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Rudolph Giorani Unregistered guest
| Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 10:16 am: | |
On this site (http://www.ihrinfo.ac.uk/reviews/paper/scull.html) you find the strange remark that Forbes Winslow was "once suspected of being Jack the Ripper". It dates back to 1997. I always thought, Clanash Farjeon was the first to formulate this somewhat shaky "theory"? DOes anyone know something about this? RG |
Chris Scott
Inspector Username: Chris
Post Number: 250 Registered: 4-2003
| Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 2:08 pm: | |
Hi Rudolph the article you pointed out is even more cryptic in that the finger is not pointing at Forbes Winslow himself! The passage from the page you mentioned says "Men like Forbes Winslow and his son Lionel (once suspected of being Jack the Ripper)" which clearly implies it was FB's sone who was suspected It's a new one on me!!! Thanks for the pointer CS |
Chris Scott
Inspector Username: Chris
Post Number: 251 Registered: 4-2003
| Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 4:44 pm: | |
I can find no mention of a son Lionel, let alone one of an age to be considered as a suspect. I had problems locating Forbes Winslow in the 1881 census but see below: FORBES WINSLOW: 1881 CENSUS I have tried previously to find Forbes Winslow in the 1881 census but had been unable to trace him. This is due to a transcription error in that his surname is entered in the Census as WINSTON. Address: Sussex House Private Asylum, London Head: Lyttleton S. Forbes Winston (sic) aged 37 born in Bloomsbury Physician MRCP Medical Officer: William R Huggan aged 29 born Ireland Physician MRCP Wife: Florence J. Winston aged 36 born Cornwall Children: Francis F aged 8 born Hammersmith Darcy F aged 4 born Hammersmith
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Wolf Vanderlinden
Sergeant Username: Wolf
Post Number: 27 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Tuesday, June 10, 2003 - 3:53 pm: | |
Chris and Rudolph. Forbes Winslow and his wife had five children all together. Four boys and a girl. None of the boys were named Lionel however. At the time of the Whitechapel murders Percy Forbes Winslow was twenty years old and Ashton Forbes Winslow was eighteen. As you showed, Chris, Lyttleton Francis would have been fifteen in 1888 while Darcy would have been eleven. Their only sister, Dulcie, was born in either 1883 or 4. If one is looking for a medically minded Ripper suspect among the Forbes Winslow boys Ashton may have studied medicine while Percy and Lyttleton Francis definitely had. Francis becoming an Army doctor. Wolf |
Rudolph Giorani Unregistered guest
| Posted on Monday, June 09, 2003 - 5:10 pm: | |
Thanks for the input. I guess "Forbes Winslow" in said article refers to the father of the Winslow of Ripper-Fame (the father is the one treated in the book "Masters of Bedlam") and "Lionel" is a mistake meaning Lyttleton. That does not, however, clarify why Prof. Andrew Scull made him a ripper suspect in 1997. |
Bruce Tonnermann Unregistered guest
| Posted on Wednesday, June 11, 2003 - 1:17 pm: | |
It's amazing how people miss the obvious sources! The idea of Forbes Winslow as a Ripper suspect has been around for at least 40 years. From McCormick, 'The Identity of Jack the Ripper' - "Views such as these irritated the police and they tended to look upon Mr. Forbes Winslow as an unmitigated nuisance and a hindrance. All the detectives working on the cases knew him and at one time his ubiquity at the scene of the crimes caused them to check up on his movements. There was, of course, not the slightest evidence to link him with the murders." This invention of McCormick's was picked up, and added to, by Cullen in his 'When London Walked in Terror' - "So persistent was he in forcing his attentions upon the latter [the police] that they began to suspect Dr. Winslow of being Jack the Ripper, according to Donald McCormick..." |
Caroline Anne Morris
Detective Sergeant Username: Caz
Post Number: 134 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 7:01 am: | |
Not so amazing, Bruce, that people miss 'obvious' sources like these. You can hardly blame them when they are told in no uncertain terms, by people such as your good self, that anything deriving from McCormick is to be avoided like the plague. My own advice would be to read and absorb everything, so we know what - and who - is not taken seriously and why. Then less of the peripheral stuff would get missed. Love, Caz |
R.J. Palmer
Detective Sergeant Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 78 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Monday, June 16, 2003 - 11:28 am: | |
Detective Sergeant Benjamin Leeson, in Lost London (1934): "I am afraid I cannot throw any light on the 'Ripper's identity', but one thing I do know, and that is that amongst the police who were most concerned in the case there was a general feeling that a certain doctor, known to me, could have thrown quite a lot of light on the subject. This particular doctor was never far away when the crimes were committed..." [cited by Richard Whittington-Egan]. I think McCormick was assuming this referred to Winslow. Maybe it did. |
R.J. Palmer
Detective Sergeant Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 79 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 8:40 am: | |
Caz--Is Mr. Tonnermann's use of the word "invention" in describing McCormick really so far off the mark? I don't know if you've read McCormick lately (I've been reading him) but it it's rather startling that so many of McCormick's tidbits have no obvious primary source. After thirty or forty of such instances, one starts to assume that, where the record was silent, McCormick gave it voice. On a more interesting note, if Leeson's 'doctor' doesn't refer to Winslow, is there any guess who it does refer to? |
Martin Fido
Sergeant Username: Fido
Post Number: 11 Registered: 6-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 10:06 am: | |
The doctor - "Cohn" or "Koch": the name is barely audible - named by Inspector Keaton on his 1969 taped interview has always seemed to me a possibility. After all, Leeson and Keaton were both police on the ground at the time. But this is obviously nothing but a guess. This local doctor is the unresearched suspect I'd most like to know more about. All the best, Martin F |
Chris Scott
Inspector Username: Chris
Post Number: 262 Registered: 4-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 5:16 pm: | |
Hi Martin Im reattaching I did on the 1901 census that may be of interest that was posted to the old boards: COHN/KOCH Entry in the A-Z says: COHN, DR (or Koch) Recently alleged suspect. named by Inspector Keaton. Nothing more is presently known. A search under these names looking for medical content showed the following: 1) JAQUES COHN Aged 40 (i.e. 27 in 1888) Born: Prussia (German subject) Living: Hampstead, London Physician and Surgeon 2) WILFRED KOCH Aged 38 Born: Ceylon Living: Penge, London Doctor of Medicine May be of some interest I hope Chris scott
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Martin Fido
Sergeant Username: Fido
Post Number: 14 Registered: 6-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, June 18, 2003 - 11:29 pm: | |
Gosh! Thanks, Chris! Hampstead and Penge! I can't imagine two unlikelier places for the Ripper to base himself. (Well, I suppose, if pushed I could: Cape Wrath or Dunedin would be markedly worse). Perhaps we need to listen to the tape again - and wish that somebody could enhance it to make the name clear. All the best, Martin F |
Caroline Anne Morris
Detective Sergeant Username: Caz
Post Number: 148 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 6:27 am: | |
Hi RJ, Eh? Why do you ask me Is Mr. Tonnermann's use of the word "invention" in describing McCormick really so far off the mark? I never said a word about my own opinion of McCormick. At least, I didn't think I did. I merely observed that it is rather pointless tut-tutting at people for missing 'obvious' sources like McCormick if the advice is generally to steer well clear of those sources. Love, Caz |
R.J. Palmer
Detective Sergeant Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 80 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 10:22 am: | |
Caz---ToucheŽ--the old limping dog has now caught up with your point. If anyone wishes to take a walk on the wilder side....there was a Hampstead 'Ripper' connection mentioned by Peter Underwood. A Hampstead surgeon named Sir Thomas Spencer Well, author of Diseases of the Ovaries, was rumored to know the murderer; then again, his house was located next to a pub called 'The Old Bull'.
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Chris Scott
Inspector Username: Chris
Post Number: 263 Registered: 4-2003
| Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 11:29 am: | |
Hi Martin and all Out of interest I repeated the Cohn/Koch exercise with the 1891 census for those adult males of these names in the London census area. the results are below. 1891 Census COHN Adolph aged 38 - Stockbroker Albert aged 43 - Glass and china merchant Alfred aged 37- Glass merchant Alfred aged 25 - Clerk Stockbroker Bernard aged 27 - Tailor David aged 28 - occupation illegible Herbert aged 22- Actor Herman aged 39 - Tailor Herman D aged 38 - East India Merchant Herrmann aged 50 - Cotton Merchant Isaac aged 60 - Tailor Isaak aged 25 - Office clerk Isidore aged 31 - Tailor John aged 27 - Cook in hotel Joshua aged 64 - Restaurant keeper Leiman aged 58 - Carpenter Martin aged 22 - Publisher Marx aged 50 - Tailor's presser Maurice aged 41 - Banker Michael aged 23 - Fireman locomotive Moritz aged 27 - Traveller CJ Nicholas A aged 38 - Draper/Mercer Samuel aged 68 - Tailor Simon aged 57 - Clerk Solomon aged 34 - Tailor Theodor aged 35 - Publisher's manager Walter aged 45 - Clerk De Cohn aged 38 - Physician KOCH Albert aged 27 - Mercantile clerk Arthur aged 35 - Dentist's instrument maker August aged 44 - Boot manufacturer Ferdinand aged 24 - Draper's assistant Francis aged 22 - Commercial clerk Frederick aged 22 - Clerk Frederick W aged 60 - Shipping agent Frederick W aged 47 - Merchant and Foreign banker Heinrich aged 57 - Ward attendant - Hackney District German Hospital Herman aged 43 - Tailor John aged 43 - Baker John aged 59 - Slipper maker John G aged 36 - Demarcation officer (living in Penge and born in Ceylon) Joseph aged 25 - Warehouseman Louis aged 54 - Carpenter Martin aged 45 - Baker Richard aged 29 - Solicitor's Clerk Sigfred aged 26 - Fancy goods merchant Sigismund aged 68 - Professor of language school Theodore aged 48 - Tailor William aged 35 - Occupation "not known" William aged 26 - Plumber William aged 25 - Manager of dining rooms Points of interest: The obvious candidate for interset among the COHN entries is the last one. He is listed at the time of the 1891 Census as staying at the Royal Hotel, Bridewell in London. His details are given as follows: Dr. De Cohn Visitor Married Aged 38 Physician Born in Germany. Among the KOCH entries the only entry with any medical connnection is HEINRICH who is a ward attendant. However, although the Wilfred Koch from 1901 census is not listed, there is a strong likelihood of a family connection with John G who also is listed as living in Penge and being born in Ceylon. Hope this is of interest Chris S |
Martin Fido
Sergeant Username: Fido
Post Number: 16 Registered: 6-2003
| Posted on Thursday, June 19, 2003 - 11:33 am: | |
Yes, indeed. Many thanks, Chris. All the best, Martin F |
Christopher T George
Inspector Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 196 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Friday, June 20, 2003 - 3:24 pm: | |
Hi, all-- To follow up on R. J. Palmer's post in regard to a "Hampstead 'Ripper' connection mentioned by Peter Underwood. A Hampstead surgeon named Sir Thomas Spencer Wells, author of Diseases of the Ovaries, was rumored to know the murderer...." From The 1911 Edition Encyclopedia-- WELLS, SIR THOMAS SPENCER, 1ST BART. (1818-1897), English surgeon, was born at St Albans on the 3rd of February 1818, and received his medical education in Leeds, Dublin and St Thomas's Hospital, London (M.R.C.S. 1841). From 1841 to 1848 he served as a surgeon in the navy, and in 1848 he went to Paris to study pathology. In 1853 he settled in London, and took up ophthalmic surgery, interrupting his work to go out to the East in the Crimean War. In 1854 he became surgeon to the Samaritan Free Hospital for Women and Children, London. His reputation in surgery had obtained for him in 1844 the fellowship of the Royal College of Surgeons, and he subsequently became a member of council, Hunterian professor of surgery and pathology (1878), President (1882) and Hunterian Orator (1883). In 1883 he was made a baronet. His name is best known in connexion with his successful revival of the operation of ovariotomy, which had fallen into disrepute owing to the excessive mortality attending it; and in his skillful hands, assisted by modern surgical methods, the operation lost almost all its danger. His book on Diseases of the Ovaries was published in 1865. Sir Spencer Wells married in 1853 Miss Elizabeth Wright, and had a son and daughters. He died on the 31st of January 1897. His estate at Golder's Hill, Hampstead, was sold after his death to the London County Council and converted into a public park. I hope you find the above encylopedia entry of interest. I also found the following web page relevant to Dr. Spencer Wells-- Sir Thomas Spencer Wells in Malta Chris |
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant Username: Johnr
Post Number: 66 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 8:21 am: | |
Hampstead and Penge! Martin exclaimed. He couldn't think of two more unlikely Ripper suburbs. Don't forget Horace Rumpole's most successful criminal defence was in the celebrated Penge Bungalow Murders. |
Martin Fido
Sergeant Username: Fido
Post Number: 21 Registered: 6-2003
| Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 10:20 am: | |
Yes, but bungalow murders immediately suggest something domestic and suburban like the Stella Maris Villa shooting in Whitstable (Alfonso Austin Smith: 1926). And Penge's best-known homicide case was the death by wilful neglect of Harriet Staunton, being shipped belatedly from Cudham (where her brother-in-law had starved her) to the London Hospital (thoroughly d.o.a.). All very different from the home life of our own dear JtR. I'd believe anything of Hampstead residents... except that they would contaminate their beautifully manicured fingers with the poor and unwashed drabs of the East End... All the best, Martin F |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 71 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 10:35 am: | |
Hi Martin, You, being English, know about areas like Hampstead better than I do (being in America). But Hampstead had a murderess in it in 1888, who subsequently was (very briefly) associated with Jack the Ripper. Mrs. Pearcey deposited the bodies of Phoebe Hogg and her baby in a perambulator in Hampstead in 1890. But I admit it was not a Dr. Koch or Cohen or De Cohen. Best wishes, Jeff P.S. Forty years earlier Thomas Hocker had committed his murder in Hampstead (if Hampstead Heath is in Hampstead). As for the fictitious Penge Bungalow Murders of Mr. Rumpole, maybe the starvation murder of Harriet Staunton is more private than the Ripper (but given what the Ripper did to Mary Kelly in private that is problematic), still "Bungalow" murders can be more grusome than you suggest. Recall Patrick Mahon in the rented bungalow on the Crumbles in 1924. Jeff |
Martin Fido
Sergeant Username: Fido
Post Number: 22 Registered: 6-2003
| Posted on Saturday, June 21, 2003 - 10:58 am: | |
Actually Hocker killed Eugene DelaRue at Belsize Park, which I guess is Hampstead by a sort of long stretch. And Mrs Pearsey did her actual "Killing mice! Killing mice!" in her bijou kept-woman's residence in Camden Town, then going for a very long walk with the bodies in the perambulator, which fell apart, leaving mother and baby dumped in two separate places (one really Edgware Road rather than Hampstead). But Hampstead can boast (if that's the right word) the crime sites of the last two women hanged for murder in Britain. The ghastly Styllou Christofi killed her German daughter-in-law in Parliament Hill Fields (a residential road, not a field). And the unfortunate (in all senses) Ruth Ellis shot her horrible lover David Blakely just down the road, outside The Magdala Tavern. (I'm a great bore on this sort of thing, as I wrote the Murder Guide to London). All the best, Martin F |
Christopher T George
Inspector Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 197 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 11:19 am: | |
Hi, all: For what it is worth, let's not forget that at the time of the murders, Walter Sickert had his studio at 54 Broadhurst Gardens, South Hampstead, London, where he and his wife Ellen resided. All the best Chris
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Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant Username: Picapica
Post Number: 87 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Sunday, June 22, 2003 - 8:52 pm: | |
This is becoming to sound like a game of Mornington Crescent. Cheers, Mark My move: Archway |
M. HOUSTON
Unregistered guest
| Posted on Friday, June 27, 2003 - 4:06 pm: | |
CAN YOU HELP ME????? I have aquired an old family bible recently at an estate sale in Wrightsville Pa . The bible is from 1864. The bible belonged to a family by the last name of ASHTON. Inside that bible was a small newspaper clipping that read..." LONDON JUNE 22 Another shocking murder was discovered in Whitfield Street, Tottenham road. A foreign woman named Mrs. Ashton was found dead with her head shockingly disfigured. The last visitor observed by the neighbors was evidently a Frenchman and he is suspected of being the murderer." I found your website and typed in the SEARCH section the two words "Ashton" and "June" and the same article that I have came up on your site. What I am trying to figure out is if this person is related to the Bible I have? And is she a victim of Jack the Ripper? It seems likely since it was in this ASHTON family bible and the article is about a Mrs. Ashton being mysteriously murdered in London in June 22 1891. I am trying to piece together the relationship to the murdered victim and this family bible. In the article, it only describes her as MRS. Ashton. If I had her first name it would be so much easier of course. Was she a victim of Mr. Ripper? In the article, it calls Mrs. Ashton a "foreigner". I would like to know where she was from? The original owners of the bible that are inscribed in it are Jarvis Washington Ashton born July 24, 1831 died October 3, 1909. Jarvis was married to Rachel. Jarvis Ashton lived on the east coast in the USA and has been linked to a few towns in Pennsylvania such as Berks County, Wrightsville, York, Reading, and also the state of MD. Can you help me piece together this article to this family bible??? Please help. Melinda from Lancaster Pa |
Bob Hinton
Detective Sergeant Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 100 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Saturday, June 28, 2003 - 8:28 am: | |
Dear Melinda, One of the things you are going to appreciate if you are starting research of any kind is accuracy. I presume the article you are referring to is the Manitoba Daily Free Press of the 23 June 1891. Now nowhere in this very short article does it refer to a "Mrs Ashton", and yet three times in your question you assert that it does! The problem is if you let mistakes creep in right at the beginning of your search soon you will forget they were mistakes and accept them as fact, these boards are full of such errors. The article refers to a "Mme Ashton" which I'm sure you know is an abbreviation of Mamsoelle ( is that spelt right), which is the French form of address for an unmarried lady. This then ties in with the suspect being (believed) French. Which then leads on to suspect that this was simply a lovers quarrel that went wrong. The interesting thing are the injuries to the head, with no other injuries reported. This generally points to an acquaintance of the victim being the killer. It is therefore most unlikely that Mme Ashton was a victim of the Ripper. As for any possible relationship to the owner of the Bible it is impossible to tell. If you wanted to pursue it the first stop would be to obtain a copy of her death certificate and work from there. all the best Bob |
Valerie S Unregistered guest
| Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 12:18 pm: | |
It's hard to say if Mme. Ashton is related without a first name. I've been doing genealogy as a hobby for about 5 years. The best I was able to do was find out Jarvis Washington Ashton's father's name was Thomas R. Ashton he was a millright and was born in PA, Jarvis' mother was Catherine (?) Ashton born in PA. They are listed on the Carroll County, Maryland census in 1850 with the following children: Jarvis W., millright, 18yo Samuel J., Farm labour, 16yo Abagale, 11yo Cecilia, 8yo Dalas, 5yo male Sarah E., can't make out the age He and all of his siblings were born in Maryland. The name "Washington Ashton" got me excited because I know George Washington had a niece named Ann Washington Ashton, daughter of his half-brother Augustine Washington. I wasn't able to make a connection though. To add to the confusion, the 1880 census says Jarvis' father was born in Tennessee. I'd be more inclined to believe the 1850 census though since that was most likely coming from Thomas and not his son. I'll let you know if I find anything else out. Good Luck! Valerie
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Valerie S Unregistered guest
| Posted on Sunday, June 29, 2003 - 1:29 pm: | |
Melinda. I did a search on Dallas Ashton and filled in a few blanks. Jarvis' father's name was Thomas "Roberts" Ashton b. September 22, 1799 in Springfield Township, Bucks County, Pennsylvania . His father's name was Samuel Ashton, mother's name Jane Roberts. Jarvis' mother's name was Marie Catherine Pfleiger(Pfleuger). I could go on but I think I've given you enough information to find the family tree at Ancestry.com. Bottom line is, there is no relation that I can find to George Washington's niece. Those Ashton's were from England, these are from Ireland. This family tree was put together by the family of Jarvis' brother Samuel 'Jackson' Ashton. So, it looks like this family liked to use President's surnames as their son's middle names. There were a few Ashtons in that area of London that claimed Irish ancestry and a couple of Ashtons from France on the 1891 census. I found a Laura Ashton, born in France(British subject), who was 25, was a lodger and a dressmaker living at 44 Porchester Rd., Paddington. HTH Valerie
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Caroline Anne Morris
Inspector Username: Caz
Post Number: 167 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Monday, June 30, 2003 - 11:51 am: | |
Hi Bob, A French Miss is a 'mademoiselle', while the missus (and also women 'of a certain age', married or not, which complicates things further!) is a 'madame'. I may be wrong but I thought Mme was actually the abbreviation for Madame (while Mademoiselle was shortened to something like Mlle?). No doubt someone will leap in to help with any corrections. Love, Caz |
Mick Lyden
Unregistered guest
| Posted on Wednesday, July 02, 2003 - 6:40 pm: | |
Hello, If anybody owns a copy of inspector Keaton's taped interview and can "MP3" it and send it to me,I would be happy to try restore and enhance the audio. This would involve removing background noises such as tape hiss and mains hum and the use of other processes which can enhance the intelligibility of muffled voices. So if any body has a copy and can send to me,in MP3 format at 320k/s or above,I will try to enhance the file. I can then upload the restored version,making it available to the Casebook. All the best, Mick Lyden |
Ryan Dailey
Unregistered guest
| Posted on Friday, October 31, 2003 - 11:48 am: | |
I'm not to familiar to the case but I think the Ripper was someone who had just become a doctor, buy the styles of murder he was very eccentric, and the police did catch him but not for the murders, for something else unless he killed himself. That's the base of my research. |
Scott Cleland
Unregistered guest
| Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 8:55 am: | |
Hello. I just have couple of questions I hoped can be answered. Firstly, has anyone done extensive research on the possibility that mispellings and accents have played a part in floating misinformation. For example, I have read that the name of one suspect has been traced back to no avail. The name I believe is Fogelma. Apparently it is rare. I have a friend by the family name of Finlen,which again is very rare and came about through a mispelling itself. There are only three Finlen families in the world. Apart from the main obvious problem for you guys, that being, to many likely candidates, it seems to be you may also be plauged by perhaps something simple, but difficult to see like a process of misrecording etc through mispelling and mispronunciation. I saw on this board a reference to a The Three Tuns or The Three Nuns. Again,this element of a linguistic type innocently crops up again. Kosminski is another name that would lend itself to poor pronunciation and mispelling. Especially given the education level and class structure of the time-which is often a contruction maintained through dialects and accents amongst other things. Perhaps a linguist could shed some light on this by doing a systematic study on the possibilities using all the records available. Lastly, I lost track of how many bloodied shirts etc etc were shown or not shown to the police, but does any biological evidence remain that is usable? Lastly, how much of the structural environment is still intact for study at present? Thank you for your help. P.S It's a great site. A friend of mine has a Phd in Historical Archaeology and she is often found nose deep in written records. I will put her on to your site, I think she will love it. It really is a good site. Well done! |
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