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  | Archive through July 24, 2003 | James Eric Carter | 25 | 1 | 7-24-03 5:23 pm |
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Monty
Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 196
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 11:07 am: |       |
Eric,
I see your point of view. If it aint broke....
But Robert makes an excellent point over on the Tabram thread. Maybe the stabbing and the thrusting wasnt what Jacky expected it to be. No thrill for him.
Its just something I feel should be taken into consideration. His MO isnt just about how quickly and cleanly he escapes but is also what is going on inside his head. How he works to achieve his own personal goals and if he was unsatisfied then he may change inorder to quench the 'thirst'.
But you are right of course, I could be wrong also.
Regards
Monty
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James Eric Carter
Sergeant
Username: Archangel261973
Post Number: 13
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 25, 2003 - 2:58 pm: | |
Monty,
There is also the fact that almost all of the "5" showed signs that they were frist throttled before their throats were cut, so then if we assume that was the case for all of them and it was missed for what ever reason on some, then what we'd want to look for are stangulations in the area prior to the murders starting.
Now I do see some similarites in the Tabram case and the Pinchin St. murder. Its possible that there were two different killers about, and that Tabram's killer was a sailor and part for the reason for the gap between murders was the murderer was gone on ship. And remember there is also the Whitehall mysery and the Elizabeth Jackson murders.
Of corse, its still all smoke and mirrors with out real evidence. ;-)
Later,
Eric |
Jon Smyth
Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 48
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 29, 2003 - 10:06 pm: | |
"There is also the fact that almost all of the "5" showed signs that they were frist throttled before their throats were cut,..."
Well, actually Eric, Chapman's tongue protruded between her teeth but not her lips and Tabrams fists were said to be clenched.
Assuming you hold Tabram to be a Ripper victim then these are two victims, the only two, which are believed to show signs of strangulation, or choking by some means.
There are no details on Nichols, Chapman, Stride, or Eddowes to indicate strangulation, prior to death.
However, one news report describes Nichols hands as clenched (while at the mortuary? - I can't recall) but, as rigor is well known to contract the smaller muscles first, and this includes the finger muscles, then we cannot take this observation as a sign of strangulation being so long after the death of the victim.
Next, black blood was found around the brain during Chapmans autopsy, another indication of restricted breathing prior to death.
This was also discovered in the brain of Rose Mylett.
The highly indicative evidence of hands-on strangulation indicated by bruising around the throat (thumb & finger pressure) was not recorded by any doctor on any victim. There is however some possibility with Kelly, but it is not conclusive and could have been caused by a blow, not pressure, if indeed it is evidence of bruising at all.
There are two issues here.
Typically, during 'hands-on' strangulation you are really restricting the flow of oxygen to the brain, rarely does it stop the flow of blood.
If you use a cord, a garrott, then you also restrict the flow of blood. This can cause either one of two conditions in the body. If the position (placement) of the cord compresses the arteries the brain drains of blood, the heart still pumps but there is no replacement and the victim passes out.
But, if the cord compresses the veins, the arteries still pump and they find no release and capiliares carrying blood actually burst, this condition becomes evident in the skin and tissues.
It is possible to position the cord so as to compress both veins and arteries, which is again a different matter.
So, there is evidence of restriced breathing on some, prior to death, but not of hands-on strangulation. Now, how can that be?
Regards, Jon |
Randy Scholl
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 4:42 pm: | |
"So, there is evidence of restriced breathing on some, prior to death, but not of hands-on strangulation. Now, how can that be?"
Is it possible to smother someone with your bare hands? (Perhaps pinching the nose with one hand while covering the mouth) If so, would that be consistent with the evidence? |
Jon Smyth
Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 50
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 31, 2003 - 8:04 pm: | |
Randy.
An attempt at suffocation as you describe would leave bruises in the very area's you mention (nose/mouth). Bruises are noted in some of the cases (jaw/cheek) but not in the area's you described.
You ask....
"Is it possible to smother someone with your bare hands?"
Yes, of course, they've been doing it for centuries.
:-)
I do not think smothered victims are known to have their tongues protrude (how could it if the mouth is closed?) and also, lack of evidence by way of bruises around the nose/mouth.
Tentatively, I would say such an attack does not meet with the evidence we have, except to say that 'suffocation' would result in the black blood, noted in the heart of Mylett.
However, the evidence is sorely lacking in many respects.
When I mention this 'garrott', it is only a suggestion, and the medical evidence does not infer or imply this was thee method applied.
I am just throwing it in because...
1) - we have one example where it appears it was used (Mylett).
2) - We have the 'experienced' medical opinion that this method 'may' have been used on previous victims.
3) The medical evidence on the rest of the victims does not indicate it could not have been used.
And those 3 points are not satisfactory to draw any firm conclusions.
Regards, Jon
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 182
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 8:04 pm: | |
Hi Jon
Re: Annie Chapman:
"The tongue protruded between the front teeth, but not beyond the lips...(Wynne Baxter) noticed the same protrusion of tongue......From these appearances he was of the opinion that the breathing was interfered with prior to death...(W)ith regard to the idea that she might have been gagged he could only point to the swollen face and protruding tongue, both of which were signs of suffocation." JACK THE RIPPER A-Z Pages3 348-349 (revised edition)
I can't see a garroting taking place unless the scarf was used to throttle Chapman. However, I do believe that Chapman as well as certain other of trhe victims were at least partially suffocated before death.
It is also worth noting that Nichols, Chapman and Kelly had their throats cut down to the bone. Stride did not and I believe it is important to point out that the knife used on Stride was shorter, blunter and rounded. The knife used to kill Eddowes was long, very sharp and pointed. A good deal of things can be explained away by the fact that the killer MAY have been interrupted during the Stride murder. However, the knives supposedly used on Stride and Eddowes on the very same night within an hour of each other were very different instruments.
Sugden, it is worth noting, indicates that some of the details of the various injuries of the victims have been taken from newspaper reports. Therefore they are not as conclusive as we would like to be presented with.
Best Regard
Gary |
Jon Smyth
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 69
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 9:15 pm: | |
Hi Gary.
This suggestion of a garrot is only that, a suggestion. I am intrigued by the fact that the medical evidence does not eliminate or exclude such a means of suffocation. Beyond that it is no more than my speculation based on opinions expressed by the doctors involved in the Mylett case.
next point....
I have just commented on this very point on another thread to Glenn. You say...
"......and I believe it is important to point out that the knife used on Stride was shorter, blunter and rounded."
There is no description of the weapon used on Stride. The wound was a slice, in no way can you describe the blade that produces a slice, neither by length, width nor shape (re: pointed or not).
Regards, Jon
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Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 183
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 10:03 pm: | |
Hi Jon
All the doctors could do was make certain surmises about the knife from the nature of the wounds. I agree that nothing definitive can come from this method of analysis. We are left with conjecture. However, this conjecture was based on the circumstances presented to the experts at the time. Some people put a good deal of faith in these doctors, others question their competancy. I would say I fall somewhere in between these two positions.
Best
Gary |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 184
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 10:11 pm: | |
P.S. you mention making a similar point on another thread. I believe there are three or four threads going which involve speculation on the number of killers. Perhaps these threads should be combined. |
Jon Smyth
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jon
Post Number: 70
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 04, 2003 - 11:06 pm: | |
Hi Gary.
"All the doctors could do was make certain surmises about the knife from the nature of the wounds."
Absolutely, and thats all they were, but I think some researchers misinterpret what they read.
"Some people put a good deal of faith in these doctors, others question their competancy."
Agreed, and I am one who holds all medical opinions as a priority and specifically the opinions of Dr Phillips, who was thee most knowledgeable man on the Rippers 'work'.
I have no problem with what doctors said, it is more with what readers 'think' they said.
There are so many news reports to go through and all of them appear to have been edited to a greater or lesser degree. So, just to pick out one concerning this subject of the weapon used on Stride, I quote from the Daily Telegraph.
If you remember the knife that was found opposite No 253 Whitechapel Road, by Thomas Coram?
Dr Phillips recalls the knife.....
"The knife produced on the last occasion was delivered to me, properly secured, by a constable, and on examination I found it to be such a knife as is used in a chandler's shop, and is called a slicing knife. It has blood upon it, which has characteristics similar to the blood of a human being. It has been recently blunted, and its edge apparently turned by rubbing on a stone such as a kerbstone. It evidently was before a very sharp knife.
The Coroner: Is it such as knife as could have caused the injuries which were inflicted upon the deceased? - Such a knife could have produced the incision and injuries to the neck, but it is not such a weapon as I should have fixed upon as having caused the injuries in this case; and if my opinion as regards the position of the body is correct, the knife in question would become an improbable instrument as having caused the incision."
Quite a lengthy discussion on the subject of this weapon, and Dr Phillips remarks as to its suitability regarding the blade, however the size of the weapon makes it very unsuitable, (plus this specimen was blunt?) in his opinion.
Only a few questions later, in responding to a question by the Forman, Dr Phillips had this to say.....
"...The wound was inflicted by drawing the knife across the throat. A short knife, such as a shoemaker's well-ground knife, would do the same thing."
Same thing?
Same as what?, he is referring to his previous comments about the large knife found on the step.
Dr Phillips is stating that either blade, long or short, could have caused that wound.
Unfortunately, some have picked up on that 'short blade' comment and understood him to be describing the weapon used.
So long as you read the whole extract you do not take the comment out of context.
He made two separate comments about a suitable blade, one was long the other short.
Dr Phillips did not describe the weapon used, just that either were possible.
This same mistake is seen in The News from Whitechapel, pg 138
Re: Stride murder.....
"-a different type of knife was used - short bladed versus long bladed".
Incorrect.
Regards, Jon
|
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1536
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 1:30 pm: | |
Hi everyone,
I got to thinking when will everyone be totally out of it, new years eve oh well i have a complex question to ask anyway!
and so
thinking about it there must be more than one murderer, not necessarily 5+ murderers is not what i mean. but there was Jack (whoever he killed) then there was say Emma Smiths killer etc torso murder, and all unsolved.
So more than one killer isnt it technically the correct answer?
Jenni
"I wanna really really really wanna zigazig ah"
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2604
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 1:41 pm: | |
Yes, it is, Jenni.
(I am still here...)
And since there was at least more than one besides the Ripper, there could be others. And then we probably have one or more copy-cat killers as well (influenced by the Ripper or not) after the Kelly murder.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971 |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 1539
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 2:22 pm: | |
Glenn!!
Hi there,
there is potentially one per victim? but i think thats slightly over doing it. I don't subscribe quite to that school of thought (perhaps a little!) but it is an interesting one.
anyway, yes it depends who it is you are copying i guess!!
Jenni
"I wanna really really really wanna zigazig ah"
|
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2605
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 3:02 pm: | |
Jenni!!!!!!
No, I didn't mean that there were potentially one per victim, at least not one per the canonical ones...Some of them could have killed more than one victim, though.
Let's say that I believe there were at least two or three killers in East End besides the Ripper, depending on which victims we're considering, including Tabram, Millwood, Coles and McKenzie.
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971 |
Alan Sharp
Chief Inspector
Username: Ash
Post Number: 694
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 3:11 pm: | |
Hi Jenni
I'm still here as well, for the moment, although heading to the Edinburgh Street Party (which is just round the corner from my flat) in about half an hour!
Anyhoo, Peter Turnbull put forward the idea of five seperate killers in his book "The Killer Who Never Was". You can also read a distillation of this in the Mammoth Book. Unfortunately Turnbull seems to have been a rotten researcher and gets huge numbers of his facts wrong, but the theory is there just the same.
However, I agree with what you are saying, and in fact not only more than one killer but assuming that the four torsos found, all but one in or near rivers, over a three year period were by the same hand, more than one Serial Killer.
Also I tend to think of Alice McKenzie as a copycat killer who didn't have the stomach to go through with more than a cursory amount of mutilation when it came to the crunch.
"Everyone else my age is an adult, whereas I am merely in disguise." |
Glenn L Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 2606
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 3:18 pm: | |
Hi Alan,
I agree with what you're saying.
A Happy New Year to you
(no partying for me this year, I'll stay in with a book, some food and some decent wine, but I'll look forward to it)
All the best
G, Sweden
"Well, do you... punk?"
Dirty Harry, 1971 |
|
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