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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 19
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 12, 2003 - 10:43 pm: | 
|
This is currently a side issue on the mysteries
of Monty Druitt, his identification with Jack
the Ripper, his professional switch from a legal
career to a schoolmaster's career, his "sexual
insanity", his fall from his position in the
school at Blackheath, and his "suicide".
I noted the name of Richard Bethel in a posted
message by John Ruffels on Friday, 7 Friday 2003,
in which possible friends of Monty's from Winchester, New College, Oxford, and Inner Temple
who were into cricket.
The first mentioned was Richard Bethel, who started at Winchester in the "Short Half term
of 1870, played in Winchester X1 (1876) and was
on the honours list at New College, Oxford in
1877 - 1880).
I had suggested that there might be a mispelling
of the last name, and that it was Richard BetheLL
(with two ells), and that this could have been
the grandson of the first Lord Westbury, Richard
Bethell (1800 - 1873). Lord Chancellor from
1861 - 1865. A man of some distinction as a lawyer, he was best recalled for his sarcastic
speeches (some quotes are found in Bartlett's
Quotations), his joustings with Bishop Samuel
Wilberforce in debate and court, and his possible
misuse of his office to give financial aid in the
form of jobs to friends and supporters of his.
He resigned, in fact, as a result of such an
incident in July 1865.
In doing research today, I did find that the first
Lord Westbury had a grandson and namesake named
Richard, born in 1852. That would put him into
Monty's age group if he is the cricketeer with
a single "ell" at the end of his name. This
Richard Bethell is noted for the way he died.
As the third Lord Westbury, he threw himself out of a seventh story window near Buckingham Palace
on February 21, 1930. He had been recuperating
from an operation, but he was depressed by the
sudden, unexplained death of his son (again named
Richard)who had died in November 1929. This young
man had been personal secretary to the archeologist Howard Carter, and his sudden death,
and the suicide of Lord Westbury, were added by
the press to the death toll (starting with
Lord Carnaevon) that was attributed to the curse
of King Tutankhamon on those who opened his tomb.
It is surprising that even the New York Times
fell for this (see it's two column account of the
death of Lord Westbury on page 5 of the issue of
February 22, 1930, and the follow up account of
two other subsequent deaths (one of a child run
over by the hearse with Lord Westbury's body
in it) on page 27, of the issue of February 26,
1930. Well, I suppose it was talking about
hideous, doomlike curses from the past or trying
to explain the problems of the depression that
was going on.
The Times of London seems to have had more information about Lord Westbury, but I did not
have a chance to look into it this afternoon.
Hopefully I will in another week or so.
Jeff |
John Ruffels
Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 13
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 6:16 am: |
|
Jeff,
I have only today discovered your posting concerning Richard Bethel(l).
Congratulations on your research.How interesting the links to Lords Westbury and Carnaervon.
I think Bethell features in one of the cricketing photos shown in Irving Rosenwater's
CRICKETER article of January, 1973.
I am particularly pleased that someone in England(?)-I presume- has taken up the challenge of trying to discover Montague Druitt's "friends".
After all, Sir Melville Macnaghten alleges it was they, not Druitt's relatives (who only harboured suspicions),who contacted police about the Druitt's odd behaviour.
I am at some disadvantage being in the
Antipodes when it comes to ,for instance, Colindale newspaper library.Keep going Jeff! |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 21
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 10:10 pm: |
|
Hi John,
I best explain one point first. I am closer
to Colindale than you - but barely. I am in
New York City, not England. I was doing my
research at the 42nd Street Library. I only
wish I was in England, with a rapid access to
Colindale.
I don't know how soon I will be able to get back
to the Library to double check further on identifying Richard Bethell, Lord Westbury (1852 -
1930) with Richard Bethel, cricketeer at Winchester and New College, Oxford. The holidays
are interfering, and the following weekend may be
a busy one (I volunteered for a book sale).
I also admit that I don't have an edge on the
other cricketeers yet, but we shall see.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
John Ruffels
Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 16
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 15, 2003 - 7:13 am: |
|
Jeff,
Thank you for that, and mutual commiserations on your own exile from Colindale.
Would that all their newspapers (and yours) were
scanned and checkable using the "find" function on our PC menus!
I did most of my research in 1976, with a (Howells & Skinner)resurgence in 1986.
If I get the chance I'll scan (physically) my files and see if I have anything more on Bethal/Westbury. |
John Ruffels
Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 22
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 8:21 pm: |
|
Jeff,
I have had a quick look at my "friends" of Montague Druitt researches and find that, in actual fact, one was not a "Richard Bethel" but a cricketing contemporary of Druitt's at Winchester: RICHARD A.BETHEL PRICHARD.
So it appears, Prichard might have been given his mother's surname, as part of his name, to perpetuate the link with the illustrious Westbury clan.Regards.
If I did ,in fact, write "Richard Bethel" then it is my mistake.Sorry. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 23
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 2:08 am: |
|
Hi John,
Too bad about Bethel Prichard. Now we'll have to
return to square one - can we find anything about
this new figure.
Best wishes,
Jeff
|
Curtis
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 10:37 pm: |
|
In Donald Rumbelow's novel, "The Complete Jack the Ripper", he puts a story in of 2 police guys on the case staking out at night on one of the murders. While their staking out, a young man with such a similar physical description to Druitt it's scary passes by one of them. The police guy would stop him, but their was no reason to at the time. So he let the guy go and then the other policeman calls him over and they discover one of the victims. The policeman chases the guy, but can't find him. He also noted the Druitt looking guy had soft sounding shoes on.
I was just wandering if anybody heard about this story and also why this story has not been talked about more.
|
John Ruffels
Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 28
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 5:51 pm: |
|
Gooday Curtis,
If you go back to "Message Boards" and type in the name "Steve White" you'll see a pretty lively discussion of just the man you're talking about..
Good Luck. |
John Ruffels
Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 29
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 28, 2003 - 7:27 pm: |
|
Sorry to monopolise this "thread-board" but, Jeffrey, I have located my notes on RICHARD PRICHARD.
I think the source (which I have not noted!)might be a WHO WAS WHO after 1907:-
" PRICHARD,RICHARD BETHELL ALLAN, b.3 May, 1857.Son of Rev. Richard Prichard, B.D..R. of Newbold-on-Stour, and Elizabeth, his first wife, d. of George Pinchin, Esq., of Bath.
Sch. New College,Oxon.,1876-9, 3Cl. Mod.,1879; Stud. Inner Temple, 1880; Secretary & Manager, Warwick Race Syndicate; owner & runner of steeple-chasers & other horses.D. at Leamington, 8 March, 1907."
If the source is not WHO WAS WHO, it might be "ALLUMNI OXENSIS". |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 34
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 30, 2003 - 10:11 pm: |
|
Hi John,
Thanks for the background on Richard Bethel
Prichard. He is of a little interest to me now,
in that he seems to have been involved in horse
racing circles. First time that part of society
has popped up in any investigation of the Whitechapel Murders.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
John V. Omlor
Detective Sergeant
Username: Omlor
Post Number: 57
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 8:09 am: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Well, sort of. There's always the Grand National crowd that included Florie and Jim. 
All the best,
--John |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 35
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 01, 2003 - 10:20 pm: |
|
Hi John,
And don't forget the comment of James Kenneth
Stephen's father Sir James Fitzjames Stephen
at Flo's trial - "The next date after that took
place is the Grand National something. I don't know whether it is a race, or a steeplechase, or
what it is -- but it is something called the
Grand National, as if everybody knew what the
substantive was -- but the Grand National took place on the 29th March." Supposedly the court
began to wonder about Justice's mental state
after hearing that statement.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
John Ruffels
Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 34
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 8:41 am: |
|
Hello Jeff,
Are you still interested in following up friends
of Montague Druitt?
Well,by friends I mean contemporary teachers, cricketers, lawyers and occupants of 9 Kings Bench Walk? Even friends of his family...
I know I put some of my candidates on the old message boards.If you are interested perhaps yourself and others would like to join in listing
possible 'pals' of MJD?? |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 37
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 07, 2003 - 10:52 pm: |
|
Hi John,
I have a curiosity about Monty. I can't say I
think he is the Ripper, or is the best candidate,
but I have a sense of pity for him - regarding his
sudden fall and probable suicide. So I consider
him a secondary mystery. He may not lead to
Miller's Court, but he may be the second most
interesting subject in the whole mystery.
Therefore I am curious about the connections
behind Druitt and his family and his careers.
I don't have anything regarding this information
that I can share - but I keep my eyes open for
anything. So if you have any information I might
comment on it.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
John Ruffels
Sergeant
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 36
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 8:49 pm: |
|
Hello Jeffrey,
Thanks for that offer.I am sure lots of people will be looking over our shoulders!
One aspect of Montague Druitt's family I'm curious about is Monty's relationship with his father, WILLIAM DRUITT.
Whilst William's brothers Robert and Thomas and James all left Wimborne and succeeded in their careers as: a prominent surgeon and medical writer (Robert); a prominent Archdeacon in colonial New South Wales(Thomas); and scion of a dynasty with a successful legal practice and local influence in masonic lodge and local government circles, (James); William seemed
to stay put in Wimborne. Admittedly he was a big fish in his small puddle. On the board of the local grammar school,trustee of the local minster,
a (non-practising?) surgeon or just a general practitioner(?). His children all left Wimborne and, after William's death, even his widow left Wimborne.
Of course, there is the fact several of William's family committed suicide. William's wife, Anne, eldest daughter, Georgina (late in life), and , Montague.
Monty's cousin, Lionel, suffered from diabetes.As did Monty's brother Edward's children. So it looks as if the strain travelled down the Druitt line.I think sleeplessness and depression were the side-effects of untreatable diabetes.
Did William suffer from it too?
Admittedly, William paid for Montague to attend Winchester school. And he would have met other expenses for all his sons' educations. But no-one seems to have researched William's life: his thoughts, his health, his belief systems, his passions.
I wonder what they were? |
Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 137
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 6:50 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff
I just found one of those weird coincidences which litter this case!
I was asked to do some searches re. Mary Kelly under the names of Mary Kelly and Lizzie Fisher. Knowing the Kelly story as we have received it is full of half truths at best, I tried, on a whim, searching for a Mary Fisher, born in Ireland, somewhere around 1863.
There was only one - a children's nurse (echoes of the Cleveland Street Sickert story!) and she was employed by Sir Gustavus Hume (great name!) at 115 St George's Square, London. The weird coincidence is that listed in the household staff is a footman called Richard Bethell! Hardly a common name... He was born in 1864 in Bath.
Small world, eh???
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 39
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 1:43 am: |
|
Hi Chris,
Small world indeed! The issue to be clear about
is who Sir Gustavus Hume was...a physician
perhaps, or someone connected to the Royal Family
(if we want to play with the Sickert - "Gull" -
Eddy theory).
Great research on this and other threads Chris.
Jeff |
Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 145
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 9:53 am: |
|
Hi Jeff
Sir Gustavus Hume in the 1881 Census has the following details:
Born 1826 in Louth, Ireland
Lieutenant Colonel, Retired
Married to Ellen C. Hume, born in Dublin
Thanks for the comments about what I have posted recently
Chris S
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 40
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 2:49 pm: |
|
Hi Chris,
Well, although Mary Fisher may have been hired
in London, it is just as possible that Sir
Gustavus may have brought her to London when he
set up there from Dublin.
Sir Gustavus has a military background. But no
initials following his name.
Try Boase's Modern English Biography, a series of
miniature biographies of people who somehow got
their names in the newspapers in the 19th Century.
Unlike the old D.N.B., which was very finicky about what criminals it had to include, Boase
puts in murderers, poisoners, swindlers whenever
he can. It's a great read, and it does include
military people (moreover it also gives newspaper
and book citations for the researcher to look into). Possibly Sir Gustavus is listed there.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 147
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 3:55 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff
Ive found out Hume married in 1857 and died in 1891
have a look at
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~humefamily/27486.htm
for his family tree
Chris S |
Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 148
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 3:57 pm: |
|
Also found this interesting little snippet:
There were four Hume brothers, all British army officers: J.R. Hume, Sir Robert Hume, Sir Gustavus Hume, and Capt. Walter Hume, whom Queen Victoria called "The Four Valiant Brothers." |
John Savage
Sergeant
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 31
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 11:15 am: |
|
Hi Chris Scott,
I found this entry for Sir Gustavus Hume in Brithish Biographical Index. Hope it is of interest. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 44
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 9:43 pm: |
|
Hi John,
Thanks for showing that biographical account.
Notice - it is from Boase's Modern English
Biography that I mentioned before.
Thanks again,
Jeff |
Chris Scott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Chris
Post Number: 149
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 8:24 am: |
|
Hi Jeff
Just another little find I have come across - the problem I had with the Gustavus Hume set up witht "Mary Fisher" was that I have never seen any mention of Kelly being in service in London. The normal account, as in the A-Z, was that she same to London and spent some time in a high class brothel in the West End.
However, I am currently researching Australian and New Zealand press accounts of the murders. IN a New Zealand paper (the Hawkes Bay Herald of 16 November 1888) I came across the following comment about Kelly:
Hawkes Bay Herald 16 November 1888
The last victim of the Whitechapel murders was a respectably connected woman, who had been in a gentleman's service in the West End for some time. She descended lower and lower in the social scale until she became an outcast, and drifted into the slums of the East End.
I have no idea what the origin of this story is but would love to find out
Regards
Chris S
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 48
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 14, 2003 - 9:43 pm: |
|
Hi Chris,
Actually, I was aware that Mary Kelly was supposed
to have worked in an West End household as a maid,
not that she was actually employed in any brothel.
The item from the Hawkes Bay Herald seems to
confirm this.
Question becomes how did she drift downward? Did
she get fired from her position due to some
behavior that was promiscous? Is it possible that
she was involved with her employer in a sexual
relationship, but had to leave when her employer's
wife found out (which would also cost her her
character reference)? These circumstances would
have led Mary to the streets and her doom.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 626
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 11:31 am: |
|
Hi all
have found another interesting corespondence on the cricketing theme. One of the regular players for the Blackheath team (listed as paying at the same time with Druitt) is C.L.Hemmerde.
I was following up some of the team members who would have known Druitt and Hemmerde (we like unusual surnames!!!) was one of them.
Interestingly there was a family of Hemmerdes living in Blackheath at the time of the 1881 census.
Head:
James Godfred (sic) Hemmerde
Aged 47 born Camberwell
Bank manager
Wife:
Frances aged 32 born Southurst
Children:
Arthur James aged 20 born Peckham
Stockbroker's clerk
Alice Roere ahed 18 born Peckham
Edward George aged 8 born Peckham
Eliza Pauline aged 7 born Eltham
Other:
Eliza Hemmerde Eliot (Cousin)
Aged 39 born Camberwell
Jane Susannah Tyler (Cousin)
Most interesting is the address - 10 Eliot Place, next door to George Valentine's school.
The Edward George Hemmerde mentioned above went on to do very well for himself:
"Born: London. Educated Winchester. University College Oxford. A great sportsman in his youth. MP for East Denbighshire 1906. Became Recorder of Liverpool."
Below is a cartoon of E G Hemmerde from Vanity Fair:
The C L Hemmerde listed as playing for Blackheath and Druitt's fellow bowler is listed in 1881 as a student at Winchester College, Druitt's old school. The brief biog of Edward H above also states that he went there.
The details from 1881 for Charles Hemmerde are:
Charles Hemmerde
Born 1868 in Peckham
Scholar at Winchester College, Hampshire.
He is therefore a lot younger than I imagined. he is listed as playing for the Blackheath Cricket Club in the same team as Druitt on April 26 1886 at which time he would have been about 18. He is still listed as playing for the club in 1894.
By the time of the 1891 census C L Hemmerde is listed as living at 6 Lansdowne Road, Blackheath in a household headed by his now widowed mother, Frances. His profession is given as Stockbroker's Clerk
We can only assume that both being Wykehamists (the name for old boys of Winchester College), fellow players on the Blackheath team and the family being his next door neighbours, that MJD and Charles Hemmerde were close friends.
Hope this is of interest
Chris |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 627
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 1:16 pm: |
|
The team listing for the game in which Druitt took part on 5 June 1886 included Lord Harris as the opening bat for the opposition team, the Band of Brothers. This Lord Harris was a formidable England player whose details briefly are:
Lord Harris
Full name: George Robert Canning Harris (Lord Harris)
Born: 3rd February 1851, St Anne's, Trinidad
Died: 24th March 1932, Belmont, Faversham, Kent, England
Batting: Right-hand batsman
Bowling: round arm Right-arm fast
Teams: England (Test: 1878/79-1884); Kent (Main FC: 1870-1911); Marylebone Cricket Club (Main FC: 1871-1895); Oxford University (Main FC: 1871-1874);
Full details of his playing career can be found at:
http://www.cricketarchive.co.uk/Archive/Players/0/30/30.html
Druitt bowled him for 14!
Chris
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Detective Sergeant
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 147
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 1:27 pm: |
|
Hi Chris,
I am glad that we now can link E.G.Hemmerde with
Druitt to some extent. A few months back I had
written on one of the Druitt threads (upon seeing the name of "Hemmerde") that the name was that of a highly regarded, but ultimately less than successful barrister from Liverpool. E.G. was the man who prosecuted (successfully, although the conviction was overturned) William Herbert
Wallace for the murder of his wife in Liverpool in 1931. E. G. had problems in his later career,
due to questions about his business practices.
But he was considered a very fine barrister, and
seen (for awhile, anyway) as a rival of F. E. Smith, the future Lord Chancellor, Lord Birkenhead. See THE KILLING OF JULIA WALLACE by
Jonathan Goodman for further details.
I watched a local cricket match in Flushing a month ago. It is slower than baseball, if that is possible. But when it moves, it does move quickly.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4116
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 5:02 am: |
|
For those interested in the cricket connection, another site is
http://usa.cricinfo.com/db/PLAYERS/ENG/D/DRUITT_MJ_01036146/
Robert |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1565
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 8:05 am: |
|
Rob,
It seems Monty was a better bowler than batsman.
Many thanks,
Monty....who is a wicketkeeper.
I'm funny how, I mean funny, like I'm a clown? I amuse you. I make you laugh? I'm here to f**kin' amuse you? Whattya you mean funny? Funny how? How am I funny?
|
David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 7:43 am: |
|
Hi Robert.
I notice that on the Cricket site you gave us, Monty's death is given as December 4th.1888.
It's always been a debate as to exactly when he died. Do you think that's just a rough estimate, based on what information we do have?? Most accounts I've read seem to plump for December 3rd. Not that it will make any difference regarding his connection to JTR, but I just wondered if they know more than we do.
Best Wishes Robert.
DAVID CARTWRIGHT. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4119
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 3:34 pm: |
|
Hi David
I've emailed the site to ask them why they chose 4th, and also about the recent studies which they refer to, which apparently suggest a death date of several days earlier.
Robert |
David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 12:53 pm: |
|
Hi Robert.
Taking another look at that Cricket site you gave us, I noticed that the Cricket scoreboard was there, for the 8th. September, the day of the Chapman murder.
Druitt was bowled out for just 2 runs. Good bowling?? Or something else on his mind.
Just a thought.
Best wishes Robert.
DAVID CARTWRIGHT |
David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, February 20, 2005 - 11:12 am: |
|
Hi Robert.
Now that's interesting. I can't wait to know the results of your enquiry. The second half return ticket from Hammersmith to Charing Cross, which was in his pocket when found, was dated the 1st.
Having chosen the 4th, I wonder if they've now plumped for the 1st. If they go for anything earlier than that, we'll have a fresh mystery.
Best wishes Robert.
DAVID CARTWRIGHT |
|
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