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John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 57
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 31, 2003 - 6:42 pm: | 
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For some reason this thread has been inserted yet no initiater has written an opening question...
How extraordinary!
Well here goes..As we all know Lewis Carroll, the creator of "Alice In Wonderland" ,was CHARLES LUTWIDGE DODGSON in real life (1832-1898).
To show what a marvellously confusing thing coincidence is, two Honours Graduates from New College Oxford around the time MONTAGUE JOHN DRUITT graduated with Honours,were..EDWARD S. DODGSON (graduated 3Classical Moderns,1877) and
FREDERICK V. DODGSON (graduated 3 Classical Moderns, 1879).
MONTAGUE DRUITT graduated with 2 CL. Mod,1878, and 3Cl Mod.1880.
Given the strong use of Alphabetical Order, I wonder if the Dodgey Brothers stood almost next to Jack The Ripper at Oxford????
But No!
As their illustrious relative would have said:
" No! No! Sentence first - verdict afterwards." |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 205
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 5:31 am: |
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Hi John
Re alphabetical order : you've come within a whisker of naming my preferred suspect.
It's the Dormouse.
Robert |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 56
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 12:54 pm: |
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Hi all,
Gee, I thought for sure it was the Mad Hatter!
Jeff |
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 59
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 7:15 pm: |
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And just what was the Queen of Hearts fond of demanding?.... |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 60
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 01, 2003 - 11:17 pm: |
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Yes, but it wasn't human kidneys!
Actually, the Knave of Hearts did steal the tarts,
and took them clean away!
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 208
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 7:39 am: |
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Hi John and Jeff
This admittedly unorthodox thread has opened up new avenues for the serious researcher!
While I agree that things look black for the Knave of Hearts, I believe he can be exonerated as far as the Kelly murder is concerned. Remember, the Queen of Hearts, she made some tarts, all on a SUMMER day. Kelly was killed in November.
If the Kelly murder was indeed a copycat killing, should Chris Scott have a look at the census returns for the county of Cheshire?
Unfortunately we don't know whether the inventory of the contents of Kelly's room included a disembodied smile.
Robert |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 75
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 6:15 pm: |
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Actually, one day my late mother called my ex-wife the Queen of Tarts whilst we were still married. That set up an interesting evening  .
Cheers, Mark |
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 60
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 8:48 pm: |
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Actually, I was not as sharp as Jeffrey Bloomfield, I was not thinking of "tarts", which is far more appropriate, but :
"OFF WITH HIS HEAD!".
But I like the tangled skein of improbability.
Why it sounds like some of the other threads..
Liked your story about your Mother In Law, Mark,
and particularly the graphic. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 62
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 02, 2003 - 11:11 pm: |
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Hi all,
I may add, on a more serious note, Carroll was
suspected of an interest in current legal matters
and trials. When he wrote THE HUNTING OF THE SNARK, there were some who suspected he was lampooning the current Tichborne Claimant Trial
(1871 - 1873), in particular with the figure of
the barrister. Henry Holliday, who did the original illustrations for "SNARK" (as Tenniel did
for the "Alice" books, made the barrister look like Arthur Orton's lawyer, Edward Vaughan Keneally. [Tenniel also added little bits to his
illustrations. When Alice is in a train carriage
there is a gentleman wearing a paper hat opposite
her. The illustration shows he is Prime Minister
Disraeli.]
Maybe 'twas brillig and the Jabberwocky did it...ef we don't watch out! [Apologies to James
Witcomb Riley.] 
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 213
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 03, 2003 - 7:50 am: |
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Hi all
I suppose the Juwes graffito does sound a bit as if it belonged in some damnably complicated syllogism. But.....I mean.....surely not?.....
Robert |
John Ruffels
Detective Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 63
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 4:12 am: |
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Good point Robert, maybe Lewis Carroll is not a suspect for the murders -just asuspect for writing the sceenplay which unfolded as the seemingly, most incompetant set of murder investigations ever.
And maybe he wrote some of the letters too.But definitely NOT the poetry. |
Robert Charles Linford
Inspector
Username: Robert
Post Number: 231
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 05, 2003 - 7:49 pm: |
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Hi John
He'd have had to kill on what was technically a Sunday, too.
By the way, John, regarding celebrity fit-ups, do you know if Friedrich Nietzsche has been framed yet? He didn't like women, and he lost his mind in January 1889. He could easily have hopped on a boat.....
AND he had a moustache!
Robert |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Sergeant
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 41
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 06, 2003 - 6:46 am: |
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just wanted to say, glad alice made it onto the big read (sorry if you aren't from uk and don't know what i am on about!)
i guess that lewis carrol gets put on the list because he is famous. however, i guess that doesn't in itself make him any less likely to be JTR than th others. why then does it make me feel so nervous about accepting this as a serious theory?
i don't know. where does this theory originate and what are the main poiunts of suspision, indeed are there any
jp |
Gary Alan Weatherhead
Inspector
Username: Garyw
Post Number: 333
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 27, 2003 - 7:39 am: |
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Hi Jennifer
If you read the Carroll book as part of the big read I would be curious to know what you thought of it.
You mentioned your dificulty in accepting Lewis Carroll's candidacy as JTR before you read the book. I was more confused about why his candidacy was put forward AFTER reading the book.
All The Best
Gary |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 133
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 27, 2003 - 2:34 pm: |
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sorry gary,
i don't remember making that post back in june.
i think you misunderstand me however as i had already read the caroll book before the big read and have never thought he was more likely to be the ripper after reading. i was merely leading into why i had thought about it at all!
alls i was trying (and failing) to get at was that lewis carol's name was probably on the list (of ripper suspects) because he was/is famous where as ordinary people are not. having said that i think i was merely speculating that being famous in itself does not exclude candiancy (even if this is the reason for it). but saying that i was/am still uneasy about accepting him as a genuwin candidate.
then i was merely asking about the origins of the theory and the points of suspision. as alice is not in the top 21 your answer won't prejudice me in any way (higher than a few better than it though if i recall!!!!)
when i say read the carroll book i have ticked this one off as one of the few along with LOTR,winnie the pooh and four or five others on the list i hjad already read. what i can remember is a v. curious book! really the book had nout to do withit!
sorry!!!
ps i've got about 25 more to get through so you'll have to excuse me!!!
jennifer
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Alan Sharp
Detective Sergeant
Username: Ash
Post Number: 137
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 27, 2003 - 2:45 pm: |
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Jennifer, you're reading all of them? Fair play to you! I've probably read about half of them over the years but frankly a million euro wouldn't entice me to sit and read all the way through Lord of the Rings or Gone With The Wind. (well, actually it would, but it's about the only thing that would).
Anyway, the whole exercise is academic because obviously the answer is Great Expectations and if the British public decided otherwise then, well, the British public is just plain wrong!
(Although I have a horrible suspicion that it is going to turn out that the greatest novel ever written is Harry Potter! The public should never be allowed to vote on anything. Ever.) |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 1114
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 27, 2003 - 5:13 pm: |
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Hi Jennifer
I'm not really interested in this "big read" business, but if it's supposed to be a list of the best novels, then is "Wuthering Heights" on the list? One of my favourites.
Robert |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Detective Sergeant
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 134
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 2:25 pm: |
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yes wuthering hieghts is on the list but really my popint was about clarfying something i said earlier about mr carroll.
and robert you needent worry i don't think my library is interested either!
jennifer
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Antigone Wright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 8:13 pm: |
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I posted you a message, which in my humble opinion was helpful, explaining why (probably) Lewis Carroll is on the list--and something related to the Snark--, earlier this evening but I don't see it displayed.
How come?
Antigone |
Antigone Wright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 28, 2003 - 9:56 pm: |
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Hi Gang!
Lewis Carroll was put on the list probably because in the mid- to late 1990s an American CHILD-psychiatrist (yipes!) published a book accusing him. The doctor 'discovered' buried or rather encoded throughout Carroll's writings (not just the Alice books), all kinds of secret dirty words and phrases and threats some of which, if I recall correctly, the doctor had to extract backwards, which if one accepts the doctor's reasoning that far, certainly would seem to indicate a disturbed mind. The reader may indeed wonder who has the disturbed mind. The doctor believes Lewis Carroll was deeply disturbed from childhood (beyond what made him as an adult evidently so interested in little girls) and that he could barely contain a very angry hidden self and so encoded these alleged cryptic messages until, perhaps, he erupted in homocidal mania in what must have been by then, surely, somewhat creaky old age.
The American magazine, People, did a write-up on the doctor's theory sometime in the late 1990s--but not in any way debunking it. (...)
Incidentally, Dante Gabriel Rossetti seriously believed that HE was the target of the Snark, and was quite put out with LC over it, for the rest of DGR's life.
Antigone |
Antigone Wright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 06, 2003 - 9:13 pm: |
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Dear Gang,
A brief follow-up: Harper's magazine did an article on the Doctor (circa 1997? late 90s anyway), whose surname was Wallace. I think he was Richard Wallace. His book was entitled something like The Tortured Life of Lewis Carroll. Sorry so vague for now; doing this on the run. Will follow up soon with citation(s).
Antigone |
antigone wright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 7:05 pm: |
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As promised:
About the American paediatric psychiatrist and his suspicion of Lewis Carroll, again (which I'm not endorsing, just mentioning):
See, e.g., Richard Wallace's book, The Agony of Lewis Carroll.
See, e.g., Richard Wallace's article, Malice in Wonderland, in Harper's Magazine, Nov 1996, p87.
As already mentioned, in the late 1990s there was also a brief write-up about him and his theory in People magazine.
Antigone |
Christopher T George
Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 430
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 2:55 pm: |
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Hi, Antigone:
More pertinent even than the Harper's article and Wallace's book, The Agony of Lewis Carroll is probably the book, Jack the Ripper: Light-Hearted Friend, where Wallace contrives to find anagram confessions to the crimes in Carroll's later writings.
Best regards
Chris |
M.Mc.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 8:13 pm: |
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I think Lewis Carroll is at the bottom of the list for being Jack the Ripper. LOL! If you put Lewis Carroll in the roll of Jack the Ripper. I do believe the letters (if any are real) would have been writen better. I'd suspect the Queen of England herself before him. "We are not amused." Would "The Mad Hatter" be Jack the Ripper? LOL!
MAD HATTER: Care for a spot of blood? Eh, I mean tea? |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Inspector
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 191
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, February 01, 2004 - 3:06 pm: |
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Whatho all,
Have you notice, in this illustration Alice looks rather evil? But as far as Lewis Carroll is concerned, he had noewt to go with the murders.
Cheers, Mark (Earl Grey please) |
M.Mc.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 10, 2004 - 6:57 pm: |
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I have some jasmine tea. Heh, heh! Anyway yes I did notice Alice looks evil in this image. It's sort of Alice in Wonderland meets the Addams Family type thing I'd say. I love the real Alice in Wonderland story. Alas it has been cut more than Jack the Ripper's victims down through the years. I like this one too by Lewis Carroll.
"Is all our Life, then but a dream
Seen faintly in the goldern gleam
Athwart Time's dark resistless stream?
Bowed to the earth with bitter woe
Or laughing at some raree-show
We flutter idly to and fro.
Man's little Day in haste we spend,
And, from its merry noontide, send
No glance to meet the silent end. " |
Jerry Maynard
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, March 14, 2004 - 8:13 pm: |
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I saw an ebay auction on the Richard Wallace book.
The description says that someone recently bought the movie rights to the book. Anyone knows if there is any truth to it. Thanks |
Fede
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, July 01, 2005 - 6:36 pm: |
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I think that LC had a disturbed mind, at least very far from normality, and this is probably what made him a brilliant and so peculiar novelist. But to see him as a real suspect is very hard for me... About his works, I think you can read anything and find a lot of things that match with what you want, but this is not a proof.
P.S.
And what about the possibility that the real JTR is not in the list? |
Catherine Ann
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 6:39 pm: |
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I second that! Everything is just pure speculation and the "true" ripper wasn't even on the list of suspects.  |
WiTaimre
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, January 05, 2006 - 10:02 pm: |
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Hi Catherine Ann, I assume, You are right. People play with a possibility who SHOULD have been this "Ripper" very early, and cynically, and when they were high enough to think upon a Prince or ehe Queen herself in the bachground, it doesn't seem mor crazy to mention Carroll.
Another point - wasn't it Sir Conan Doyle who mentioned him first? I assume that's a "black joke" from him... - And nobody suspected Sherlock Holmes to have done "it"?
Doyle lived also at "that" time and wrote "The Sign of Four" in 1890 - I just read it again for this reason. He tells from London in this krimi, they even cross Whitechapel - short - and what he tells with the famous blood-hound Toby seems to be exactly the story what happened with Sir Charles Warren when testing the dogs by himself.
Now, if in this point his Sherlock is Sir Warren, maybe Doyle imagines him sometimes more, while producing "Rhe Sign of Four" and he thinks about, whether he, Doyle - should try to write a krimi about the "Whitechapel murderer" by his own ideas.
He mentiones a woman "cut in ribbons" - far away in India, where the ex-convict tells the story about his finding the treasure. e tells a lot about this Andaman aboriginal, coming from a savage region but stays with the convict to help and defend him, and here he mentions that this little killer killed eben when he shouldn't, in hope, that his boss will be content about this "help" -
The "Whitechapel murderer" used another special way to silent his victims at once, I assume in the way the military-guerilla learnt to do so in time of dangers. Doyle doesn't mention this, only faint: where he tells about those Sikh-soldier with a knife killing Ahmet the merchant. But this is a mere giant of a man.
I assume, Doyle couldn't decide but is combining an idea of colonial people, with a British one bringing them with to perform an old revenge. His reason to take revenge was beginning in 1878 back.
The "canonical 5" were elderly wifes: around 40 years old, in the collection Your website gives (of killed women in this period) there are several widows.
One parallel idea would be to look 10 years back and to assume a collection of men who "took the Queens shilling" and coming back order to take sme revenge
- Doyles convict tells, his reason to go to the Indian Army was a wife he perhaps raped without thinking that this were a rape - but because of the reaction of this woman and all those orderly people around he had to leave his land - none of the "canonical 5-6 women" has been touched in a similarity to rape, that seems to have been a fact for the police and may be only Sir Charles Warren knew so many facts, that he decided when the seria was over: since the time he left his position in the Met police.
He is the meant victim, may be. Some years later coming back in the Thames district - no problem.
He knew, that the revenge for something he had done in his carriere had made a special group or person so angry, to kill others instead of him - but then this had been done and only the others as McNaughton, Anderson or so were not so sure about that. They are looking out for "the typical suspects".
Sir Conan Doyle was surely very interested in this seria of murders. I assume, his joke to mention the creator of "Alice" would be absurd enough that nobody believes it. It is satirically told.
My question:
does anybody know, whether Sir Charles Warren and Sir Conan Doyle met another in that time?
mfG WiT |
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