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Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 3323
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 12:40 pm: | 
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Came across several ads for a "Dr. J. Liverpool", aka the "Great Indian Herb Doctor" with offices in Tremont Street, Boston in the local press of January 1882. There were enough similarities between Dr. Liverpool and Dr. Tumblety to give me pause, namely:
1. The picture here looks a bit like Tumblety's 1872 photo in his Prussian uniform.
2. Both doctors referred to themselves as the "Great Indian Herb Doctor" - Tumblety refered to himself as the "Great American Indian Herb Doctor".
3. Both had offices in Tremont Street, Boston.
4. Both used similar testimonials and wording in their advertisements.
5. Both offered free consultations.
Is there a chance this was Tumblety? Or possibly one of Tumblety's apprentices who followed in his stead?
Maybe, maybe not. 
Stephen P. Ryder, Exec. Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper
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R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 762
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 12:44 pm: |
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Stephen--I have quite a lot of information about J.H. Liverpool. I have his birth record and a copy of his will (he died in Boston). He's definitely not Tumblety, but the plot (I think) does indeed thicken. Alot of similarity exists, and I've been chasing this guy down for awhile. RP |
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 3324
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 12:54 pm: |
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Hi R.J. -
Would love to hear your thoughts/theory on Dr. Liverpool.
- Stephen
Stephen P. Ryder, Exec. Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper
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Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 3325
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 1:12 pm: |
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For anyone interested in the minutiae, some ads gave Dr. Liverpool's address as 489 Tremont Street, while others gave it as 633 Tremont Street.
Stephen P. Ryder, Exec. Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper
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R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 763
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 1:52 pm: |
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Stephen--After reading Evans and Gainey's book five or six years ago, I got interested in the strange scene of 19th Century quacks. I've felt for sometime that Liverpool is probably a former Black assistant of Tumblety, but I'm still working on the details. He went on to have quite a career himself, including killing a couple of patients through malpractice, including a small boy. Alot of these quacks knew each other, and found it expedient to keep in touch. If a malpractice suit went to court, they could drum up their ol' friend Dr. Sawbones as part of their defense team. Or they could quote each other in their "medical guides." What's rather surprising is that the line between quack and legitimate physician was a fairly thin one. Tumblety rubbed elbows with established or semi-established doctors. One of the oddities of his 1889 pamphlet is that he gets an endorsement from Dr. Cyrus Edson--who was the head of the Health Department in New York City. It appears to be a genuine endorsement. By a curious coincidence, Edson was an expert witness at the Carrie Brown murder trial, commenting on her injuries, and was, I think present at her autopsy. Another one of Tumblety's quack friends was Dr. E.P. Miller, who ran the "Bath House Hotel" in New York. He is quite a study in himself. Wrote a number of odd pamphlets on masturbation, Free Enterprise, Social Purity, and (my favorite) the proper way to take a bath. They were a decidely odd bunch, these quacks. I could ramble on for a couple of hours, but I let you off easy this time. RP |
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 3326
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 2:24 pm: |
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Very interesting! And please, feel free to ramble on as much as you like - I know I'm not alone in saying your posts are regularly some of the most informative on the site.
Stephen P. Ryder, Exec. Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper
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Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 238
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 6:44 pm: |
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Stephen Ryder
Good find. It sure looks like Tumblety to me.
Very interesting indeed.
regards
Julie
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Martin Anderson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Scouse
Post Number: 85
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 7:18 pm: |
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Julie et al,
Sorry but maybe I'm getting this wrong. I thought the point was that it was NOT Tumblety but another Dr altogether which is another long winding path into lacklustre impeachment...
Yours
Signed
Martin Anderson
Analyst
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1697
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 1:07 pm: |
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Hi Stephen, R.J., Julie, Martin et al.--
Isn't the lesson here that a number of these quacks had similar gigs? Dr. Liverpool might have been an emulator of Tumblety or vice versa, possibly. Also the face fuzz was a period style so of course a number of individuals will look similar. I am similarly always amused by the pictures of Prince Eddy and Druitt in which people say the two men look like clones or brothers. Well, they are wearing a similar cap in both pictures but that for me is pretty much where the physical similarity ends.
But back to Drs. Tumblety and Liverpool: The self-advertising of "cures" supposedly testified by the rich and powerful was what these guys did. Tumblety was in the habit of citing eminent people as patients.
This is why I have to doubt that the apparent endorsement from Dr. Cyrus Edson, Commissioner of Health for New York City, published by Tumblety, was the real deal. He was as likely to have been backed by Edson as by General George "Little Mac" Brinton McLennan for the surgical work Tumblety claimed to have done for the Union Army during the Civil War but did not.
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
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Malta Joe
Detective Sergeant
Username: Malta
Post Number: 143
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 1:17 pm: |
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Now you know how I feel, Stephen. Whenever I think I've found something new, I soon realize that Roger had discovered it years before! You think we've got it tough? Imagine how bad Neil Armstrong felt after he drove his moon buggy up to the sign which read: "Roger's Gas Station - Next Exit" !!!
I know how hard it is to dig up this kind of material, and you both deserve to be applauded for your superb efforts. I've talked with a few researchers who have taken up the subject of Tumblety - apprentices. I look forward to hearing what they've come up with. |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1140
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 2:06 pm: |
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Hi all,
Interesting subject, R.J. I'd love to hear more.
I don't know what the case was with Edson, but this was a problem in England (at least at mid-century), well-placed people endorsing questionable medical practices. Quacks were favorite targets of medical coroners like Thomas Wakley, who used the inquest to reform the medical system, which was killing people through incompetence. Wakley called quacks and their endorsers "noodles and knaves"--knaves being the quacks and noodles being the people who believed and endorsed them. In 1850, Wakley lit up the Homeopathic Association in the House of Commons.
He hoped, however, that hon. Members would set their faces against this impudent proceeding. He called it “impudent,” for he believed that a more audacious set of quacks did not exist, and could not be found, on the surface of the globe, than were to be found in the Homœpathic Institution. It consisted partly of noodles and partly of knaves. The noodles formed the majority, and the knaves used them as tools; and if they could contrive to get into their hands some amiable noble Lord, and to stick him up as president, they advertised their association over the world, and then as it often unfortunately happened in such cases, too many dupes were found to become the victims of their abominable designs. (Hansard, August 2 1850).
What had happened was that Wakley's deputy coroner was under attack in the Commons from Lord Grosvenor, the member for Middlesex. Wakley's deputy had held an inquest which returned a verdict of manslaughter against some person practicing homeopathy (the patient had died). As a remedy, Grosvenor took the odd position that coroners' deputies should be abolished; Wakley was quick to remind the Commons that Grosvenor was coincidentally President of the Homeopathic Association (which Grosvenor had somehow neglected to mention).
Noodles and knaves. I don't guess an M.D. or public position is a preventative for greediness or foolishness. Somewhere I've got an ad featuring a coroner endorsing cocoa.
Dave |
Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 239
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 8:20 pm: |
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Martin Anderson,
Martin, I merely stated that the picture of Dr. Liverpool looks a lot like Tumblety.
I did not state that it was him, only that they looked alike.
regards
Julie
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Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 241
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 23, 2005 - 8:39 pm: |
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Christopher T. George,
Hi Christopher,
There is no doubt that many persons emulated others especially if they were offering a service, however I felt that the pictures that I have seen of Tumblety and this one of Liverpool does have more similarities than just face fuzz.
Withe respect to Druitt and Prince Eddy, again I thought their features were very similar not just their caps.
It is no doubt a fact that I do not have as trained an eye for feature details or it could be just power of suggestion that brings me to this conclusion concerning the similarities in these men.
No doubt you have viewed more of these photos than I have so I concede re the look comparisions.
with respect
Julie
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1698
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 4:52 pm: |
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Hi Julie
Prince Eddy and Druitt were both, on the basis of the photographs that are compared, thin, ascetic looking young men with some vague facial similarity. But to say they look the same or similar is really picking up the type of argument made when this comparison was first made, in the 1970's, that seems one of a piece with the line of reasoning, for example, that because erstwhile Ripper suspect Frank Miles and Sir Melvin MacNaghten lived in the vicinity of Tite Street, there has to be a link between Miles and the murders. Mere geographic proximity or physical similarity is not proof but belongs more properly in the class of fallacious or weak reasoning. This line of argument is often employed by writers who have a nice theory but no real proof.
Chris
(Message edited by chrisg on November 24, 2005)
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
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CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 9:02 pm: |
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Hi Julie,
I agree, there are some similar features between Tumblety's 1876 picture and the picture Stephen posted. The man in stephen's picture seems heavier, but the man in that picture is six years older. I thought I had read that Tumblety had put on weight. There is nothing wrong with your eyes. However, R.J. seems to know alot about the man in the picture above, so I believe him that the man in the above picture was not Tumblety.
Your friend, Brad |
Timothy B. Riordan
Sergeant
Username: Timothy
Post Number: 14
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 10:09 am: |
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Hi All,
Tumblety’s training as a doctor was, while in what we would call alternative medicine, typical for his day. Students would train under a “preceptor,” a recognized professional, until they had learned enough to go out on their own. Tumblety seems to have had two preceptors. From Dr. Lispenard/Reynolds he took his understanding of the hype of treating secret diseases. However, the major part of his persona came from Dr. Rudolph J. Lyons, The Great American Indian Herb Doctor. Dr. Lyons was in Baltimore in 1850, in upstate New York (based in Rochester) in the mid 1850s and moved to Ohio in the 1860. Tumblety’s ads in Canada copy the wording of Lyons’ ads almost verbatim. Interestingly, Tumblety acted as a preceptor for at least one student in Toronto.
While I have not looked into the subject deeply, I have come across four other practitioners who called themselves “The Great American Indian Herb Doctor” ranging from the 1850s to the 1890s. It may look strange to us, but this seems to have been a recognized catagory of medical practioner in the 19th century
Tim |
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 3328
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2005 - 10:21 am: |
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Hi Tim -
Thanks for the info! Particularly interested in what you had to say about Dr. Lyons, glad someone has followed up on that lead.
- Stephen
Stephen P. Ryder, Exec. Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper
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R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 769
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 5:56 pm: |
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Tim - As far as I have been able to gather, Tumblety's connection with R.J. Lyons isn't as clear-cut as it appears. Lyons was in Rochester, but the evidence seems to suggest that this wasn't until Tumblety already left town. Oddly, Lyons can be found living on Sophia Street...which is where Tumblety lived. My belief is that Tumblety was much more akin to Dr. Lispenard in his early years. One of Tumblety's early pamphlets has survived, and shows that he treated sexual diseases. For those who have doubted Tumblety's 'thing' for the uterus as testified by Col. Dunham, it might come as an unpleasant surprise to find that Tumblety had verifiably odd notions about the female anatomy dating years before Dunahm---most dramatically, he believed that the uterus stored the sexual 'impressions' of the woman. Fairly strange stuff for a man who would later be "among the suspects" for Jack the Ripper, a man who cut out uteri.
I continue to believe that most historians of the case have made the error of misreading Tumblety, too quickly accepted the cartoonish figure presented in the 1888 press. The real Tumblety was merely a more brutal version of Neill Cream---and that ought to tell us something important. Cheers, RP
(Message edited by rjpalmer on December 04, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 985
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 9:50 pm: |
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Hi R.J.
Actually Tumblety seems to be a more successful version of Neill Cream. I think it's because he had his priorities straight. Cream appears to have enjoyed inflicting pain. Tumblety did not care if he did - the bottom line was his profits.
Cream also was less realistic in his schemes for making a dishonest fortune. Schemes like blackmailing celebrities by claiming they poisoned prostitutes, or marrying wealthy women after he helped make them wealthy widows of his patients. Tumblety does not appear to be so ridiculous in his scheming.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
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