| Author |
Message |
    
Wallis
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 30, 2003 - 3:11 pm: | 
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I read at a website on a preview for the Jack the Ripper book by James Tully: "Prisoner 1167: The Madman Who Was Jack the Ripper" that James Kelly's (suspect) files will fully be released in 2030 because right now government files on him are closed. Once they are realsed they will tell us if HE was actually Jack the Ripper.
Just wondering if anybody heard about this. Can't wait for 2030!
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 195
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 6:44 pm: |
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Hi Wallis
I hope we don't have to wait for 2030 to get the information you mention. A lot of us will have gone completely batty speculating about the ripper long before that date.
These files, unless they are stolen or come up missing as so many of the ripper files have done, have a way of leaking out early. Stephen Knight had no trouble getting hold of files in the mid-seventies that were supposed to be closed until 1988.
I assume you mean that the website "preview" for Tully's book indicates that an updated version is in the works.
Best
Gary |
John Savage
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 61
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 7:58 pm: |
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Wallis,
Don't hold your breath for 2030, because if you read his book, when James Tully saw the file on James Kelly it was marked "Closed Until 1930". And I believe this is a standard practice for many Government files.
However Tully also records in his book that seventeen items had been removed as early as 1952,so come 2030 this file will agian be "weeded" and anything controversial will probably never see the light of day; if indeed it has not already been lost
Regards
John Savage |
Martin Fido
Detective Sergeant
Username: Fido
Post Number: 116
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 8:08 am: |
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Hi all!
I doubt very much whether the Kelly file is still closed. Since Hailsham ordered an "open government" release of files that were marked as closed for 50 or 100 years from their last active paper, hundreds have been brought into the light of day. Indeed, I was once shown a paper on one file which could obviously have caused so much distress to an innocent living person non-criminally connected to a notorious criminal that I brought it to the attention of the archivists and I believe they have now closed it.
I doubt whether Kelly's file holds anything that would cause distress to innocent living people , and I'm sure it wouldn't reveal police actions in an ongoing investigation. These are the two basic reasons for files being closed. So even if it isn't listed at Kew, I suggest anybody interested with serious research purposes writes to Scotland Yard archives and asks whether the file, or any parts of it, could be shown to them.
All the best,
Martin F |
Martin Fido
Detective Sergeant
Username: Fido
Post Number: 117
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 8:11 am: |
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PS If the file in question is actually an asylum record and not a MEPO file, then there really will be a probable 100 year delay. Fortune hunters trying to break wills are one of several good reasons why there is a really strict limitation on seeing them early. (Though my own experience shows that if your research purpose is serious and you have work under your belt to prove it, even the closed asylum records will be opened to you).
All the best,
Martin F |
Dan Norder
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 05, 2003 - 2:58 am: |
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:Looks at watch:
Already past the length of time I would bother waiting for these files.
If they contained info that proved him as the Ripper, then the people who made the files would have known. It's fairly certain nobody had solid proof back then or else we would have heard about it since. We haven't, so the files don't contain any smoking gun, obviously.
I suppose it's conceivable they contain info that didn't fit back then but does now, but I'm not holding my breath. |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 268
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 06, 2003 - 9:50 am: |
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Hi, all:
Unfortunately, James Tully, author of Prisoner 1167: The Madman Who Was Jack the Ripper, is deceased so I doubt if there is a new version of his book in the works, unless that is, he revised the book before his death, which might be so but I am unaware that is the case.
Best regards
Chris George
North American Editor
Ripperologist |
Michael Dunlop
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 24, 2003 - 7:38 am: |
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Perhaps I read a different James Tully book than everyone else, because in the book I read J.T. read the James Kelly H.O. file No.144/10064 and based most of the first chapter on what was contained withen.
Quote from Introduction in book page xiii "Finally came the magical moment when file number H.O.144/10064 was placed in my hands."
J.T. discovered no evidance linking James Kelly to the Ripper murders in his H.O. file, however 17 documents had been removed and destroyed in 1952.
So waiting untill 2030 is pointless we will only read what James Tully saw and most of that is contained in his book or at least it is in the book I have. |
Jason Scott Mullins
Detective Sergeant
Username: Crix0r
Post Number: 108
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 19, 2004 - 12:44 pm: |
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Hmmm..
I don't have the book to double check with. Martin, et al, is this true? Are we waiting for something that isn't going to help much? I also wonder how he knew the amount and when files were destroyed (17 documents in 1952).
crix0r |
QT
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 12:37 am: |
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HI THIS IS QT. I BELEIVE ARTHUR CONAN DOYLE SHOULD BE CONSIDERED A SUSPECT.HE WAS ACTUALLY A DOCTOR WITH NOT MUCH PRATICE AT THAT TIME&THE RIPPER MURDERS DO SHOW A HIGH DEGREE OF SURGICAL PRECISION. CAN IT NOT BE THE WORK OF A BORED DOCTOR INTERESTEDIN CRIME. ACD WROTE ABOUT MANY OF HIS DAYS MYSTERIOUS EVENTS .BUT NOT ABOUT THE RIPPER?WHY? |
Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 196
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 10:30 am: |
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Dear everyone,
I wouldn't read too much into documents being destroyed. Many papers are removed from files in a process known as weeding, it happens all the time. When you remove papers for destruction you make a note on the file cover ie, 'papers 13, 29, 46 and 34 weeded 25th May 2004'
These would be papers deemed not to be relevant, for example if a letter which was in the file was sent to someone and they replied with a thank you note that would be included in the file, but very quickly weeded.
QT go and lie down in a darkened room!
Bob |
Jason Scott Mullins
Inspector
Username: Crix0r
Post Number: 260
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 10:31 am: |
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HI THIS IS CRIX0R
I HAVE NO IDEA WHY YOU ARE TYPING IN ALL CAPS, NOR DO I PRETEND TO UNDERSTAND WHY YOU WOULD COME ONTO THE JAMES KELLY PORTION OF THE MESSAGE BOARD TO PROCLAIM SIR ARTHUR CONAN DOYLE A SUSPECT.
END OF LINE
crix0r
"I was born alone, I shall die alone. Embrace the emptiness, it is your end."
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Paul Jackson
Inspector
Username: Paulj
Post Number: 239
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 25, 2004 - 9:39 pm: |
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Lauging my ass off at crix0r! Great call dude!
QT- Surgical precision? Jack couldnt even rip in a straight line. Check out Eddowes morgue pics. I may get smacked for saying this, but, In my humble opinion, I dont think Jack had any surgical expertise at all. He cut out Chapmans bladder. Why would someone cut out someones bladder and get piss and everything all over themselves? I think hes just reached inside and grabbed an organ that was close to the female organs and just cut. People talk about Jack taking the Uterus and all that. The only organs he took were a bladder(chapman), two uturi(Chapman and Eddowes), one Kidney (Eddowes),
and one heart (Kelly). Those organs dont really have anything in common. So, to me, Jack didnt posess much more than a sharp knife and balls as big as Texas. Best regards.
Paul
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Martin Anderson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Scouse
Post Number: 66
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 6:56 pm: |
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Hello Wallis, Gary et al,
I'm afraid we will never know what those files contained unless they turn up surreptitiously. I have just finished reading JT's "The secret of prisoner 1167" and it was quite a congrous relation of events in 1888, with excellent references to Kelly's movements and character.
The author made special arrangements after several attempts to see file HO 144/10064 at the Public Relations Office. When the moment finally came, the file had on the front, in large letters, "CLOSED UNTIL 2030. This file should never be destroyed." - dated 5th November 1952. Just below was a note saying it had been destroyed on 25th Oct 1952".
Apparently 17 documents were all destroyed and the author pointed out that all official government Ripper files come under the general prefix of HO 144. (HO obviously standing for Home Office). I'm sure Martin or Chris can tell you more about this.
What I think was inferred, was that the files were related to the Ripper case because of the 144 prefix. However, now we will never know, not even in 2030, because they have been destroyed.
Other points the author made with regard to the files were:
i) Kelly had supplementary files under the prefix HO 45 which were separated from main files;
ii) Kelly's files were classed as sensitive which is a state normally reserved for those files causing distress or shame, especially to relatives;
iii) the Met Police have no surviving files whatsoever, despite documented communication between Broadmoor and the Home Office.
The only files that James Tully appears to have actually seen were the Broadmoor files. These did reveal a lot of reliable information about communication with the HO, communication to Kelly and medical opinion of Kelly.
Another good fact I learned from the book was that the day after Mary Kelly's murder, a raid was made in Mrs Brider's house. Mrs Brider was James Kelly's stepmother and was believed to have been harbouring him. Did the name Kelly trigger something off in Monroe's mind?
Hope this is clear.
Martin Anderson
Analyst
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 766
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 1:27 pm: |
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In the 60s and 70s we all used to think everything would be revealed c 1992 (or whenever the files were opened by the Home Office). They were opened c 1972 - and how much further forward did that take us?
Phil |
Maria Giordano
Inspector
Username: Mariag
Post Number: 448
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 1:40 pm: |
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I suspect that even if we found verifiably authentic documents intact since 1888 we'd still argue that they were a red herring.
Mags
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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 714
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 2:49 pm: |
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Phil,
They were opened c 1972 - and how much further forward did that take us?
Read a list of the files made available to the public in 1976 (the A to Z has a compact list) and I think you would change your opinion about their worth. Certainly no smoking gun (dripping knife?) but a number of items that have been the starting point for more modern scholarship as well as several pictures well worth more than a thousand words.
I am not so sanguine about any James Kelly files that may survive and if we do have to wait until 2030 I shan't know in any case.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 770
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 3:53 pm: |
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Don - the game in the 60s was to guess what name was written in the files. the assumption was that the police knew (but didn't have evidence). In fact Farson gave us the names before the files were opened.
I don't disagree that the information on the files is vital - but it didn't reveal the name as was expected; and THAT was the point of the thread.
Phil
Edited to correct a date.
(Message edited by Phil on August 30, 2005) |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 715
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 4:09 pm: |
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Phil,
Understood. Three, four, five words.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Catherine Ann
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 12:00 pm: |
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Why do you people insist on slating someone else who has a different view from your own? Sir Conan Doyle was mentioned during the ripper walk in London as being a possible suspect. You'll probably find that the most unlikely suspect commits the most horrendous murder like this. Doctors are quite capable of carving someone up, I don't believe jagged incisions has any bearing on the matter. It must've been someone with a pretty strong stomach, regarding the presence of urine, if he can stand the smell of blood and guts why would that bother him?
Some people type in capitals because they simply don't know how the keyboard works and it's quicker for them to type.
Best wishes. |
Martin Anderson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Scouse
Post Number: 69
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 1:39 pm: |
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GREETINGS CATHERINE,
"You'll probably find that the most unlikely suspect commits the most horrendous murder like this."
I'm guessing you have been watching a lot of Columbo recently? Far from it, although fitting into a normal daily routine, a lot of serial killers are early suspects and are noted for their strange behaviour.
Regards
Martin
Martin Anderson
Analyst
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 778
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 1:51 pm: |
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Catherine Ann - we have been into the Doyle nonsense on here fairly recently. It's rubbish. If it is, why not say so.
I for one have no truck with this PC view that all views are equal. I agree everyone has a right to express their views, but if they are not soundly based and lack credibility that needs to be pointed out.
As for smell, I doubt we know what even genteel Victorians had to put up with. in 1888, London was a city of the horse, the streets were piled high with their droppings. Clothes were not cleaned and people washed inadequately by today's standards. In the East End the squalor was incredible - read some of the accounts. I think it was Jack London who fled from a doss-house because the food he was given was so awful.
I see no reason why a local like kosminski should not have had or acquired a strong stomach.
phil |
Julie
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 115
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 5:45 pm: |
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Catherine Anne
I do indeed believe that the ripper will be exposed in 2030 when the Broadmoor records become available, however I do also think that it could be James Kelly or Thomas Cutbush who was also confined there. Cutbush is a controversial suspect indeed.
regards
Julie
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2899
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 6:04 pm: |
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Gosh!!!!! 2030!!!!! Cant wait!!!!! mind you a lot of us old farts will probably not be shuffling about by then.....although we may............out of spite!!!!!
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Martin Anderson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Scouse
Post Number: 72
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 6:27 pm: |
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Suzi,
No just to get the record straight - it's not out in 2030. As I mentioned before, it's been destroyed! I did not find this out, John Tulley did.
Sorry.
Martin Anderson
Analyst
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Uriah Hexam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 11:42 am: |
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Ladies and gentleman,
The truth will be revealed in 2030! Yes, children of all ages and morbid obsessions, I shall return from the dead in 2030, after having killed myself when the Bush daughters are elected president in 2016. The event is scheduled to be held at Wembley Stadium. After the reception there will be a concert performed by The Juwes...Jim Morrison on vocals, Jimi Hendrix on guitar, John Entwistle on base, and John Bonham on the drums, and let me tell you, after hearing these blokes, you won't want to blame them for nothing except loss of hearing. The show will open with the comic stylings of Graham Chapman who will read from Patricia Cornwell's newest book "Walter Sickert: Why I Still Think the Bastard Did it in spite of any Stupid Evidence."
In the words of Mr. Lennon (not Lenin)...
"A splendid time is guaranteed for all..." |
Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2901
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 12:48 pm: |
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In 2030 all being well, I will be 46, is that enough time?
...
insert your own joke here
Jenni
"You know I'm not gonna diss you on the Internet
Cause my momma taught me better than that."
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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 719
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 1:44 pm: |
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Jenni,
I have complete confidence that come 2030 you and Adam Went will be keeping these boards alive -- perhaps still arguing whether Liz Stride was a Ripper victim. Pretty glum future, huh?
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2094
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 6:42 am: |
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Hi Don,
I was thinking much the same thing - after I'd stopped laughing at Uriah's terrific post. (Could Janis Joplin perform too, Uriah? Just try keeping her away.)
God, can you imagine it? 'Why I Still Think We Can Make Progress by fingering those shifty swine Kidney and Barnett', 25 years down the line.
Love,
Caz
X |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 721
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 8:34 pm: |
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Caz,
It could be worse. Imagine it's 2030 and Jenni is getting breathless posts from newbies that say: "WOW, you mean you were here when THE David Radka was posting?"
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Martin Anderson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Scouse
Post Number: 75
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 9:03 pm: |
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Jennifer, are you really 21?
Martin Anderson
Analyst
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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 722
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 10:04 pm: |
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Martin,
Tsk, tsk -- you shouldn't ask a woman her age (unless she's claiming a senior's discount). But you can check the "Pub Talk>Happy Birthday Jenni" thread. 
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2911
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 6:09 am: |
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Martin,
would i lie?
Jenni
ps at least this means that i got the maths right!
pps Martin are you really 26!?
(Message edited by jdpegg on September 03, 2005)
"You know I'm not gonna diss you on the Internet
Cause my momma taught me better than that."
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2912
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 03, 2005 - 6:23 am: |
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Ps Don,
I would never take offence by such things personally!
"You know I'm not gonna diss you on the Internet
Cause my momma taught me better than that."
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Martin Anderson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Scouse
Post Number: 78
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 3:54 pm: |
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Hi everyone,
very busy at the moment so just a short one.
Thanks for that Don. If you don't ask you don't find out right!
But do you know I have never entered the pub talk until you pointed it out and now I feel such an idiot. It seems I missed the biggest event of the last year!
Anyway a very belated "Bon Anniversaire" Jenny.
ps I am now 27 - got to figure out how to change my age lol.
Martin Anderson
Analyst
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2927
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 3:58 pm: |
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Martin,
its easy just go into edit profile and change it and click save changes.
See I am helpful!!?
Anyway don't worry about it. I think I started it really by pointing out how old i would be in 2030 all being well!!
Jenni
"You know I'm not gonna diss you on the Internet
Cause my momma taught me better than that."
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2928
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 05, 2005 - 3:59 pm: |
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ps you did find out because i already said it !!
"You know I'm not gonna diss you on the Internet
Cause my momma taught me better than that."
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Uriah Hexam
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 02, 2005 - 10:46 pm: |
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Caroline,
Of course Janis is welcome. She can sing better dead than most living ladies. I forgot to add that on the bill as the opening acts are Annie Crook and her daughter Alice Margaret, appearing for the first time as ...wait for it...Destiny's Child and Big Aaron K. and his band Solitary Vices. We will be releasing a Memorandum shortly, a couple of versions, in fact.
Best wishes from a man who knows that lithium doesn't cure ignorance, more's the pity. |
