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AP Wolf
Detective Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 125
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 5:43 pm: |       |
Ah, Belladonna, my dear, a deadly plant I fear,
and Cornwell a dreary place at any time of year,
where pages flap idly in some ill wind,
and vanish politely in some rubbish bin.
Were quite an accomplished caper,
to put all them words on paper.
So much dredge and drudge
to be witness, jury and judge,
and then to go out with flounce
guilty as I announce.
To give Jack his rightful name,
whore's business is this publishing game.
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Robert Charles Linford
Sergeant
Username: Robert
Post Number: 43
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 7:02 pm: | |
Hi everyone
Marie, it wasn't so much a question of Barnett or McCarthy trying to delay the police's entry, was it? I thought the police didn't want to get in at first, because they were waiting for the bloodhounds.
But I do tend to view McCarthy as a shady character. How was he able to identify Kelly so confidently? Barnett went on her "ear and eyes" (surely he actually said "hair and eyes"). Unless there was something going on, McCarthy presumably only had the hair to go on (although Bruce Paley did report one of Kelly's friends as saying that this was almost waistlength)
In the Ultimate Sourcebook there's an article by an American journalist who claims to have seen the bloodstains on the partition still there the following year, which doesn't inspire trust in McCarthy's tender-heartedness. But I'm not sure how much we can trust the article.
Robert |
JPR
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 7:04 pm: | |
Wolf though they fight you nail and tooth
your verses tell the simple truth. |
Robert Charles Linford
Sergeant
Username: Robert
Post Number: 44
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 19, 2003 - 7:58 pm: | |
Hallo AP
I liked your poem! I too want to soar with the Muse:
Cornwell named that Sickert toff
And rang it from the steeples.
But artists cut their own ears off,
Not other people's.
well it's good enough for Tony Hancock's wall at East Cheam.
Robert
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Marie Finlay
Detective Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 103
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 6:38 am: | |
Hi all,
Leanne: yeah, I trudged all over London trying to find a copy of Paley's book- only to be told by the girl at Borders, that it was out of print.
I didn't know that you could get books second hand, at Amazon! I'll get onto that right away. Make my sister lend me her credit card.
Robert, you posted: "I thought the police didn't want to get in at first, because they were waiting for the bloodhounds"
Errm, yes. You're right. In my haste to distrust Barnett and McCarthy, I forgot that pertinent point. But still! I think Barnett could have remebered how to get in to his ex-residence, especially if he was looking through the window. I also think McCarthy lied about not having a key, but I just don't know why.
(I tried to come up with a witty verse, but shall have to just accept the fact that I'm utterly rubbish at it).
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AP Wolf
Detective Sergeant
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 126
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 20, 2003 - 1:04 pm: | |
Thank you JPR & Robert
for your kind words about me poesie.
The art of the poesie has long since been discarded as a tool for the written word but I find it just as sharp as Jack's knife.
Especially when one wants to dismember a fellow author who has patently sold her soul for the four pence she has earnt... and her admirers.
However be warned! The art of the poesie is a most infectious thing and will spread like an uncontrollable virus, without a firm hand on the rudder. |
JPR
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, April 21, 2003 - 9:09 am: | |
Hey things are looking up for your board. Chapman is about to overtake Sickert as the person of most interest. At least Chapman is a suspect you don't have to be hopelessly gullable or deluded to take seriously. |
Paul Gibson
Police Constable
Username: Rupertbear
Post Number: 8
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 - 6:00 am: | |
Ahh JPR - You bring us good news indeed...I had given up looking at the votes in disgust.
I really like the idea of Chapman as Jack The Ripper except for the reasons I have alluded to in earlier posts on this most excellent thread...
Namely, I'm worried about just how much English the guy could speak in 1888 (although he was obviously fluent enough to pass himself off as an American in later years...so he must have been a fairly gifted linguist). But for this, he would certainly fit my subjective mould of Jack being a bit of a raconteur (see above - not much support for this view from others but I'm sticking with it). Chapman was evidently a very charming man as evidenced by the way he could attract a new wife who worked in the same establishment where his existing wife lay dying from his poisons.
However, I know this is subjective, but I continue to believe that it would be very difficult for an Eastern European man of limited means to have been Jack The Ripper, when the victims would have been most wary of this type of person, especially if he spoke only limited English in a very clipped accent.
Having said that, it would be a lot more palatable to see Chapman on top of the perch rather than Sickert.
Marie, oh ye of kindred spirit, I would be very much grateful for your support for the above notions, because I fear that I won't get it from any other quarter!
Paul |
Marie Finlay
Detective Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 111
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 22, 2003 - 12:55 pm: | |
Hi all,
Paul, you have my full support in this debate!
Although Chapman is a FAR better suspect than Sickert, I still just can't see him being our Jack. Call it gut feeling, intuition, whatever.
Also, I'm fairly certain that the Ripper was fair skinned, with a fair moustache, as per Lawende's statement. I consider Lawende to be the most important witness in the case.
But Chapman's personality type fits in well with my ideas about the sort of man Jack was. I think he functioned well in society, and that he could appear to be quite personable. |
Opal Elaine Small (Moyer)
Police Constable
Username: Bonedigger
Post Number: 3
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 27, 2003 - 11:34 pm: | |
I still favor a conspiracy theory, which Cornwell completely dimisses in her book. I don't believe that Sickert was the Ripper, but I do believe that he may have had some knowledge about the crimes and who committed them. His name is mentioned in both the conspiracy and "lodger" theories, as well as having been named a suspect, himself. Assuming that Joseph Sickert's story is true, he may have written letters to help the conspiracy thrive. It seems peculiar that Joseph Sickert mentions Catherine Eddowes being a mistake. She did use the name Mary Kelly, the very night of her murder, when being released from the lockup where she was being held for drunkeness. Cornwell's book mentions this point and I think it's too much of a coincidence.
I think that Cornwell is an exellent writer, though I think she began this book with biased preconceptions that Walter Sickert was JtR. The book is an excellent read, but I disagree with her outcome.
Bonedigger
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entrylevelsleuth
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, December 08, 2003 - 3:17 pm: | |
On most counts I agree that PC depends too much on the Ripper letters as evidence, but several of the confessionary letters - the more credible ones - did analyze as having paints and pigments that were unlikely to be found outside of an artists' studio, did they not? Wondering... |
Dan Norder
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2003 - 4:16 am: | |
"the more credible ones"
Didn't realize there were any.
Lusk letter, maybe, could be slightly credible, largely because of the liver (presumed human)... but I don't know which letters supposedly had these pigments. |
Opal Elaine Small (Moyer)
Police Constable
Username: Bonedigger
Post Number: 6
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 16, 2003 - 8:59 pm: | |
How many artists might have lived in the area at the time of the murders? If these letters carried any crediblity, couldn't they have been written by an obscure artist or an art student? There's always a possibility there that none of the suspects were JtR and he completed elluded anyone's notice. Perhaps he was one of those people who, to the world, was "invisible" and was very good at remaining so. The hardest killers to catch are the ones that are mild mannered and have no police record. A true madman would not allow his madness to be seen openly and would only show the world what he wants them to see.
Bonedigger
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Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 807
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 7:20 pm: | |
For once I tend to agree with Dan.
IF any of the Ripper letters could be considered genuine to some degree, it would probably be the Lusk letter. I believe the chances for that is 50-50. But unfortunately we would need the organ that came with it, to establish its credibility.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Glenn L Andersson
Chief Inspector
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 808
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 17, 2003 - 7:34 pm: | |
Hi, Opal.
I think there is a very good possibility that none of the known suspects were JtR. I also think it is possible that some of the letters were written by some artist(s), maybe even Walter Sickert -- that can't be ruled out. But as you and many others here have implied -- that doesen't make him Jack the Ripper. I believe Jack the Ripper was a complete nobody, although I can't prove it.
Regarding your post, September 27, 2003 - 11:34 pm: I must say I am almost allergic to conspiracy stories; the reality is for the most part less complicated and romantic. The Joseph Sickert story seem to regain its popularity, though, especially in the US (thanks to Hollywood?), but unfortunately it falls upon its own lack of credibility and factual flaws. Why Joseph Sickert withdraw his story we will never know for sure, but there is quite a lot pointing at he made up the whole fairy-tale. For those who have studied this story and read Stephen Knight's book I can recommend Rumbelow's splendid analysis of the theory in question in his own book -- like any author he has not the monopoly of the ultimate truth, but his criticism of the theory is well researched and an interesting read nevertheless.
All the best
Glenn L Andersson
Crime historian, Sweden |
Raymond Speer
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 30, 2003 - 1:20 pm: | |
My prejudices are for W.H. Bury as a suspect -- on the scene, definitely a murderer, no links with high society, Masons, magic & etc. Of course, Occam's Razor theories remain only guesses. Bury's failure to cover up Ellen's murder is not what would be expected from the Saucy Jacky of legend.
Chapman was a murderer too, but never used a knife. OTOH, he was apprehended for the murder of his "wives." I guess it is possible that he was a discreet killer with women who had a documented connection with him, but with the women he had "one-night-stands" with, he may have been more violent.
Sickert would never have been brought into Ripper discussion but for the fact that he was, like all of us on this netsite, an amateur theorist on the case. His tales of the Lodger assured that Ripperologists knew his name, and from there on it was only a matter of time before he was defamed as Jack. |
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