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Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 107
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 3:56 am: |       |
G'day,
And this
http://www.cyberartsweb.org/victorian/books/mcdonnell/billingsgate.html
LEANNE
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Marie Finlay
Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 23
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 9:00 am: | |
Hello everyone,
Leanne, thank you for posting those links!
Robert, you posted: "I get the impression about Joseph Barnett that he seemed to be a bit of a loner"
Well, although I'm admittedly not very well-versed in his story, I can't imagine that Joe was completely friendless?
But I agree, my best bet for an 'accomplice' of sorts would be his brother, Dan. He would most likely be sympathetic to his brother's plight with Mary, and perhaps he shared Joe's contempt for prostitutes.
(Another interesting point is that Maurice Lewis saw Mary drinking with a man named Dan.) |
Robert Clack
Police Constable
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 8
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 2:31 pm: | |
Hi Leanne, Marie, everyone.
Leanne, thank you for those links.
Marie, I didn't mean to imply that Joseph Barnett was completely friendless, I meant that I don't think he had any real close friends or people he would socialize with, I think his world revolved around Mary Kelly. And if he had an accomplice they would have to be pretty close. I mean I wouldn't stand by and watch my best friend rip someone apart.
Your right about what Maurice Lewis saw, its a pity he wasn't more clear about who he saw, as it has recently been discussed on these boards that it could also have been Danny McCarthy.
Rob |
Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 108
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 3:44 pm: | |
G'day,
From Paley's book: 'Lewis saw Kelly in the Horn of Plenty where she was drinking with some companions, amoung them her friend Julia (venturney) and a man identified as 'Dan', described as an orange seller with whom Kelly had recently been living. obviously this is a description of Joseph Barnett...' (Maurice Lewis's statement was carried in Loyds Newspaper, 11 November.
LEANNE
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Marie Finlay
Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 24
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 4:24 pm: | |
Hello everyone,
Robert, you posted: " I think his world revolved around Mary Kelly"
I think you're right about this, and this is why he's such a tantalizing suspect, to my mind.
Also, his association, and subsequent difficulties with Mary give him a tangible motivation for committing the other murders, to my mind. Certainly more so than some of our sillier suspects.
Leanne, thank you for posting that quote! I think Maurice may have confused Dan and Joe, it could have been either one of them drinking with her, and Julia.
Still, the fact that Maurice confused the brothers tells me that they may have been very close, which would lend weight to the scenario that Dan would 'cover' for Joe, or aid him.
Robert, I agree that it could have been Dan McCarthy whom Mary was seen drinking with. But I think it more likely that it was Joe, or Dan Barnett- because Maurice seemed to think that our mystery man was living with Mary, until just 'recently'.
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Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 109
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 5:11 pm: | |
G'day,
Why would Lewis describe 'Dan' as an orange seller? Daniel Barnett, (who took over as head of the Barnett family with both parents gone), worked as a fish-porter at Billingsgate Market too. Was Dan McCarthy an orange seller too? I don't know whether to describe Daniel Barnett an accomplice yet.
If it was Daniel and not Joseph himself, he could have been pleading with Kelly to take his brother back!
LEANNE
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Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 110
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 5:21 pm: | |
G'day,
Maurice Lewis's sighting was between 10.00 p.m. and 11:00p.m., the night before her body was found.
Joseph Barnett told Inspector Abberline that the time of his last visit with Kelly took place between 7:30 and 8:00 p.m.
I believe Joseph Barnett left his pipe on Kelly's mantlepiece, after he returned to Kelly's room that night.
LEANNE
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Robert Clack
Police Constable
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 9
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 29, 2003 - 6:02 pm: | |
Hi Leanne
Maurice Lewis apparently saw Mary Kelly at 10 a.m. on the morning of her murder in the Brittania Public, it is strange that he claimed to have know Mary Kelly for five years (before she was supposed to have came to London) yet confused Dan for Joe, it makes me wonder how reliable he was.
Rob |
Marie Finlay
Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 25
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 4:50 am: | |
Hi everyone,
Leanne, I'm not sure of Dan McCarthy's profession. I thought it was posted as 'grocer' in the Daniel McCarthy thread, but I can't find it there, now (perhaps that was part of the hoax, and we should disregard it).
But he certainly wasn't living with Mary. Is there any chance that Dan Barnett supplemented his income by also selling oranges? Or am I reaching, here?
Robert, it sounds like Maurice knew Mary on a very casual basis. It's possible to know someone for years, but still be sketchy on the intimate details of their life.
Also, even though there is a good six years between my sister and myself, people still get us mixed up, from time to time. Even people who know us reasonably well. Perhaps this was the case with Dan and Joe Barnett. |
Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 116
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 6:22 am: | |
G'day All,
Maurice Lewis was a tailor living in Dorset Street, who told the press he had known Kelly for about five years. ('The A-Z').
Daniel Barnett was born in 1851, so he was 7 years older than Joseph. Their father died when he was 12 and he got a job at Billingsgate where his father had worked. He saw to it that his younger brothers finished school, then all Barnett boys started working at Billingsgate. All 4 Barnett boys were licenced porters in 1878, and according to these licenses they were all of fair complexion. Daniel was an inch shorter than Joseph and all had blue eyes.
The only existing reference to Joseph's alibi is according to the Daily Telegraph, which says that he said he 'was at Buller's Lodging House in New Street, and was playing whist there until half past twelve when he went to bed.' This is no alibi when we consider Mary Kelly's time of death!
This is how I see it:
Joseph Barnett told Abberline that he visited Mary on the 8th of November between 7:30 and 7:45 p.m., to tell her that he had no money. Being rejected, he went off to Buller's, (without his pipe), to play with his friends.
Between 10:00 p.m. and 11:00 p.m., (I read elsewhere that the given time was between 10:00 and 10:45), Maurice Lewis saw Kelly at the 'Horn of Plenty', drinking with Julia Venturney and 'Dan'. If 'Dan' was Joe's brother, then I'd say he was pleading with Kelly to take Joe back.
Meanwhile, Joseph stayed at Buller's to play pipeless with his friends, until half past midnight when he felt relaxed enough to go to bed.
If George Hutchinson is to be believed, Mary Kelly was out at 2:00 a.m. the next morning, looking for customers.....and Joseph's pipe was still sitting on the mantlepiece!
LEANNE
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Robert Clack
Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 13
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 8:54 am: | |
Hi Leanne, Marie
You may like to look at the press report for 'Illustrated Police News' 17th November 1888.
It gives a bit more information about what Maurice Lewis saw.
Also I think Mary Kelly was murdered much later in the morning, after Caroline Maxwell saw her.
Marie, I can see another agree to disagree coming on. Maurice Lewis discribed Mary Kelly fairly well, and he was playing 'pitch and toss' in Millers Court about 10 o'clock on the morning of her murder. So he was know to Millers Court, and he discribed Joe Barnett pretty well just called him Dan for some strange reason. I wonder if there was a bit of resemblance between Dan and Joe Barnett.
Rob |
Marie Finlay
Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 26
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 3:21 pm: | |
Hello everyone,
I found that article very intriguing, particularly since it claims that Mary was killed after 8.30 am. I find it interesting that the article also initially refers to Joe Barnett as 'Dan'.
Also, this article claims that Mary had a child living with her- what source did this information come from, I wonder?
Another 'source' claims that Mary was seen with Joe Barnett at The Ringers. Also, the article seems to heavily imply that the man whom Maxwell saw speaking with Kelly outside the pub, was her killer. I wonder who he was?
I notice there was no mention of George Hutchinson's statements in the article? (Not that I'm inclined to believe everything he claimed, by any means).
At any rate Rob, we don't have to agree to disagree, this time- I'm not questioning the fact that Lewis knew Mary at all. In fact, I'm thinking along the same lines as you, that there may have been a family resemblance between Joe and Dan, hence the confusion.
That's why I brought up the fact that people sometimes confuse my sister and I. |
Robert Clack
Sergeant
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 14
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 30, 2003 - 5:40 pm: | |
Hi Marie
The source for the information that Mary Kelly had a child living with her was apparently Joseph Barnett. He told The Star 10 November, 1888, that she had a little boy of six or seven living with her, and that she occasionally visited a prostitute in the Elephant and Castle area.
This is another mystery which may or may not have important implications, as an unnamed source told the 'New York Times' that she had seen Lizzie Fisher with a well dressed man at 10.30 p.m. on 8 November, 1888, that Lizzie's boy spent the night at a neighbour's and was sent on an errand by the man who was in his mothers second floor lodging when he returned home in the morning.
Now this source probably confused Lizzie Fisher with Mary Kelly, but it is interesting that Catharine Eddowes had a sister called Elzabeth Fisher, the clothing that was wrapped around Elzabeth Jackson's body had a name tape for L.E. Fisher. And it doesn't hide the fact that Joseph Barnett believed Mary Kelly's son was staying with her, so what happened to him.
Rob |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 72
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 2:55 am: | |
Hi everyone,
The boy staying with Kelly is a mystery, a day after her murder Barnet mentions a son, surely he would have known that fact, and everbody else in the court, so why was it not publized more?
Intrestingly according to the sun newspaper in 1893, a blind boy heard her killers voice, someone kelly took a passionate intrest in.
The mystery thickens..
Richard. |
Chris Phillips
Sergeant
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 19
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 3:31 am: | |
The reference to a blind boy sounds like Alice Mackenzie, not Kelly:
http://www.casebook.org/victims/mckenzie.html
Chris Phillips
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Leanne Perry
Detective Sergeant
Username: Leanne
Post Number: 121
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 6:27 am: | |
G'day Robert,
I am still reading that 'Illustrated Police News' report you mentioned, over and over!
LEANNE |
Marie Finlay
Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 27
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 8:17 am: | |
Well, this changes things, somewhat. I can't imagine why Joe would lie about Mary having her son living with her.
This was also confirmed by another female source, who claimed that Mary told her she would 'do away with herself', if she couldn't find any money for her boy.
Then who was the 'well dressed man'? If he stayed overnight, this would seem to conflict with Cox's statement that she saw Mary going home with the man with the carrotty mustache. It also conflicts with Hutchinson's statements (who I tend to disbelieve, anyhow).
What happened to Mary's son? According to the newspaper report, he saw the man who was with his mother, when the man sent him on an errand- and so would have been able to identify him! |
Scott Medine
Sergeant
Username: Sem
Post Number: 19
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 8:26 am: | |
Would a carrotty mustache be describing a reddish or orange colored mustache? Maybe a strawberry blond color?
Peace,
Scott |
Marie Finlay
Sergeant
Username: Marie
Post Number: 29
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 11:12 am: | |
Hi Scott,
I would think that a 'carrotty' mustache could describe a mustache that was either red, or strawberry blond, as you mention.
By some accounts, Mary herself had 'fair' hair, and she was also known as 'ginger', so I imagine her hair would have been quite reddish. However, she was described by others that knew her as 'dark' haired.
My own hair (when I don't colour it), has been described as anywhere between dark blonde, and mid brown.
So I'm wondering if the same 'carroty' mustache could be described as a 'dark' mustache, by another witness. Obviously, depending upon the light, and particularly if the mustache had more than one colour in it- as is sometimes naturally the case with men.
Witness descriptions seem to be very subjective. |
Scott Medine
Sergeant
Username: Sem
Post Number: 20
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 12:34 pm: | |
Marie,
Thanks. That's what I thought.
Peace,
Scott |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Sergeant
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 42
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 31, 2003 - 2:57 pm: | |
Whatho all,
The Star may have reported Joseph Barnett as saying Mary Kelly had a lad staying with her but that does not make it the truth. How many times do we come across absolute bollocks being portrayed as fact in the Ripper case? Especially by newspapers now let alone then.
Cheers, Mark |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Detective Sergeant
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 74
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 3:03 am: | |
Hi ,
With reference to the blind boy having a connection to Mackenzie, that is true, the newspaper just picked up on the coincedence, that Kelly had a passionate intrest in a blind boy also.
Mark,
Dont forget not only Barnett mentioned a boy living with Kelly,it came from another female source also.
If their was a boy staying with kelly on and off during that week, it is quite conceivable that someone close by looked after that child on the fateful night[ morning?] she my have even rented out her room to another woman and man for a couple of hours in desperation to obtain money to satisfy M;carthy.and we can gather what happened then.
As for the child if he was blind , he may have well heard the killers voice, but of course would not reconize him by sight.
Richard. |
Monty
Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 18
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 8:19 am: | |
Scott,
See what I mean ??
Its uncanny isnt it ??
Duff picture I admit.....but in my eyes !!!
Monty
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Scott Medine
Sergeant
Username: Sem
Post Number: 21
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 8:23 am: | |
Monty,
I know what you mean. For the last year or so I've been wondering why no one has ever ventured there.
Peace,
Scott |
Monty
Sergeant
Username: Monty
Post Number: 20
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2003 - 8:36 am: | |
Scott,
Too simple ?? Too obvious ??? Not sensational enough for the masses ??
I do not know mate. I must admit that until you mentioned it I missed it as well.
That said, the composite covers quite alot of people though. Its probably best not to get carried away until more information is found...
....but that said also, its a lot closer than others out there.
Well Done for making the connection
Monty
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