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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 86
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 05, 2003 - 11:23 pm: | 
|
First, I am going to state I don't think Thomas
Neill Cream is Jack the Ripper. He has one of the
best alibis imaginable for a suspect: he was in
jail over four thousand miles away in Illinois.
But Cream is rather important in his own way. As Richard Altick says in his VICTORIAN STUDIES IN
SCARLET, it was Cream "[U]pon whose head was centered the storm of public indignation which would have been visited upon Jack the Ripper had he been caught, but which, in default of this, had
been pent up to await the appearance of a suitable substitute. There is no question that
Cream earned the honor." Professor Altick is writing about famous cases of Victorian Britain, so he is ignoring Fred Deeming, who shared the
dishonors of 1892, but Cream acted in neighborhoods not far distant from the Ripper's turf (whereas Deeming is officially involved in
murders at Rainhill near Liverpool, and Melbourne,
Australia - where he was hanged). In any case, if
one wanted to see what a Jack the Ripper trial might have been like, Dr. Cream is there to be a
model.
So, I have been looking up Cream regarding the website for the Brooklyn EAGLE [http://eagle.brooklynpubliclibrary.org]. I limitated my search for the year 1892, and found
the following items:
1) "LATE NEWS FROM ABROAD...AN AMERICAN IN THE BOW STREET POLICE STATION CHARGED WITH EXTORTION...[June 5, 1892, page 20]
2) "...AS NEILL HE IS SUSPECTED OF HAVING CAUSED The DEATH OF A THIRD WOMAN." [June 27, 1892, p.6]
3) "RECENT EVENTS (7th item)" [July 8, 1892, p.6]
4) "RECENT EVENTS (10th item)" [July 14, 1892, p.4]
5) "ACCUSED OF MURDER - THOMAS NEILL ARRAIGNED IN
A LONDON COURT" [July 18, 1892, Frontpage]
6) "THE TRIAL OF THOMAS NEILL. THE THIRD DAY OF THE TRIAL BRINGS ON A GREAT CROWD." [October 19,
1892, Front page]
7) "RECENT EVENTS (5th item)" [October 25, 1892,
page 4]
8) "RECENT EVENTS (23rd item)" [October 28, 1892,
page 4]
9) "WILL BE EXECUTED PRIVATELY. VERY LITTLE HOPE
FOR NEILL TO ESCAPE THE GALLOWS. [October 31,
1892, page 12]
10) "TRYING TO SAVE NEILL [October 31, 1892, page
12]
11) "WANTED THE BEST RIFLES....NEILL CREAM'S FATE
NEAR AT HAND....(3rd item)" [November 13, 1892,
page 20]
12)"THOMAS NEILL HANGED. THE PRISONER EXECUTED IN
NEWGATE PRISON To-day." {November 15, 1892, page 5]
13)"PROSECUTING MISS CLOVER'S PHYSICIAN. BECAUSE
HE ISSUED A CERTIFICATE OF DEATH WITHOUT INVESTIGATION." (December 23, 1892, page 1).
Following the items is instructive about the limits of information in this early period of
international news gathering. The Brooklyn Eagle's foreign news came from the International Telegram Company, a news gathering organization
that was created by William Mackay (one of the
men who made money out of the Comstock Lode).
As such it was a rival of the Associated Press.
It did give information to the newspapers that
used it, but it could be erroneous. In the case
of Cream, the item on page 4 of the July 14, 1892
issue states "Thomas Neill Cream was found guilty of the murder of Matilda Clover in London." Nothing of the sort - the arraignment was in July, the trial in October. There are other
errors. In the final article on Cream (regarding
his execution) on November 15, 1892, the reader is told Cream spent 13 years in prison for the
death of a woman in a malpractice incident in
Chicago. Actually he got a prison sentence for
the poison murder of Daniel Stott in Chicago in
1881, and served one decade.
Still it is instructive how the Cream case was
international news in 1892. Checking earlier
cases, the Eagle covered the trial of Dr. Lamson,
but not in such detail, in 1882. But Lamson involved international matters because of affidavits sent from the U.S. to show a history of insanity - President Arthur requested a delay
for the Home Secretary to study the affidavits: it
was granted. Lamson still hanged however. Cases
from Great Britain were not the only ones to gain
attention from the EAGLE and the U.S. newspapers.
The French murderer Pranzini's execution was covered in great detail in the issue of Wednesday
August 31, 1887 (pages 2 and 4).
The most interesting point is the last item regarding a side issue of the Cream Case. I will give the entire article for you to see this:
Brooklyn EAGLE, December 23, 1892, page 1:
"PROSECUTING MISS CLOVER'S PHYSICIAN
_______________
BECAUSE HE ISSUED A CERTIFICATE OF
DEATH WITHOUT INVESTIGATION
London, December 23 - The authorities have
instituted a prosecution against Dr. Robert
Graham, whose disregard of law in giving a
certificate of death in the case of Matilda
Clover, for whose murder Thomas Neill Cream was
recently executed, was largely responsible for the real cause of death being unsuspected until
suspicion was aroused by the personal admissions of Cream. At the inquest concerning the death of Matilda Clover, and subsequently at the trial of Cream in the Old Bailey. Dr. Graham testified that he gave the death certificate without having seen the woman during her last illness, although on prior occasions he had prescribed for her to couteract the effects of excessive drinking.
Dr. Graham's testimony elicited a severe rebuke from the court, and the authorities have
concluded that an example was necessary to deter physicians from granting death certificates in a similar manner and thus, unintentionally or otherwise, abiting in the concealment of crime.
The extreme penalty for such acts as that of which Dr. Graham is accused is seven years penal servitude."
It would be curious to know what happened to the
prosecution of Dr. Graham. He was less lucky than
his Scottish prototype, Dr. Patterson - the doctor
who suspected the illnesses of Dr. Edward Pritchard's wife and mother-in-law in Glasgow in
1865, but did not do anything to bring it to official attention, so that those ladies died. Patterson was condemned in the summation of the
trial judge, and in the court of public opinion, but not prosecuted by the law, nor censured by
the medical community.
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 87
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 06, 2003 - 12:54 am: |
|
There is only one other article in the Brooklyn
EAGLE regarding Dr. Graham and his problems. It
is only in the issue of January 8, 1893, on page
2. It continues the story of the Doctor's legal
problem related in the December 1892 article above:
"DR. GRAHAM HELD FOR TRIAL
_______________
FOR GIVING A FALSE CERTIFICATE AS TO THE
CAUSE OF MATILDA CLOVER'S DEATH
London, January 7 -- Dr. Robert Graham was
to-day committed to trial on the charge of having
given a false certificate of the death of Matilda
Clover.
The proceedings against Dr. Graham were taken
under the registration of births and deaths act
of 1874. That act made it compulsory for a duly
qualified medical man, on the medical list, to give a certificate setting forth to the best of
his knowledge and belief the cause of the death of any patient he had attended during his or her
last illness. Any one who gave a false certificate was liable on summary conviction to a fine of 10 pounds, or in case of conviction on
indictment to penal servitude for seven years.
In this case the person in respect to whose death
a certificate was given was Matilda Clover, one
of the victims of Neill Cream, who was executed a short time ago. Defendant is a fully qualified medical man, living in Upper Kennington lane.
Matilda Clover died on October 22 of last year. It is now known that her death was due to strychnine poisoning. She was taken ill in the night, and after undergoing extreme agony, died in
the morning. Death took place at her lodgings, South Lambeth road. During the night Mrs. Voles, the landlady, went for Dr. Graham, but he was out.
Later on she called again. He was then in, but
was too busy to attend to Miss Clover and recommended her to go for a medical man whose name
he mentioned. The landlady did so and a Mr. Coppin, an unqualified man, attended Miss Clover just prior to her death. Being unqualified, he was unable to give a certificate. Accordingly,
Dr. Graham was called upon to do so. He went to the house on the afternoon of the deceased's death. The servant girl, Lucy Rhodes, described to him the suffering that the deceased underwent
prior to her death, and said that before she expired she attributed her illness to pills given
to her by a man named Fred. Dr. Graham had previously attended Miss Clover, who was undoubtedly addicted to intemperance. After hearing all the servant girl and the landlady had to say, defendant signed a certificate to the effect that he saw Miss Clover on October 22, the
day on which she expired, and that to the best of his knowledge and belief death was due to alcoholism and syncope. This certificate concealed the cause of death for a long time, until Cream's own remarks led to suspicion and
detention."
It would still be interesting to know what was
the legal fate of Dr. Graham.
Jeff |
James Smith
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 1:05 pm: |
|
Dr. Cream was Jack The Ripper... the Double Alibi theory was true. The Murderer had to be someone who was highly dedicated to Anatomy..and knew their stuff.... Most of The witnesses of the deaths of the whitechape victims said that the age of the Man sighted with them.. was about 35/36, Dr.Cream was born in 1850 making him 38 when he murdered them.. The man apparently had a Mustache trned up at corners which is true of Dr. Cream. A witness of Mary Jane Kellys death said that the man with her had dark eyes which is true of Dr.Creams, The fact that he also looked Jewish checks out as Dr.Cream had dark features.. And why confess when you are about to be hanged that "I am Jack.....", Because he realised that there was no way it would make any difference...or perhaps he thought that the may be temporarily spared becuase he had information he could confess. Also The Murder of Elizabeth stride shows that when Schwartz saw the women being thrown onto the floor, and The two men noticed him.. 'Dr.Cream' shouted out 'Lipski' which was slang for a poison used.. We already know that Dr.Cream was experienced in Poisoning people.. need i ssay anymore? |
James Smith1
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 15, 2004 - 1:07 pm: |
|
Also I fogot to say that his handwriting is identical to that of The Ripper letters.. is that proof enough? |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 238
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 10:06 pm: |
|
Hello Mr. Smith,
You have certainly showed you believe Cream was the Ripper. Have you been doing any research about Cream on your own?
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Jerry Maynard
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, February 12, 2004 - 8:50 pm: |
|
James Smith
I think Dr. Cream wanted credit for the Ripper murders. He may have wrote a couple letters and made the confession at his execution to try to gain fame. He might have thought "Im going to die for my crimes anyway why not just claim to the Ripper and allow my name to go down in history".
Just my feeling. |
ex PFC Wintergreen
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 8:34 pm: |
|
James Smith, by your rational anyone who was in their mid thirties, had a moustache, had dark eyes and looked a little Jewish was Jack the Ripper. That must be hundreds of people, I don't understand how you believe hundreds of people could be responsible for the Ripper slayings.
If fact that's thousands, as you don't care whether or not they were in Whitechapel at the time.
Saying "I am Jack" means nothing. For all you know he might have been about to say "I am Jack the Ripper's acomplice" or "I am Jack the Ripper's biggest fan" or "I am Jacqueline Kennedy's secret lover".
The following is a list of other confessors to being Jack the Ripper, they can't all be him right?
Avery, John
Blanchard, Alfred Napier
Brodie, William Wallace
Bull, William
Davidson, John
Fitzgerald, John
Simm, Clarence
I can't quite understand your Case Closed attitude towards this, if this is you criteria why don't you suspect someone like Klosowski as well?
It's almost like you've decided on who Jack the Ripper and so you believe the clues that could possibly have something to do with your suspect must be the most important points.
ie. You have to believe the letters that are like Cream's handwriting must be sent by the Ripper, and that whoever said he has dark eyes must have seen the Ripper.
.. need I ssay more?
And Jeffrey I like what you've brought to attention here, how Cream almost became a scapegoat for the horrors of Jack the Ripper. Sounds a bit like deposing Saddam Hussein after Osama Bin Laden attacks your country. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 3025
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 1:33 pm: |
|
Hopefully - through the good agencies of Robert - there will be some useful material appearing here on Thomas Neill Cream and related matters, including samples of his handwriting.
Least of which is that the 'ex-detective' John Haynes, who gave much material evidence in the Cream trial, was a close associate of the master spy 'le Caron'. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5480
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 2:28 pm: |
|
Here we are then.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2765
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 01, 2006 - 5:58 pm: |
|
Thanks for that Ap and Robert.Its interesting to see
such figures as'ex detective" Haynes,closely connected with Le Caron-master spy who in turn was a very "close associate" of Anderson and Monro[for 21 years no less]here operating as a main "witness' in Cream"s murder trial.
Do you happen to know what else he was happening to be doing while he was involved in "witnessing"these events? |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 3026
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 3:53 am: |
|
No worries, Natalie
Yes, the relationship between Haynes and Le Caron is of absorbing interest isn’t it?
I do have Haynes’ entire testimony in the Cream trial, but that might be a bit too bulky to post on the boards, however there is one more page I’ve found - from the summing up and verdict - where Haynes admits that he has been in contact with Le Caron during the Cream trial, and that this contact concerned Cream and the trial.
I’ll dig it out and send it to Robert. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5481
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 4:02 am: |
|
Am posting it now.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5483
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 11:45 am: |
|
Here's Cream looking less sinister, but his medicine case more so.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2770
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 4:01 pm: |
|
Thanks again Ap and Robert,
Fascinating moment.By 1891 it was all over for Beach alias Le Caron.He was given permanent safe house for his work for Monro/Anderson.Parnell was broken and with him much of the dreaded Home Rule issue.The Chicago Dynamitards depleted/murdered etc.Even the concerns generated by the pious socialist /spiritualist Lees and his radical press were going to be put paid to [in 1895]by a ridiculous exposure in the Chicago press about his connections to some special"knowledge about JtR".His house in London apparently "raided"his family taken into custody. He fled to Cornwall with his large family never to give the authorities trouble again.
Lots and lots of such things happening!
Was Cream REALLY in prison in Chicago in 1888?
Have to break off re a programme....will return later.... |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2771
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 5:55 pm: |
|
Hi again Ap and Robert,
Is this man"s name John Hayes or John Haynes?
John P Hayes was a Philadelphia informer reporting ultimately to London and Jenkinson."Colluded with other spies[Casey, Captain Stephens etc in bogus Paris dynamite plots of 1885 and anti home rule propaganda campaign in London the same year.Set up mission to Moscow with PS Casssidy and Tevis in Paris in 1886,but didnt go through with it.Paid by The Times to find witnesses in winter 1888-9."
[from Fenian Fire by C. Campbell.]
If Hayes/Haynes were one and the same then his activities as a "witness" re the "Cream" trial could be significant and may yield benefits with
more careful investigation.
Was he a "professional witness" at this trial perhaps?If so why was his association with Le Caron dragged into it ?What were they getting at exactly? |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1042
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, January 02, 2006 - 8:39 pm: |
|
Hi Natalie,
Try to find Angus McLaren's book A PERSCRIPTION FOR MURDER: THE VICTORIAN SERIAL KILLINGS OF DR. THOMAS NEILL CREAM (Chicago & London: UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO PRESS, 1993). It is the best book on the evil doctor I know (even better in some ways than the NBT volume on his trial as "Thomas Neill". The Detective's name is John P. Haynes, not Hayes. He is described as having a contact at Scotland Yard (Patrick McIntyre) who was a police sergeant with the C.I.D. Haynes and McIntyre were involved in the Home Office's spying on terrorist activities in London and the arrival of suspicious individuals (like Tumblety, possibly?) from America. (P. 29)
However as you read later in the book some more details about Haynes come out. Some are not fully creditable - but we don't know why exactly. He was trained as an engineer, and worked in the U.S. assisting Beach/Le Caron in infiltrating the Fenians. He suggested that he worked in observing Fenian "dynomiters" in 1890 - 92. He also, on one occasion, claimed he knew Chief Inspector Littlechild (interesting choice there). When he offered his services to help catch Cream [I felt tempted to say to dry up Cream] somebody on a Scotland Yard report wrote a final "no". At the trial the Treasury refused the requests of Sir Robert Anderson to give him some stipend (he was unemployed at the time). The note from the Treasury that is quoted by McLaren refers to him as "Hayes", not "Haynes".
Possibly they are the same man.
McIntyre, his associate from the CID also came acropper in 1894 by his championing a relatively harmless group of anarchists, and by arguing with Le Caron (who was Anderson's darling). McIntyre got back by writing a series of articles for Reynold's Newspaper (a type of memoir) exposing Scotland Yard methods, and showing how it used spies to entrap Fenians.
[The information about Scotland Yard and Haynes and McIntyre are on pages 111 - 113 in McLaren's book. McLaren also annotated his work.].
If you can get a look at George Dilnot's TRIUMPHS OF DETECTION (London: Geoffrey Bles; Boston and New York: Houghton Mifflin, 1929), on page 258 are a set of photographs as illustrations showing four of the detectives on the Cream case. One of them is Detective Sgt. McIntyre - but not one of Haynes.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2772
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 3:34 am: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Many Thanks for those links.I am certainly very interested in this chap Haynes/Hayes.
After I posted last night I read up further on him myself and found the following information from the Fenian Fire book:
John P Hayes a Philadelphia informer who provided
Jenkinson with a warning on Thames Bridge Bombs.This was the episode that involved "John Fleming"[-a possible contender for Mary Kelly"s Joe?].Jenkinson had been warned by Haynes/Hayes that dynamite would be used and apparently feared for his own life[as infiltrator].Jenkinson pleaded with Monro to provide "protection"for him.Here its quite clear that this was one of the "agent provocateur" dynamite episodes and not a Fenian Dynamite plot.Whoever this particular John Fleming was then he was not a Fenian though he must have pretended to be.Enough to set off a " revenge" killing by duped Fenians perhaps?Just musing....
Hayes/Haynes must have been very useful too with his engineering skills,for he had apparently plotted the whole thing in Paris with the Casey at Le Caron"s address in Paris in the rue Daru.
In 1885/6 Parnell was defending himself against documents held by some "American Fenians" in London who were hostile to Parnell.On the same page-317 of Fenian Fire- it states:The second man was a civil engineer "established" in London named"Hayes".
The case Ap has found and Robert posted above
refers to this Haynes as saying he was an "engineer' and not a detective but it begins to sound more and more like they were one and the same dont you think?
There is one final and very intriguing foot note:
"H"[Hayes] brought two Englishmen to see Gen one day and talked dynamite war in their presence.
and then.....
"lived with whores while here and drank'
Best Wishes
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 3030
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 10:32 am: |
|
Thanks for all that, Natalie and Jeff.
Further on in the Cream trial proceedings MacIntyre freely admits that Haynes was officially employed by the British Government, and that they worked together.
I'll post the relevant page to Robert, and perhaps he'll be so kind as to post it here. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2773
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 11:30 am: |
|
I am keen to try to work out what was going on-so many thanks again Ap.Clearly such spies and infiltrators as Haynes were very valuable at various times to the govt and to Anderson.This man "H"in particular seems to have been responsible for warning Jenkinson of several major imminent conspiracies, dynamite attacks [the attack on the House of Commons/Westminster Hall etc
Some of these dynamite attacks seem to have been engineered by Le Caron but I think I am wrong above when I write that Haynes forewarned them about the specific attack thata " John Fleming" was involved in.This one was slightly earlier than the other more serious ones "H" was involved in warnings about.
John Fleming does "seem" to have been a regular member of Clan-na-Gael ,not an infiltrator-though its hard to tell really . He was blown up on Dec 10 1884 with two other members -a William Lomasney and his brother in a foiled attack on London Bridge.However its difficult to know which Clan members are genuine since there seem to have been almost as many British spies infiltrating Clan-na- Gael as there were actual Fenians and to make matters even worse quite a few gangsters and murderers amongst them!
As I suggest above, its just possible this Fleming may have been a relative of Mary Kelly"s Fleming and this was my reason for talking of a possible "punishment killing of Mary".She seemed to have made an impression on Joe Barnett about someone in her past getting "blown up" in some big disaster.[her story that it was a mining disaster etc may just have been camouflage after all].
On the other hand with regards to the explosion that John Fleming was involved in,a cache of the Safety Nitro Company of San Francisco dynamite they used was allegedly later found in Harrow Road, NW London which isnt anywhere near Mile End where Mary"s Fleming is said to have lived.
Sorry if this is confusing.Its more than just "confusing" to read about I must admit!Its like a great big spiders web of espionage and counter espionage-havent enjoyed reading about anything so much since I read "Kidnapped"under the bedcothes aged 8 with my torch in trembling hand! |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 3032
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 12:47 pm: |
|
Interesting what you say about Clan-Na-Gael, Natalie, being infiltrated by spies, gangsters and murderers.
For a while ago I came across a contemporary American illustration of the murder of Cronin - I think it was in Chicago? - and the four men accused of his murder have their actual photographs on the page, and two of them are captioned as ‘detectives’.
I’ll see if I can’t re-find the image and then ask Robert to throw it up here.
Sadly I know very little about the Cronin murder, but I do seem to remember it was carried out with much violence. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5491
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 2:02 pm: |
|
More from AP re Haynes.
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5492
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 2:21 pm: |
|
And here are some photos.
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5493
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 2:33 pm: |
|
More of the Monster.
 |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5494
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 2:35 pm: |
|
Sorry, wrong thread. He gets around, that Monster. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2775
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 3:24 pm: |
|
Ap,I cite again from Fenian Fire by Christy Campbell:
[background info The Chicago Tribune Feb 89 reported that Dr P H Cronin ,one of the moderate men in the Clan-na- Gael who wanted the organisation to support Parnell,was referred to yesterday in a way he must despise----Le Caron says he was on the committee which tried Cronin for Treason to Ireland....."------
the following three men from the "Sullivan camp'were deputed to carry out his murder order given by a Sullivan partisan named John F Beggs:
Daniel Coughlin,a detective in the Chicago police dept,Martin Burke and Patrick O"Sullivan an "ice-man" with a works near Lake Michigan would carry out the "removal".]
As Parnell was trying to deal with various accusations in the Royal Courts of Justice in May 1889 that would more or less finish off Home Rule and Parnell completely, the three man Cronin removal team moved into operation.....he was basically lured to the Ice Man"s cottage in Lake Michigan on a bogus call[as a medical doctor].
As he entered the cottage he was immediately struck from behind with an ice-hatchet by BurKe*
.Seven more blows killed him.The body was stripped and put in a trunk.A Catholic medallion around the neck was left untouched,The body was tipped into a storm drain on 4 May 1889.
*now I know where Stalin got his idea from to get rid of TrotsKy[identical murder weapon!]. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2776
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 3:56 pm: |
|
Thanks Robert for posting the photos and the extract.most interesting!
Regarding the Sullivan bossman referred to above.He was a Chicago lawyer as well as a Clan leader.In June 1888 a "Union Conference" was called,Beach, AKA Le Caron was there.A special attempt at unity was made amid hidden pistols and veiled threats.[Christy calls it "a grissly affair] Apparently Sullivan was livid with rage because he had been accused with two others[Boland and Feeley] by Dr Cronin and others in the Clan of political and financial fraud.He retaliated by stating his accusers were all British Spies!
....maybe he had a point!!!!!! |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2777
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 4:06 pm: |
|
A bit of a muddle over the Monster Robert!
Must find the thread! |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2778
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 5:30 pm: |
|
Jeff,
Thankyou for those leads above.
Can you suggest how I could get hold of the books you are recommending?
Are they collector type books?
Many Thanks
Natalie |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1043
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 03, 2006 - 9:49 pm: |
|
Hi Natalie,
Actually if you check a good second hand book store like Camille Wolfe's, you can probably get McLaren's book easily enough (it is only a decade old). Dilnot is one of the unsung heroes of Criminal historic writing. He's not mentioned as much as Edmund Pearson, F. Tennyson Jesse, William Bolitho (for only one book!), William Roughead, and Edgar Lustgarten, but he was an incredibly good writer and always worth reading. There are about seven or eight titles associated with him. It probably won't be too difficult to find copies of his collections. In any case, if you use say Ms Wolfe's, you probably can order a search for it.
And there is always the public library!
A bit more about the American Fenians, and Alexander Sullivan, the gentleman who probably was behind the Cronin killing. He had political aspirations, according to one source book I read. In 1884, knowing the power of the Irish voting bloc in the Democratic Party, he apparently aimed to be a serious candidate for the post of Vice President on the national ticket that year. A political foe reminded him that he was ineligible because he was a naturalized citizen (the Federal Constitution only allows people born in America to be candidates for the Presidency and Vice Presidency).
The Democrats, after nominating Grover Cleveland for the Presidency, nominated former Indiana Senator Thomas Hendricks for the Vice Presidency. They managed to beat Republicans James G. Blaine and John Logan. Hendricks died in office in 1885.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 3035
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 5:48 am: |
|
Just a couple of snippets which I’ve dug up out of the heap.
Le Caron was an ‘apothecary’ in Chicago, and eventually became the Vice-President of the Pharmaceutical Society of the United States.
This might well help explain the contact between Haynes and Le Caron in the Cream trial, as Cream claimed to represent an American Pharmaceutical company.
(‘At Scotland Yard’ by Sweeney. London 1904.)
Also regarding Haynes’ testimony to the court, it is worth remembering the rules of law:
‘There is no rule of law that the evidence of a police spy requires confirmation, nor any rule of practise which says that juries ought not to believe them.’
(‘Metropolitan Police Guide’ Page 682.) |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2779
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 10:19 am: |
|
Ap,
I believe what you have just quoted may be significant.
I have been reading up on Cream as well as rereading what Jeffrey posted.It seems that he could have had a double and Don Rumbelow quoting from the 'Life of Sir Edward Marshall Hall", Cream"s defence lawyer on a charge of bigamy had advised Cream to plead guilty
to it.cream protested that he had been in prison in Australia at the time of the offences.His description was sent to the prison in Sydney where he claimed to have been,and the prison confirmed that a man of that description had been in prison at the times in question.
Marshall Hall believed :Neil Cream had a double in the underworld and they went by the same name and used each others terms of imprisonment as alibis for each other.This has led to the suggestion that while Cream was serving his life sentence in America,his double was committing the Whitechapel murders.As the double had given Cream an alibi for the bigamy charge,Cream subsequently tried to repay the debt by shouting those last,interrupted words ..I am Jack the .....from the scaffold.
Well Cream was 38 years old at the time and a medical graduate of Magill University,Montreal.Therefore a fully qualified doctor.
Don Rumbelow BTW casts doubt on the story about him shouting out the famous words.He states that since the new Commissioner of City of london Police,Sir Henry Smith attended his execution and never, ever mentioned it or referred to it in any way whatsoever, this fact is very significant for noone ever claimed to have known more about Jack the Ripper than Sir Henry Smith.In fact Sir Henry makes this very claim in his autobiography!
Well..er.....so what? |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 3036
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 1:28 pm: |
|
Thanks for your kind words, Natalie.
I do know that Sir Edward Marshall Hall was the man you wanted in court on your side if you were up for murder, for it is my understanding that his court record for legally ‘saving’ murderers - who should have swung - is still unbeaten today.
Something else I have noticed while reading through the witness evidence of Cream and Haynes is that they both refer to police informers and spies as ‘Rips’ on numerous occasions.
That is interesting.
I don’t know about double cream though… perhaps if I drink enough brandy with it? |
Dan Norder
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 1091
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 4:26 pm: |
|
Hi Natalie,
The claims that Cream had a double or shouted out an interrupted confession to being Jack the Ripper were quite thoroughly debunked by our very own Jeff Bloomfield in the July 2005 issue of Ripper Notes, which goes into more detail than any previous investigation into those stories.
Jeff also had earlier articles on Cream in other publications that dived into various aspects of his life and are well worth tracking down.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5502
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 4:47 pm: |
|
Maybe he was going to cry "I am Jack the Ripper's double."
 |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2781
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 6:22 pm: |
|
Thanks Ap.I am reading on.......
Dan,
Yes I have just read Jeff"s "Gallows Humor" article -and enjoyed it very much indeed!How did I happen to miss it?----Maybe because until this past few days I had never considered Cream a possibility as a suspect and so even though I knew it would be a good read , Cream seemed so unlikely.I should have known better---
Cream now interests me I must admit.Chicago being in Illinois where Cream was banged up...then the epicentre of gangsterism,espionage/counter espionage you name it....and Cream had cash.He was quite a wealthy man by all accounts and his medical degree wasnt bogus.Maybe he knew how or rather who to bribe-as Ap says he seems to have known the argot!
So who might have done a deal with Cream perhaps?
And how come Haynes,perhaps the most celebrated of all the infiltrators linked with the Jubilee plot,came to "witness"all this about Cream?
Coincidence most probably....but worth consideration.
Oh and by the way a certain John Daly,who later became Mayor of Limerick was earlier a member of Clan-na- Gael and was Limerick born and bred.
In 1883 he arrived in England from New York armed with several parcels of dynamite and a detonator!He appears to have been set up by an "informant" Big Dan O"Neill
and tracked by Jenkinson"s men the moment he set foot off the boat from New York.
Natalie
That was a good joke Robert!
 |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1044
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 10:22 pm: |
|
Hi all,
Natalie there is nothing wrong with showing a healthy interest in Cream. The s.o.b. was a fascinating figure of evil. I'm always curious about his career as I was about Deeming's (or as I am currently following the business about Mr. Bury). But I don't think the roads leading to Cream will lead to Whitechapel in 1888. Still due to the closeness in time to Jack's activities, Cream's actions take on interest as a kind of copycat series of killings (albeit poisonings rather than mutilations, but of prostitutions in wretched hovels or streets). What gets me about Cream (as opposed to Jack) was 1) the possible monetary motive of blackmail (which I still don't think should be rejected) and 2) that with all the cleverness of using poison to kill his victims he did get caught - not Jack with all his close calls in the open streets of Whitechapel.
I have my theory about what led to the collapse of Cream - his choice of one of his blackmail victims was possibly more disastrous than he imagined it would be. I wrote about it once in THE CRIMINOLOGIST (Winter 1991, Volume 15, Number 4, p. 224 - 244 "THE DOCTOR WROTE SOME LETTERS".
A fascinating man definately. A horrendous individual certainly. But the Ripper? He was certainly not the Cream of my coffee there.
More is needed on possible links to the Fenians and Clan-na-gael and Cream should be pursued. So should any information on Mr. Hayes /Haynes.
I wish to add another point. I discovered a curious story about Fenian interests in Irish submarines before John Philip Holland ("father of the modern submarine") built the "Fenian Ram" (his prototype for the Holland - 1 that the U.S. navy bought in 1900). It seems that in 1880 James McClintock, the designer of the Confederate submarine "C.S.S. Hunley" had a meeting in the British Embassy with the consul and the military attache about how the Fenians had approached him to design a submarine. This is mentioned in the book,THE DYNAMITE WAR: IRISH AMERICAN BOMBERS IN VICTORIAN ENGLAND by K.R.M. Short (Dublin: Gill and Macmillan, 1979) on page 62. But I found out that McClintock was killed in an explosion a while before that meeting. The man at the meeting was an impostor. The Irish had ways of misleading the British as well as the Brits had for catching or entraping the Irish.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1328
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 10:45 pm: |
|
Gang:
One quick fact which we used last night in the Trivia Contest.
Cream shared the same legal counsel as Israel Lipski [ 1887 ] and Frederick Deeming !!! Small world............
His name was Arthur G. Geogehan, barrister,antiquarian and poet.
This can be found in the article on Frederick Deeming [ Ripperologist # 51, 2004 ] written by....drumroll... Jeff Bloomfield ! |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1047
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 04, 2006 - 10:53 pm: |
|
Thanks Howard. 
Gerald Geoghegan also shares one other attribute with another Ripper involved figure - his career in the toilet due to alcoholism and nerves, he apparently committed suicide in 1902, by poison - not by drowning like Monty Druitt, solicitor.
Now if we can only link him with Tumblety, D'Onston, the Maybricks, Sickert, and Hutchinson, Osrog, and one of the Kosminskis, and we will begin to get somewhere.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2782
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 4:56 am: |
|
hi Jeff and How,
Thanks and I shall follow those leads-I have Jeff's Ripperologist article and will read up on it again later.
Fascinated by the engineering knowledge they already had...there is much mention of the use of submarine"s in the book I mention above.Also of the speed with which telegraphs were being used and photographs to a lesser extent in the latter part of the 19th century.
Regarding who was conning who Jeff,it is truly complicated by the number of spies from either side in both camps!Hard to tell sometimes whose side they were originally on.The Daly chap from Limerick looks at first glance to be a bona fide
Fenian.Read up on his activities later and you cannot be sure.
Jenkinson evolved into a Parnell partisan,though very strongly against the bombing campaigns-unlike one or two others who recognised their usefulness at various key moments....
The chap Millen-F.M.[as well as a host of other AKA"s]full name Francis Frederick Millen,Brigadeer_General of Artillery[1831;1839]. joined Clan-na-Gael in Mexico[didnt they all get about too!]
He was commissioned by Alexander Sullivanto form an alliance with Paris Fenian exiles inJanuary 1887.He was named by Monroe in select committeee as head of Jubilee Plot.He made an offer to resume work in .....the Summer of 1888[!]He negotiated with the Times in winter of 1888/89 to testify at Special Commission-but died in 1889.
Didnt Mary Kelly claim to have French connections
and John McCarthy?Also Joe Barnett claimed she had a brother in the British Army?
off to read Jeff"s Ripperologist piece!
Best Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2783
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 11:50 am: |
|
I read Jeff's article this morning on Deeming.I had read it previously actually but it paid to read it again.Likewise Alan Sharp on what the Irish Press were saying at the same time.Both articles , as one would expect,made absorbing reading.
However it was an article in the same July 2004 Ripperologist by Chris George that caused me to pause in my tracks.Entitled "Assessing Evidence
Revisionism or Logic"I realised it tackled some of my current reasons for exploring the political
shenanigans in London and elsewhere during the Summer and Autumn of 1888.
In what is a very thoughtful article, Chris tells us that the term "revisionism" applies to taking a new view of a historic event,"often giving a different and opposite idea of the event to that of an earlier or prevailing view."He goes on to explain that the last decade has given us successive "revisionist views"of the case starting with James Maybrick etc etc
Finally Chris takes a look at what he terms an "Irish Nationalist Conspiracy" and concludes that
all this is "speculation' along with all the other "revisionist' theories and that all it does is take us away from the "evidence".
I stop here because Chris then goes on to carefully examine evidence and testimony and it takes me away from
my initial concern.
I find it surprising that the Ripper Murders are seldom rigorously examined within their socio-economic and political context.
I know some people have paid great attention to local context,trades,customs,languages/dialect, religion etc and a great deal of evidence has been minutely examined and chewed over.
But what about that precise moment in history,the Autumn of 1888? It makes your head spin just reading about it--- heads were rolling about by the dozen---- a whole can of worms spilling out not only in The Times and newspapers of London , Paris and New York but all over the newspaper world when Chief Commissioner of police, James Monro decided to throw[nearly] all his cards in the air at a Special Commission.
It was at this "Special Commission" that the spy Le Caron was to give evidence that would result in him going into hiding for the rest of his life.
Another spy Pigott, first confessed to forgerie ,then fled then committed suicide.
Frank Millen[FM]another "master spy"was found dead.
Too late for the Home rule For Ireland man ,Parnell-he was already finished-dead within a couple of years.
James Monro too had had enough and quit in 1890.
So what some may still say? Why talk about all this when its Jack we are after?
Well,IMHO,one good reason at least is that every senior member of the police involved in the Ripper hunt was concurrently up to their eyes in all this "other" business and it seems it had to take priority.
Anderson was totally committed and entirely wrapped up in it all that Autumn.
So was his boss Monro.So was Littlechild.
Therefore,since these men have each had leading parts in the ripper story one of them at the very least may have been in a position to know who JtR was.
But did they have a time left for anything else?
Abberline admittedly was still hard at it in the East End at least he was until The Cleveland Case erupted in 1889!
....and Chief Superintendent Charles Cutbush?
Well it was possibly around this time that he may have begun to be concerned about the poisoning of his water supply by Fenians-----makes some sense actually
when you read about Dr Cronin"s naked body being found in a drain with a Catholic medallion round his neck in May 1889. |
Andrew Spallek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 1049
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 12:43 pm: |
|
Neill Cream probably was "confessing" to be Jack the Ripper, if the hangman's tale is true. However, I strongly suspect this "confession" was an attempt to extend his life just a bit longer. If he had managed to get his confession out a second sooner the authorities might have postponed his execution long enough to have his claim examined and possibly even to try him for those crimes.
The prison alibi seems air-tight, however, the Illinois State Penitentiary at Joliet (near Chicago) has a long history of corruption and its officials accepting bribes.
Andy S. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2784
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 6:21 pm: |
|
Andrew,
Thanks for that especially the info on Illinois State penitentiary.For various reasons I believe Cream may have had his uses for some of these people.Now with what you say added to what Ap has posted about Haynes I am even more interested.
Natalie |
Andrew Spallek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 1050
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 6:29 pm: |
|
Being from Chicago myself, I know of Joliet's infamy. Leopold or Loeb (I forget which) bribed his way into special treatment while at Joliet. The other one was murdered there.
Andy S. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1048
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 9:45 pm: |
|
Hi Andy,
Richard Loeb was murdered at Joliet in 1936 or 37. He supposedly attempted to force himself on another male prisoner, who happened to carry a hand made knife. This attack occurred in the prison bathroom. When news of the death hit the Chicago newspapers, one had an account beginning, "Richard Loeb, a master of the English language, ended a sentence at Joliet Prison yesterday with a proposition."
Leopold did eventually get special permission, and an early release, but it is hard to say if this was due to his using bribes or not. He left the prison in 1957, and got married (!), and moved to Puerto Rico where he worked as a nurse. He died in 1971.
Natalie: Richard Pigott was a third rate Irish journalist, and occasional pornographer. He forged the so call "Parnellism and crime" letters that were at the center of the House of Commons inquiry into Parnell's possible link to Fenian and terrorist activity (particularly the Phoenix Park Murders) from 1887 - 1889. Pigott arranged for the letters to be bought by the Times of London, which published them, sparking the controversy. He (Pigott) was tripped up in a wonderfully dramatic cross-examination in March 1889 by former Attorney General Charles Russell in front of the Parnell Commission. It's quite a brilliant tour-de-force by Russell, and I recommend you read up on the Commission to see how he did it. Russell was also the defense attorney for Florence Maybrick in 1889. Pigott, after signing a confession, fled London and hid out in Madrid, where he blew his brains out when he was about to be arrested and extradited.
There is still serious questions about the relative ease of Pigott fleeing the country, as well as why he was put up to write the forgeries.
Many have suggested involvement by the Tory government of Lord Salisbury (and Home Secretary Matthews) and collusion by Scotland Yard. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2788
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 06, 2006 - 3:22 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
I reread the bit about Pigott in Fenian Fire-pages333/4
re 26/02/1889 Apparently there was a delay in issuing the arrest warrant for Piggot when he failed to turn up to court.He had already legged it to Paris on the 25th.
Before he went he left the Shannon affidavit.He had made a "confession' admitting to some but not all the forgery.
It seems clear, Jeff, that he was "allowed" to slip away to France by the powers that be. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1050
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 06, 2006 - 8:56 pm: |
|
Hi Natalie,
It probably was exactly that. If you recall that same year was the year of the Cleveland Street Scandal. Lord Arthur Somerset also was allowed to slip away (but he did not have to blow his brains out afterwards). And in 1895 there is evidence that after the verdict in the Queensbury libel suit, the Roseberry Government moved slowly for one day to give Oscar Wilde time to go to flee to Paris. It was a convenient way to try to avoid unpleasant scandalous side-affects. In Piggott's case, he'd been found out, confessed, and was guilty of forgery. He had to be brought back and tried. So that led to his having only one way out - killing himself.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2795
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 07, 2006 - 10:51 am: |
|
Hi Jeff,
yes I did think of Cleveland Street because the scandal broke the very same year- 1889-but I didnt realise Oscar could have escaped too! Maybe he preferred to call it a day or something.Mind he seemed to thoroughly enjoy shocking the establishment so maybe he preferred the masochistic pleasure of prison and be inspired to write those remarkable works, The Ballad of Reading Goal and De Profundis.
Very Interesting Jeff.Thanks.
Best
Natalie |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2463
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 08, 2006 - 11:00 am: |
|
Hi Jeff,
"Richard Loeb, a master of the English language, ended a sentence at Joliet Prison yesterday with a proposition."
I just showed my daughter this, as I knew she would appreciate it as much as I did. She grinned and remarked, "Jeff Bloomfied, eh? An unusual name". I said "No - it's Bloomfield". "Ah", said the youthful pedant of our household, "but does HE know that?" 
Love,
Caz
X |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1055
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 08, 2006 - 3:38 pm: |
|
Hi Caz,
I mistyped my last name as "Bloomfied" when I first signed up on the Casebook website, and there does not appear any way to correct it to the proper "Bloomfield". At least I did not write it as "Bloomfiend".
I am glad your daughter appreciated that newsparer quote.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1056
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, January 08, 2006 - 4:09 pm: |
|
Hi again Caz,
I meant "newspaper" quote, of course.
Jeff |
|
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