This is a worthwhile exercise, examining the Druitt suspicion beyond a narrow focus.
I agree with all of the above and certainly, Macnaghten did include Ostrog and Kosminski as equally more likely suspects than Cutbush, however, perhaps they are the refined - down list
spoken of in press reports as having been a list of seven, then three.
However, excluding the poorer emigre Jews, some of the longer list of suspects might have only been guilty of obsessing over newspaper reports and writing some of the Jack the Ripper letters.
Lets face it, there were probably a number of men frequenting the East End who, for various reasons, harboured a deep-seated hatred of the poor street women of Whitechapel and Spitalfields and obsessed about it.
Also, many 'respectable' families seemed to have whispered fears a member of their clan might have been the dreaded fiend.
I agree with Chris Phillips, the theme of 'sexually insane'used by Macnaghten and Anderson, might embrace a multitude of Victorian misunderstandings. Especially given Anderson's devout Christianity.
It has been suggested by a member of the Druitt family in a letter to me in 1979, that Montague might have been depressed enough to suicide because, having learned he had diabetes feared his cricketing career might now be over.
Sportsmen often experience a period of
depression when their sporting days come to a close.
But why, if this was Montague's reason for suicide, did he not give that as the reason in his note?
Other than Macnaghten's later - claimed further knowledge about Druitts culpability, an anonymous member of parliament from the West country was alleging he had privileged information that the 'son of a surgeon' had committed suicide after the last Ripper murder. But the politician could not name him for fear of a libel suit.
So others appear to have had information .
Albeit, this last sounds rather like early Macnaghten material. |
Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 352
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 8:33 am: | |
Hi John
Thanks for very good comments above.
As for Monty giving the reason for his suicide in his note, I still think that if the note(s) quoted at the inquest were genuine, the fact that he said he feared he was "going to be like Mother" is most likely to mean that he had fears for his own sanity and that the "serious trouble" may well have been these fears manifested in his behaviour at Eliot Place.
regards
chris |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 267
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 8:59 am: | |
Hi, John Ruffels:
You wrote--
It has been suggested by a member of the Druitt family in a letter to me in 1979, that Montague might have been depressed enough to suicide because, having learned he had diabetes feared his cricketing career might now be over. Sportsmen often experience a period of depression when their sporting days come to a close. But why, if this was Montague's reason for suicide, did he not give that as the reason in his note?
John, this is a very interesting theory and one that I have not heard before. Most theorists on Druitt appear give as possible reasons to want to commit suicide the history of insanity in his family and his dismissal from the school at Blackheath for either committing a homosexual act or acts or perhaps stealing. I think the theory that he might have been depressed about the idea that his cricketing career might be over is one that might hold water since we do know he was an avid cricketer.
We might also note that when he committed suicide, at the end of November, it would have been the "close season" for cricket, which is a summer pasttime, so he could have been depressed about that alone. I also don't think it that if he was depressed over his cricketing career potentially ending, he would have necessarily mentioned it in his suicide note. Rather, depression over the enforced end of his life as a sportsman could have been one a number of reasons for his unhappiness and resultant suicide.
I do have another, wilder theory about Druitt's death that has to do with the fact that his body was found floating off the Chiswick torpedo works of Thornycroft & Co. The fact that his body was found close to the factory of course might have been mere coincidence. But how about if he was murdered while spying on Thornycroft's for a foreign power?
As I documented in an article published in Ripperologist, Thornycroft's made not only torpedos but gunboats and torpedo destroyers, the forerunners of modern-day destroyers. They could have been working on some sensitive contracts in late 1888, and we know about the rivalry between Germany and Great Britain that continued into and was a contributing factor in causing World War I.
I have no evidence to back this theory up, and it may in truth be more grist for a fictional novel about Druitt than as a reasonable working theory about his death, but I thought I would bring it up as another possible reason for Druitt's death, even if an unlikely one, as far as we know.
All my best
Chris |
Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector
Username: Caz
Post Number: 247
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 9:20 am: | |
Hi All
Macnaghten did appear to favour Druitt. He was 'inclined to exonerate the last 2', having held 'strong opinions' about no.1 from the start, which became stronger the more he thought about it. But it was also his opinion that police suspicions about all three men had been 'very reasonable', out of the 'very many' homicidal maniacs suspected at one time or another. And of course we had Littlechild writing to Sims that 'to his mind', when considering police suspects, Tumblety could be singled out as a 'very likely' one.
The problem is that if at one time there existed clear, unambiguous information pointing to Druitt over Macnaghten's other two and Tumblety (or to Tumblety over Macnaghten's trio), it was either never shared for some reason, or those who had access to it held rather different opinions of its worth as evidence.
Neither is prepared to go the whole hog - Macnaghten doesn't eliminate his other two on the basis of information he has on Druitt; neither does Littlechild's 'very likely' close the door on other police suspects.
If we had access to all the information that ever existed on the named suspects, it might become clear why different opinions were held at the highest levels about their possible guilt, but I somehow doubt it would separate Jack from the also-rans (even if he were among our runners), and people would still have their own favourites, based on individual interpretation of the facts.
Love,
Caz
|
Julie Lambert
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 2:55 am: | |
Thanks Martin, I agree that, from a 19th century perspective, the circumstantial evidence against Druitt looks promising - he seems to fit the profile. However, I strongly feel that the evidence in itself seems to focus on the way in which mental illness was viewed at that time and I maintain that a family could easily have suspected a family member who seemed to be acting out of character at the time, especially if that member had delusions that he himself was the murderer (it did happen and still does, people fear they may be the perpetrator of sensational crimes that they have committed 'out of character').
Contrastingly, I believe the real ripper was someone who outwardly appeared to be very controlled and whose crimes allowed him empowerment and notoriety that he could secretly enjoy. He was probably a local man or a man who had local knowledge and someone who could adapt his behaviour to appear reassuringly normal to the women he killed. he was not caught because he was a random killer, in control of his actions and he may have committed suicide after the kelly murder not because he felt shame for his crimes or feared for the further declione of his mindbut because he feared that capture would have brought to an end the control over his life and actions that he needed. I would look for a Peter Sutcliffe character - Druitt is miles out. |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 526
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 10:42 am: | |
Hi all
Yes, he might have killed himself if he was worried about his cricket. I believe untreated diabetes affects the eyesight, though I don't know at what age it starts to do this. Plus of course other problems.
Re the spying for a foreign power, Druitt seemed to have it in for Bismarck when he was at college, calling his influence "morally and socially a curse to the world", according to Farson. Of course, people can change. Druitt an agent...Chris, are you suggesting he was licensed to kill?
Robert
|
Andrew Spallek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 63
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 1:59 pm: | |
The case against Druitt is a very complicated one. Physically he fits some of the descriptions very well and, as a cricketer, he certainly possessed the hand and arm strength required. However, he does have a rather good alibi in that he was reported playing in a morning cricket match miles away on the morning after one of the murders. This is a hard one for me to overcome.
Concerning the suidcide note, if it is genuine it does give a pretty specific reason for his self-demise: fear of becoming "like mother," i.e. insane (probably suffering depression). The two questions in my mind center on the words "since Friday" in the note. (1) Which Friday are we talking about? Most people assume he meant Friday Nov. 30, but what if the note had been lying around his room for weeks? What if he meant Friday Nov. 9 (Kelly murder) or even Friday August 31 (Nichols)? Why postulate this? Consider, (2) what caused Druitt to fear that he would become "like" mother? Most people assume it had something to do with his getting in trouble and being sacked. But is it likely that one would think "O dear, I've been sacked from my job. I guess that means I'll be going insane like my mother"? Not likely -- unless the reason for his termination had something to do with his (lack of complete) sanity. Would it just perhaps be more likely that it was his murder and mutilation of a prostitute that caused him to doubt his sanity?
I really don't consider Druitt the strongest suspect by any means, but there are mysterious questions to be answered.
PS - The inclusion of Ostrog on MacN's list does cause me to question his understandin of the case. Ostrog seems a totally unfit suspect. Unless, of course, there was also "private information" about this Russian.
Andy
|
Chris Phillips
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 84
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 3:13 pm: | |
However, he does have a rather good alibi in that he was reported playing in a morning cricket match miles away on the morning after one of the murders. This is a hard one for me to overcome.
None of Druitt's known cricket engagements provides anything like an alibi.
He played in Blackheath 5 or 6 hours after Chapman's murder, but the journey to Blackheath would have taken only a fraction of that time.
And he played in Dorset the day after the murder of Nichols. Obviously no good as an alibi, although it has been suggested that he may have been in the West Country continuously throughout August until then.
Chris Phillips
|
Andrew Spallek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 64
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 3:21 pm: | |
"He played in Blackheath 5 or 6 hours after Chapman's murder, but the journey to Blackheath would have taken only a fraction of that time. "
Certainly physically possible, but it is highly unlikely behavior after a murder. Not an ironclad alibi my any means, but a circumstantial alibi nonetheless.
Andy
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 105
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 10:27 pm: | |
Hi all,
Boy, what a lot to think about concerning poor
Monty (who remains poor Monty, the suicide, until
a) he is proved to be the Ripper, and b) he is
shown to have died either accidently or by a murder that he deserved to die by).
First on the issue of diabetes - yes, it was a
terrible malady to be suffering from in the late
19th and early 20th Centuries, for it was inevitably fatal, and could lead to blindness or
even insanity. And (from what I have read) several of Monty's family suffered from the illness (and several other members committed
suicide). However, it was not the worst illness
that one could suffer from in 1888. If Monty had
been presented with the choice of diabetes or
syphillis or cancer, he would have chosen diabetes. I can think of one of his contemporaries who suffered from diabetes. The
French author Jules Verne suffered from it until
his death in 1905. In this pre-insulin period
it must have been quite a trial for Verne, but
from 1888 until 1905 he produced two to three
new novels a year (including such major late work
as THE ETERNAL ADAM, PROPELLER ISLAND, and MASTER
OF THE WORLD). The disease need not have slowed
down the sufferer. However, to be even-handed,
Monty may have noticed symptoms that were less
severe than Verne's. Perhaps. But Verne also
kept a busy schedule in the period as a town
counselor in his native Amiens, and he had to
walk partially crippled after being shot by a
deranged nephew in 1886. It Monty had really bad
symptoms they would have to be worse than walking
on a crippled leg.
On Monty as a possible spy (for a foreign power, or for Britain) and being killed near the
Thorneycroft works, it is possible. Just possible. It is also possible Monty wanted to
write a novel or story in which a character drowns himself, and was experimenting (with tragic
consequences)to see what it would be like. However, it you insist on considering Bismarck as
a potential foreign foe who is trying to rid the
world of personal enemy Monty, keep these points
in mind:
1) In 1888 Britain and Germany were not in any
antagonistic situation in terms of foreign
power rivalries (thanks to Bismarck and
Disraeli). Ten years earlier, the two leaders
met at the Congress of Berlin to settle the
problems of the Balkans, Turkey, and Russia,
and did a pretty good job keeping the peace of
Europe. The two men realized that if they kept
their nations in equilibrium (respecting each
other's centers of power)peace would be
maintained. Bismarck summarized it
(supposedly) as "An elephant can't attack a
whale". In short, a major land power with a
great army need not attack a major naval power.
The relationship of friendship lasted while
Disraeli or Lord Salisbury was running the
British Government, but when Gladstone and the
Liberals were in charge the relations got
strained. In the early 1880s, there was a
brief flirtation of France (under Premier Jules
Ferry) and Germany - Ferry being the only
leading French politician of the period willing
to forget the defeat and humiliation of 1871,
to create a peaceful Europe). Bismarck was
very willing, and used the period to start
getting colonies for Germany in Africa, and
encouraging French confrontations with Britain
in Africa. But once Ferry lost power, and
Gladstone fell from power, Bismarck resumed his
pro-British policy. The naval rivalry of
Germany v. Britain really does not begin for
another decade (after Wilhelm II has dropped
Bismarck as his country's "pilot"). So,
Bismarck would not be interested in gathering
information about torpedo boats.
2) On the other hand, if Bismarck saw a figure as
a threat, he could be ruthless. At least three
prominent opponents were tossed out of the way
from 1886 to 1889, and some popular rumors
suggested Bismarck did more than just let
events go along by themselves -
1886 - King Ludwig II of Bavaria, the ruler of
the largest Catholic state in the German
Empire, and a persistant opponent of Bismarck
(Ludwig was allied to the Austrian Empire in
the Seven Weeks War against Prussia in 1866),
was overthroned by his advisors. He was sent
to an asylum at Lake Starnberg. He and the
asylum head, Dr. Gudden, were found drowned
in the Lake. Officially, Ludwig was believed
to have drowned Dr. Gudden in an effort to
escape, and then drowned (or died of a heart
attack) in fleeing. Unofficially, Ludwig's
subjects believed his overthrow was staged by
Bismarck, and Prussian agents killed Ludwig and
his doctor.
1888 - Upon the death of the old Emperor,
Wilhelm I, in March, his heir, Frederick became
Friedrich III. Married to Vicky, the daughter
of Queen Victoria, Friedrich was a political
Liberal, and hoped to replace Bismarck under
the German Constitution (by replacing him as
Prime Minister of Prussia). But Friedrich
was dying of throat cancer (a leading subject
in the international news of the day, due to
the behavior and rivalry of the British surgeon
Sir Morrell MacKenzie with his Prussian
opposite numbers). With the assistance of
Friedrich's ambitious heir, Prince Wilhelm,
Bismarck all but reduced the poor man to a
nullity for the ninety days he reigned until
he died in June 1888. Ironically, Bismarck's
heir (now Kaiser Wilhelm II) would throw him
out of office in two years.
1889 - The heir to the Hapsburg Empire of
Austria - Hungary, Crown Prince Rudolph, is
found shot to death at the hunting lodge at
Mayerling, near Vienna, with his mistress
Countess Marie Vetsera. It is usually
considered a highly tragic, romantic suicide
pact, as the Catholic Prince can't get a
divorce from his wife, Princess Stephanie of
Belgium. But persistant rumors suggest that
Rudolph, who hated Bismarck and Prussia, was
done away with to prevent the collapse of the
Dual Alliance of Germany and Austria-Hungary.
So there were possible victims of Bismarckian
machinations, but they were centered in Central
Europe - not in England.
In fact, if any foreign powers would have been
interested in spying at Thorneycroft, it would
not have been Germany but France (remember the
African colonial problems - they would have lasted
until 1898 when the French backed down at Fashoda
in the Sudan), and the Russian Empire (due to
rivalries in Afghanistan, Persia, and India).
Paging Dr. Pedachencko?
Best wishes,
Jeff |
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 87
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 5:22 am: | |
Oh Dear! We appear to be drifting away from Julie's original question on an eddy of Bismarckian improbability.(Now don't get all excited by the mention of "eddy" either).
As has been pointed out, we are at the mercy of too few tantalising facts on this suspect, as with so many others.
I mean, consider the alleged statement by Monty in his alleged suicide note: "Since Friday I feared I was going to be like Mother...".
Given our lack of knowledge of Monty's mother this could mean his mother had a terrible habit of getting on the Bristol Cream Sherry at family gatherings, and climbing onto the dinner table to loudly sing her rousing rendition of "Annie Laurie".
Of course, we assume this means he feared he might be going over the edge, to insanity.
Am I wrong in discerning a tendency to champion the underdog in Monty's career?
Did he choose which side in school debates he was on? He did prosecute for a poor ill-used nurse-maid in one of his final court appearances.
Would he have been a Toynbee Hall man?
His uncle, Robert, had been involved in regulations to clean up the East End tenement houses.
Was Monty known to drink Bristol Cream Sherry? |
R.J. Palmer
Detective Sergeant
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 118
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 10:07 am: | |
Has anyone tracked down why Monro retired to Chiswick? Did he have family connections there? Or was it just a lovely spot up the lazy river? |
Julie Lambert
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 11:26 am: | |
Thanks, all of you for your interesting and stimulating responses to my original posting.
You have all given me food for thought.
I was especially impressed by Andrew Spallek's point that we should examine what Druitt meant in his note when he wrote that "since Friday" I
fear I am getting like mother (or something similar). If he were the killer, and assuming that his mother was not also committing violent homocidal acts that Druitt had become aware of, he would hardly be fearful of becoming like her because clearly, his insane acts had more than surpassed her malady! However, it is important to consider what he meant, especially in light of his dismissal from the school.
Perhaps his mother suffered from dementia and he feared he was showing early signs (if he was clinically depressed he may well have been confused and forgetful). On the other hand, his mother may have been an alcoholic and perhaps Druitt was drinking heavily himself - a possible reason for his dismissal.
This is all pure speculation of course and it does not explain why his family feared that he may have been the murderer. That takes us back to my original point - his behaviour raised suspection and he became as strong candidate. As I wrote in my original posting 'unless some more substantial evidence exists' (which it might) we shall never know.
As it has been stated, Druitt was happily competently playing cricket until shortly before his death. His family had fears about him, but I wonder what his friends had noticed about his behaviour in the weeks leading up to his suicide?
One last thought, I can't help wondering if, somewhere along the way, Druitt might not have been confused with another young man who was dragged out of the Thames and who was, or had been, a doctor or medical student (thus the confusion over Druitt's profesion). I am undertaking some more research in this area.
Best wishes to all
Julie |
Robert Charles Linford
Chief Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 535
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 5:21 pm: | |
Hi Chris (Scott)
Did anything come of the Bousfield connection you mentioned in "Ripperologist" No. 44?
Robert |
Andrew Spallek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 67
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 5:49 pm: | |
Julie,
Some good thoughts on your part. I'm still bothered by the "Since Friday" remark -- it seems unnatural to me in a number of ways, especially if we suppose he wrote the note on Saturday, the presumed day of his alleged suicide (i.e., why not write "Since yesterday..."?
I wonder too about confusion. I also wonder if MJD really committed suicide of if his death was a homicide. It all seems to fit too neatly and apparently there was not a thorough post-mortem. Would weighing one's coat down with a few stones really be sufficient to drown an athletic person the likes of Druitt? On the other hand, swimming was not a particularly common skill in Victorian times. Do we know whether MJD was an accomplished swimmer?
Andy
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Chris Scott
Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 365
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 7:03 pm: | |
Hi Robert
I hope to be writing up a piece soon about some of the minor characters and what I found. This includes Bousfield, Mrs Buki and Mrs Fiddymont
Regards
Chris |
Andrew Spallek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 69
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 07, 2003 - 10:04 pm: | |
First of all, shouldn't this thread be moved under the Druitt heading in the "Suspects" message board?
Concerning the phrase "sexually insane," I find no occurance at all of the phrase in the "Making of America" archive of the Cornell University Library. This is a searchable databse of thousands of books and articles written between 1815 and 1926 by American and British authors. If it was a common euphemism for homosexuality, one would expect to find it here.
http://cdl.library.cornell.edu/moa/
Andy |
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 88
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 5:05 am: | |
Julie,
Regarding your question was Druitt mistaken for another suicide who might have been the actual murderer.
I recall, but can't find my notes for,a reference to a school master with a German-sounding surname, who drowned in the Thames around the same time as MJD.
This deceased gentleman hailed, I think, from Bath, and ended it all because he allegedly feared he may have been Jack The Ripper.
The reference was in The Times.
Speaking of the phrase "sexually insane"; I believe this was one of those Victorian phrases
which may indeed, have had serious undertones which could not be publicly expressed.
It is my belief Sir Robert Anderson, himself a devout Christian who joined the Committee of Dr Thomas Barnardos childrens charity which operated extensively in the East End, used the phrase "sexually insane" several times in one of his memoirs.
Adverting to Montague Druitt's possible diabetes,
one of the side affects, I understand, is a craving for the sugar in alcohol.
The importance of the serious trouble at the school which Druitt is supposed to have gotten into: it is my impression he was 'in loco parentis' as a House Master. That is, a live-in Master who was supposed to supervise the pupils, say on week-ends or outside school hours.
Just how he did this with frequent absences to play cricket "away games" and to conduct appearances at London court cases - let alone to busily slaughter five unfortunate East End women-
then perhaps he absented himself for unexplained reasons when he should have been supervising the welfare of his young charges. I think only he and one other Master and a housemaid and cook plus the Head Master were the entire school staff compliment.
There were likely, several causes of his "serious trouble. And if he was going slightly insane at the same time, all these things may have added to his concern for the demise of his illustrious cricketing career. |
Julie Lambert
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, August 08, 2003 - 5:55 am: | |
Dear All,
Further to my idea that Druitt may have been confused with another medical student/man found dead in the Thames. In a Peterborough (Cambs, UK) local newspaper dated November 17, 1888 there appears a story that had been syndicated from a national newspaper. It refers to a man arrested at the corner of Wentworth Street a few days previously. He was running through the streets proclaiming to be Jack The Ripper and was followed by a huge crowd crying 'Lynch him!'.
He was arrested and, for a time, treated as a serious suspect due to his appearance and clothes fitting the description of several witnesses. He described himself as a doctor. He was, it is believed, actually taken to Scotland Yard and interviewed by senior detectives but released.
I believe that this man was actually later found dead in the Thames and I am trying to find the original source of this information. That is not to say that I believe this suspect to be the murderer, but I think that several stories, rumours and myths have been woven into a suspect that eventually became Druitt.
There may well be more truth to the Druitt story than we currently give credit to because his name, description or background details (if sometimes un-named) seem to crop up frequently and from a number of sources but some of the details may be in conflict (such as his age, profession etc) because of these other characters and stories being woven into the case against Druitt.
To illustrate, think how people have frequently written themselves into the Ripper legacy via stories about lodgers, knives and late night encounters.
Always remembering that McNaughten wrote his notes from existing files and other notes, and that several versions appear to have existed, how much actually came from reliable sources?
Like to hear your views
Julie |
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