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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2477
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 6:23 pm: | 
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But, but, but… look at a case I’ve just thrown you from the very same year where a prostitute is held back from appearing in court on a very serious charge of her attempted murder, held back by friends of her ‘lover’, or pimp; and the one thing we do know about Kidney and Stride’s relationship is that she was due to appear in court to give evidence against Kidney for assault and she failed to appear.
The wall is there, my head hurts already, but I suppose I better bang it anyway. |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 930
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 07, 2005 - 8:12 pm: |
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Chris:
Maybe I am reading your post incorrectly,but wasn't Swanson actually saying in other words,of course, that Stride's story of abuse,to the degree claimed,didn't amount to much, because for Swanson to say "not the slightest pretext of a motive" seems pretty definitive.
Swanson indicated friends,associates,and peripheral people. One person,just one alone,with sufficient knowledge of claimed abuse could have quite easily spoken up and made the police reassess Kidney. Do you see what I mean here,or am I reading into this statement,Chris? Thanks...
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1366
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 3:52 am: |
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Howard
wasn't Swanson actually saying in other words,of course, that Stride's story of abuse,to the degree claimed,didn't amount to much
I think that must depend on whether Swanson was aware of the complaint in the first place. I haven't read anything to indicate that he was.
It was 18 months before, and I'm not clear whether the police would have interviewed anyone but Kidney who'd be likely to know of it.
On the whole I'd say that if he did know that Stride had taken Kidney to court for assault, it was remiss of him to say what he did without mentioning it, even if someone had poured cold water on the allegation.
Another question is why, if the police had considered Kidney a serious suspect, had investigated him and eliminated him, there shouldn't be a hint of it in the inquest evidence.
I'm not saying I think Kidney is a particularly likely murderer, but I think an awful lot of "must haves" and "couldn't haves" are being posted on the basis of no direct evidence.
Chris Phillips
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 933
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 5:41 pm: |
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Good points Chris...Thanks for the reply. |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1368
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 08, 2005 - 5:54 pm: |
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c.d.
Do you know why the police would have made such an outlandish statement like that given Kidney's background and his history of domestic violence?
Well, the obvious reason would be that they weren't aware of Stride's previous allegation of assault (I assume that's what you mean by "Kidney's background and his history of domestic violence").
I must say, you almost sound like a witness for the prosecution against Kidney. I suppose that's not really your intention, though.
Chris Phillips
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2571
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 1:03 pm: |
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Re Kidney’s appearance at the police station after Stride was murdered.
While trawling through reports about torsos and Thames, I found this case from July 6th 1886 involving one Robert Chinn who murdered his girlfriend by savagely beating her and then throwing her into the Thames to drown.
What is interesting is that Chinn walked into a police station the day after, demanded to speak to the superintendent and then told him that the girl ‘had committed suicide by throwing herself into the river’.
At the time the body had yet to be discovered, and the girl had not been reported missing.
Sort of confessed his own guilt there. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5068
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 2:32 pm: |
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Here it is AP.
Robert |
Frank van Oploo
Chief Inspector
Username: Franko
Post Number: 771
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 5:29 pm: |
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Very interesting case you managed to drag from the Thames, AP! Thanks for posting it - and thank you as well, Robert!
"There's gotta be a lot of reasons why I shouldn't shoot you, but right now I can't think of one."
- Clint Eastwood, in 'The Rookie' (1990)
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2578
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 6:15 pm: |
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Thanks Robert & Frank
funny thing is that one of the key officers involved in investigating the actual Thames Mystery was PC Chinn. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2585
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 4:53 pm: |
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I found this following exchange in court very interesting in regard to Michael Kidney and the murder of Stride.
This chap just appeared ‘out of the blue’ weeks after the relationship had finished and struck his former girlfriend twelve times around the head with a ‘bill-hook’ and then slit her throat.
‘THOMAS GOODCHILD . On the 21st of May, about half-past seven o'clock in the morning, I and Court were at the Coach and Horses, public-house, at Paddington, about a mile from the prosecutor's house; the prisoner came in to us, called for a quartern of gin, and asked us to drink a glass, which we did; I have known him some years. After we had drank he called us into the back yard, and said he had been and murdered a woman that morning; that he had knocked her down with a bill-book, and cut her throat with a razor. He spoke in that easy way, that we did not believe him. I asked him who he had murdered? he said " Jane Rogers - I am afraid I have not done it effectually; if I have, it will be the happiest moment I have ever seen in my life." He did not say why he had done it. It was agreed that Court should go up to the prisoner's house, and ask his daughter for two little pill-boxes that he wanted, and he would hear if there was any alarm - I was to remain with the prisoner. Court went, when he returned he said it was true. We immediately took the prisoner into custody, and delivered him up before the magistrate.
Cross-examined. Q. Had you any conversation with him before he told you this - A. No. He called us into the yard and told us - He gave no reason for it that I remember.
THOMAS COURT . I was in the public-house with the last witness. The prisoner came in - I have known him some years - We had some gin. He called us into the back yard, and said he had been committing murder that morning; he said it was Jane, whom he used to live with; that he had done it with a bill-book and a razor - We did not believe him. I went to inquire if it was true; I heard the report, returned, and took him into custody.
Cross-examined. He was a very good neighbour. The cool, quiet manner in which he spoke made me not believe him.
COURT. Q. Did he say anything about her throat - A. He said he cut it with a razor, and that he put his finger into the hole that he cut, to feel whether the windpipe was cut, and he was afraid he had not done it effectually, and he should be sorry if he had not.’
Interesting that the witnesses did not originally believe his statements about the murder because he spoke in a ‘easy way’ about the crime.
In this case the killer went to the pub to confess his crime, I still believe Kidney went to the police station to confess his crime. |
Jane Coram
Chief Inspector
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 587
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 28, 2005 - 6:30 pm: |
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?v[?C ry AP, and much food for thought......how do you keep coming up with these gems? Truly scary prospect though, that a man could so coldly and clinically kill someone he must have loved at one time.
Thank you for posting that.
Jane
xxxxxx |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2590
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 4:17 pm: |
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My pleasure, Jane.
It's just something that I do when I drink brandy. |
Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 29, 2005 - 9:46 am: |
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Hi AP - good stuff, subbstitute 'Bill Hook & Razor' for 58 Magnum and nothing has changed really.
To be honest I think we have to take what men like Kidney & Barnett say with a grain of salt because I doubt very much that these were relationships as we know them today.
Take Barnett for Example,he meets Kelly on Friday & by Saturday he's living with her!Romance or business? It was all the coroner could do in court to get him to admit she was even drunk sometimes!
I think for a good analogy of these kind of relationships it's an idea to take a look at Bill Sykes & Nancy in Dickens Oliver Twist.
Violence towards women was a way of life in 1888, and not only in Whitechapel, it ran through the whole of Victorian society rich or poor, as your able and engrossing research has shown.
But that still does not make Mr Kidney a killer, at best it makes him Mr Average.Where your research falls down AP is the exact same reason the police did'nt suspect Kidney,domestic violence was not unusual in 1888.
Truly scary prospect though, that a man could so coldly and clinically kill someone he must have loved at one time.
Then again Jane,if we did not know the circumstances behind the death of his wife we could say the same thing of Crippen.
Relationships in Victorian England were a far cry from what they are today & we should proceed with caution.
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sickard
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 06, 2005 - 12:53 am: |
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the steak is in the kinky kidney pudding |
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