| Author |
Message |
    
Michael Thompson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 5:49 pm: | 
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I realize that the chances of this being answered is slim, since this particular thread has been cold for quite some time. However, as I was reading it, a thought occurred to me.
Bob,
It seems as though you based quite a bit of your conjecture on the fact that Abberline's assignment of two police officers to Hutchinson indicated a secret distrust of the man that appeared nowhere in the official reports. I will agree that this scenario is plausible from the outside.
However, is it not just as plausible that Abberline would assign two police officers to a witness who had very publicly announced that he could identify Jack the Ripper in case the Ripper had gotten just as good a look at George that George got of him and happened to be waiting to carve George into giblets at the first available opportunity? |
Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 306
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 6:39 am: |
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Dear Michael,
I pointed out the fact that Abberline sent two officers with GH as an additional point against him. I certainly don't mean to convey that its my main belief in GH's guilt.
I do emphasise the point that at this stage Abberline didn't know GH was the killer, just that something didn't ring true.
Bob |
Michael Thompson
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 7:05 pm: |
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Oh, I agree that something doesn't ring true about the detail that Hutchinson gives in his description.
The problem that I have with a lot of this is that there are numerous plausible scenarios that spring to mind when I consider what George might have been doing that night or why he delayed his testimony or how it was that he managed to get such a detailed description of such an elusive killer when even Israel Schwartz' description during the Stride killing was so sketchy.
For example:
Is it plausible that Hutchinson might have been one of these paid equivalent of 'neighborhood watch' guys? Assuming so, (and remember I am saying 'assuming'), to me it strikes me as plausible that his story might be totally true up to the point of the 45 minute wait. At that point, he might have realized the murder was happening, tried to steel himself to do something about it, then froze, and listened to or watched her die because he could not find it in himself to brace someone who had so brutally killed so many people.
This sort of 'feels' right to me simply because fear is an almost overwhelming motivator.
Why then did he not run for help? I honestly cannot say. Why did 40 neighbors watch Kitty Genovese die in New York and not do a thing? However, if (and there's that thing about assumption again) he did, that could explain his reluctance to come forward and why his story was detailed enough to explain his presence, but careful enough to not implicate him. Perhaps he did not want the truth of his cowardice to be exposed.
However, that is purely based on assumptions that cannot be proven. It is tantamount to saying, "I believe that x may be the Ripper because he had a mustache and the killer was said by many witnesses to have a mustache."
Alternatively, another plausible alternative is that Hutchinson was a glory-seeker or a reward-seeker who wanted to insert himself into the Ripper investigation.
Either way, I agree, there is more to Hutchinson's description than meets the eye. |
AAH
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 2:28 pm: |
|
Hutchinson was being taken around to see if he could spot the suspect. The arrest of a suspect would require two officers, not one. |
Restless Spirit
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 65
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 3:52 pm: |
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Bob Hinton
Sorry to contact you through Casebook, however, your book From Hell was recommended to me, but I am having one heck of a time finding a copy.I've had Amazon searching for me used or otherwise for at least three months with no success. Could you please direct me to a source that can supply same. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
best regards
Restless Spirit
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Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 575
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 5:25 pm: |
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Hi Restless,
There's a copy listed on Ebay. Hope this link works.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2240&item=8313163685&rd=1
All the best
Rob |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 736
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 19, 2005 - 8:36 pm: |
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Hi R.S.,
Bob's book was apparently reprinted this year, so copies should be available here and there. Loretta Lay has some in stock: http://www.laybooks.com/
The current eBay auction in Rob's link above looks to be one of these reprints and not an original, if that makes a difference to you. It also looks cheaper than Loretta's base price for the same thing, assuming it doesn't get bid up too high.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1562
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 12:53 pm: |
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Hi Restless Spirit et al
Another good source for books, albeit used, is ABE Books at http://www.abebooks.com/ -- where I have had a lot of luck getting out of print titles. As noted, though, Bob's book, having been recently reprinted should be available through a number of sources.
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
See "Jack--The Musical" by Chris George & Erik Sitbon
The Drama of Jack the Ripper Weekend
Charlotte, NC, September 16-18, 2005
http://www.actorssceneunseen.com/ripper.asp
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Restless Spirit
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 67
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 4:14 pm: |
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Christopher T George
Thank you Chris for your lead to help me in my hunt for various books.
Much appreciated
Restless Spirit
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Restless Spirit
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 68
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 4:19 pm: |
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Dan Norder
Thank you Dan for your lead re my hunt for From Hell. I am generally quite lucky with Amazon, they search for used as well as supply new. Much appreciated, I'll bookmark same.
regards
Restless Spirit
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Restless Spirit
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 69
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 4:22 pm: |
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Robert Clack
Thanks Robert, et al. I have had such a great response to my email to Bob, WOW. Thank you all for taking the time to assist me. It is greatly appreciated.
regards
Restless Spirit
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Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 2668
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 20, 2005 - 4:27 pm: |
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Restless
Loretta has Bob's book in stock
Good hunting
Suzi |
James D. Smith
Sergeant
Username: Diomedes
Post Number: 25
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 21, 2005 - 1:09 am: |
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I have wondered if George Hutchinson may have been the killer's look out and went to the police to give a bogus description of a man to throw the police off. I have only wondered about this. I have always felt there was organized activity behind the killings. |
Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 310
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 27, 2005 - 11:40 am: |
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Dear Everyone,
If anyone has any problems getting hold of a copy of 'From Hell' just drop me an email.
Bob Hinton |
Theo
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, July 17, 2005 - 1:48 pm: |
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The real question is about the points in Hutchinson's testimony that appear at least suspicious. First of all the detailed description of a man who is so totally NOT a poor eastender. A description that meets the "he is a Jew" stereotype of the time. A rich Jew, showing off his gold chain, appearing loud and cheerful, meeting GH in the eye, as close as you can get. Yet no dialogue with MJK, who had just asked for money (supposedly). and a wrong description of the public house when he supposedly listened to the original MJK- rich man dialogue.
Then theres the 45 minutes. why 45 and not 30 or one hour. Why specifically such a time schedule? An allibi? And why no reference of Lewis who witnessed a different looking man outside dorset street?
Something stinks in this- and its not my feet.. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2637
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 1:14 pm: |
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Regarding George Hutchinson I have found an interesting little case from the Thames Police Court proceedings of the 2nd September 1887.
Now I can't say yet that this is the same George Hutchinson, but it certainly does seem to be him, and his age is about right, 33.
Anyways George Hutchinson is described as 'respectably dressed' and is stated to be 'well connected'.
He's up before the beak for stealing a valuable gold watch - got a thing about gold watches this Georgie Boy - but it is not a simple case, for George pretends to be drunk and incapable in a chemist's shop where he is helped by a kind elderly gent, who takes him to his Whitechapel home, sends for a doctor as poor old George has taken a turn for the worse, allows him to use his wife's bedroom to clean his face - where he steals the valuable gold watch in its case - and they part best of friends, that is until the wife comes home and finds her gold watch gone.
He is arrested when he attempts to pawn the watch later.
Now two things strike me here.
Firstly we are dealing a criminal trickster here who was well-connected to the Whitechapel criminal underworld.
Secondly I do see elements of Hutchinson's statement to the police after the murder of Kelly as having their origin in this very crime of his own.
If it was indeed him.
I reckon it was. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5130
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 1:32 pm: |
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Hi AP
Have a look at April 5th post by RJ Palmer at
../4922/6536.html"#C6C6B5"> |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 140
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 1:36 pm: |
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AP, is this the one where George was hanging around the neck of the old man's horse outside the shop, petting and making a drunken fuss of it.
Did I read somewhere that George Hutchinson used to be a groomsman? |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2638
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 1:56 pm: |
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Thanks for that, Robert.
I did a search through casebook first, but that never works out anyway!
My sincere apologies to RJ for stealing his thunder here.
But I do stand by my thoughts that this crime may well have influenced his testimony in the Kelly murder.
And yes, I think RJ is right, this is the one and same George Hutchinson.
Thanks Debra
a man who can handle horses is never to be trusted. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5131
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 2:42 pm: |
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Yes AP, he's worth looking at, definitely.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2639
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 5:03 pm: |
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Indeed Robert.
It is thought that Hutch was staying at the Victoria Home, Commercial Street, Whitechapel, on the night of Kelly's murder.
Interesting address.
It was a home for single men, strictly supervised by retired Metropolitan police officers of 'H' division, but even so there is strong connection between unfortunates, police officers and rogues - see the major investigation into the Metropolitan police of Feb 1907 where all manner of shady and nasty things are going on.
My impression is that anyone who would have been lodging at the Victoria Home would have been a police informer.
Sort of neat that. |
Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, October 07, 2005 - 8:16 pm: |
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I think he was at the inquest and hot-footed it over to the police station after he realised he was spotted watching Millers Court.So he invents seeing Kelly pickup Astrakan man as a reason for his being there, just in case his name came up.
WHY he was there is anyones guess. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1542
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 3:10 pm: |
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Hi AP,
Thanks for that snippit of information, just one major pitful GH at the time of the murders was 22 years old not 33.
Wrong man Sir.
Regards Richard. |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1544
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 3:20 pm: |
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Sorry,
Double posted also on the Barnett thread, but definately the wrong character .
Richard. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2588
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 3:43 pm: |
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AP,
At Kew when scrutinising the files I noticed That under "division" Charles Cutbush and Fred Abberline both worked at the [same]Commisioners Office-and were based there together over the same time period which included the Whitechapel murders.
Natalie |
Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 416
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 4:23 pm: |
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Richard,
Where do you get the information that GH was 22 at the time of the murders?
Bob |
Richard Brian Nunweek
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Richardn
Post Number: 1549
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 4:44 pm: |
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Hi Bob,
see the Barnett thread , however it will proberly be ridiculed as a piece of Nunnerism.
Again Bob it comes down to what one has heard with ones ears, but on this casebook nobody has heard what i have heard, which makes me look foolhardy, but I am am being totally honest.
Richard. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2822
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 5:11 pm: |
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If I thought back then that George Hutchinson was about 33 years old, a year before the murder of Kelly, then I had a good reason for saying so.
What that good reason was is in the storm of papers that litter my desk and fly around my head every time a fly passes.
However I still believe that the case from 1887 involving Hutchinson shows uncanny linkage to his statements to the police and press in 1888 regarding the circumstances of Kelly's death.
George liked his smoke and mirrors. |
R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 754
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 8:24 pm: |
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AP--Surely you're not 'stealing my thunder,' but only rattling up a few storm clouds of your own? I'm glad to see this Curious George getting a little more air-time after 2 1/2 years. If somebody could chase down how long he got sent up for, we'd have a better idea if this was our fellow or not. One mark against him is that Walter Dew spoke highly of Hutchinson in his memoirs, and I have a hard time believing the Met didn't quietly investigate every single, solitary person that came within 150 yards of one of the Whitehchapel murders; thus Dew would have known if he was a shady character or not. |
Harry Mann
Inspector
Username: Harry
Post Number: 207
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 3:50 am: |
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R.J.
May not Walter Dew have been influenced by Aberline's acceptance of Hutchinson's truthfulness?,and be not speaking of his own personnel knowledge of the person.
Much like Swanson's alliegence to Anderson. |
Bob Hinton
Inspector
Username: Bobhinton
Post Number: 419
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 9:23 am: |
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Richard,
You can't have a piece of a Nunnerism - you have to have the whole thing or nothing!
Bob |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2829
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 5:29 pm: |
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RJ
I tried tracking down the subsequent sentence, but failed.
My impression of Dew's book is not good, I did read it, several times, and he struck me as a 'fluffer', someone who wanted to be attached to events of import, but was really a reserve.
Of course I know he had his moment.
But I reckon that was it.
I've followed his path through the reports from the LVP and most of the time he isn't really there.
Remember in the case from 1887 Hutchinson is described in court as 'well connected', this could be read in many ways, to the underworld of Whitechapel? Or to the over-lords of Whitechapel, the Metropolitan Police?
The Victoria Home in Commercial Street where Hutchinson was living in 1888 was run by ex-officers of the Met.
I reckon he had some connexion. |
R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 756
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 9:06 pm: |
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AP - I couldn't find it either. Maybe one of the East End newspapers covered the story. Incidently that reminds me. The first Times story covering the court case of the Colocott & Cutbush jobbings alluded to an earlier piece of the initial scare, that allegedly appeared in The Times. I checked for this damn thing,too, a year or two ago, high and low, and never found it. Give it a go sometime, if you're in the mood. It might lead to something interesting. Take care, RP |
Harry Mann
Inspector
Username: Harry
Post Number: 209
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 4:08 am: |
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Before Hutchinson came forward with his story,there are no indications that Kelly left her room after arriving there at about midnight.In fact one witness says it was her custom,when arriving home the worse for drink,to sing and then retire to bed.It is known that on that night both of these things happened,though the time of the latter is not known.
Without evidence of her being seen with another person,the midnight companion,who's departure time is unknown,is the first logical suspect.After Hutchinson tells his story,the midnight visitor is apparently in the clear.What if that person was indeed Hutchinson himself?.Not impossible,and Hutchinson,if he was the Ripper,could hardly admit to it,and also admit to being there at 2.30 as well.So his story is an alibi for himself as both the midnight visitor and the person seen outside Crossinghams.
It is assumed by some that Hutchinson came forward because he was seen by Lewis,but I believe there was another reason too.It was also at the inquest that Barnett described the method of entry to the room as opening the door through the broken window.Hutchinson as a friend of Kelly,or as the midnight companion,could be expected to know of the method.
In the abscence of information to the contrary,the police might imply this was the means the killer used to gain access to the room,and what odds a stranger being thought responsible then.The introduction of a stranger being led to the room by the occupant,conveniently covers the fact that entry by the killer was by other than normal means. |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 869
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 1:13 pm: |
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The only problem I have with your scenario (which is very appealing -- I hope you can explain my caveat) is that Mary was found in a thin lightweight chemise. I know it was not fastened and just encased her arms and lay under her. The outdoor low temperature that day was 38 degrees fahrenheit. Mary's room was unheated. If she had gone to bed for the purpose of sleeping she would have been crazy not to wear something heavier or layers or something.
If on the other hand she was about to service a customer the chemise makes a lot more sense.
I'm assuming you think Hutchinson broke in on her while she was asleep?
Incidentally your information about Mary's bedtime routine is very enlightening. Sounds as though maybe ol' Blotchy was her last customer after all. We are creatures of habit. If that was her routine it practically guarantees she wasn't planning on going out again. |
Harry Mann
Inspector
Username: Harry
Post Number: 210
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 3:48 am: |
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Diana,
As the rest of her clothes was folded and placed on the chair,it does indicate to me she undressed herself.
I do not know whether the bedclothes would give sufficent protection from the cold,but the alcohol she had consumed might have helped.
As the singing seems to have begun soon after her arrival indoors,and to have carried on for quite some while,it stretches the imagination to believe she was also servicing a customer at the same time.My own belief is that the midnight man was an aquaintance who had a pot of beer to share,and of the few male friends we know of,and had no alibi for that evening and night,Hutchinson can be included.Indeed,because of her stated fear,it is more likely she would take a presumed friend home,than she would a stranger.
By the way I am 78 years old today,16 November,and while my mind is a bit hazy on the subject,singing and sex seems a little outlandish,especially a sad Irish song.She wasn't really losing anything,was she?.Well not at that time. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2598
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 10:07 am: |
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Harry,
But are you not assumung here that the ripper was some normal sort of guy???
Suppose he also liked being tied up and spanked ....to get himself in the right mood to "retaliate"?
Or maybe he had a yen for a fair , Irish colleen ..........whose flesh he could replace with red and pink roses?
.......but only after she had sung her heart out with an Irish dirge?
Natalie |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2328
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 10:18 am: |
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Many happy returns Harry!
I hope you have a great day.
Maybe, instead of calling it a night and walking off after hanging around for 45 minutes, Hutch went into Mary's room.
That might not make him her killer, but he would never have admitted that much.
There had to be a good reason why Hutch was loitering in the court for so long, and it's a bit of a coincidence that she was later found dead.
Two other more innocent possibilities spring to mind. If Hutch did indeed walk away, without even trying to look through Mary's window, it might suggest that he waited in vain for a previous customer to emerge, in the hope of sharing her room and getting warm and dry, or sharing her earnings.
Maybe he knew the rent man would try and collect the next morning and wanted to cream some off first (blimey, Mary would never have caught up with the rent arrears at that rate).
Love,
Caz
X |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2329
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 10:43 am: |
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Oooh Nats, what if the singing was to drown out the spanking and Jack's yelps? No wonder she cried out "Oh murder" after giving him 50 of the best.
Love,
Caz
X |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2599
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 10:44 am: |
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Harry
Many Happy Returns!
[sorry I hadnt realised it was your birthday today
-have a good day -
Natalie |
c.d.
Detective Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 69
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 11:31 am: |
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Hi Caz,
Hutch's behavior might be explained by Mary not knowing what her client's intentions were, whether he was interested in a brief encounter or an all night stay. If it was the former, I am sure that there was some sort of time limit imposed. She might have whispered to Hutch "wait 45 minutes or so, if he doesn't come out, most likely he will be spending the night." The implication being that if he comes out, Hutch can then spend the night in Mary's room.
c.d. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2600
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 11:56 am: |
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Maybe Caz,
....he was probably a regular-known by her and the other girls to favour flagellation and she had her boots on ready to have an hours lusty singing while she thrashed .......
myself I think Mr Astrakhan was just such another with his bag of tricks all ready-she knew him and he knew her
maybe she caught him at an awkward angle
and the dog turned! |
Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 218
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 7:14 pm: |
|
Harry
Happy Birthday, hope you have a great day.
Let it all hang out.
my best to you today
Julie
|
Harry Mann
Inspector
Username: Harry
Post Number: 212
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 4:10 am: |
|
Thanks for your greetings folk.
If money was her priority for to pay her rent,then a companion such as Hutchinson could promise to help,but regardless,I cannot see her spending a couple of hours inactive and then suddenly at 2am,walk the streets of Whitechapel in the hope of meeting a benefactor.Either the midnight man could help,or she had the opportunity to ditch him,and find a paying customer before retiring for the night.Seems the more sensible route to take. |
Rodney Peters
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 10:19 am: |
|
Hello Harry
I hope you're not just pulling my leg about your age, because this is just to say HAPPY BIRTHDAY, on this day, the 16th.of November, and may you have many more of them. If this is late getting to you, it's because I'm unregistered.
Best regards
ROD |
Harry Mann
Inspector
Username: Harry
Post Number: 215
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 3:33 am: |
|
Thanks Rodney,
78 (seventy eight) is my proper age,having been born in 1927.Wonder if I am the oldest person posting?.Perhaps it is why I sometimes slant my posts in what may appear a peculiar way.
Society had not advanced much since Victorian days,the thirties populated in the older age groups by many who were born at about and before the Ripper may have been.Whole districts were still lit by Gas light,and the same pubs flourished,patronised by the same type of clientel as had populated Whitechapel.
I was born in a Court which could have doubled for Millers Court,and the Thirties were years of depression and want.So if I appear to suspect a local,and Hutchinson in particular,maybe my early years subconciously point that way.
Regards.H.Mann. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2606
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 4:15 am: |
|
Hi Harry,
My Mother was born exactly ten years before you,November 1917,just as WW1 ended.
I was part of the WW2 baby boomer lot benefitting from the Welfare State,new libraries etc and a better all round standard of living-though I remember my hometown of Birkenhead still had a very Victorian town centre!
But all the features you describe about the thirties I heard about from my parents. And you are so right,particularly about the East End,and the area around the Whitechapel Hospital.Replace the immigrant Jewish community with the Bangladeshi Community and I imagine much hasnt changed-even to the housing being so run down!
And the market stalls along the Whitechapel Road still operate much the same conditions-hours,days of trade etc.
On the other hand an area near Christchurch,Spitalfields has become very affluent and fashionable- they even retain "gaslight" in some of the houses there-and they appear to have kept all the gas lamps too
from Victorian times but I think they have been adapted to electricity.
Anyway I think its important to remember how similar things are ,at least in some ways to the 19th century and how many of us have had grandparents who were brought up by people born at the time of the ripper.
Regards
Natalie |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2340
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 7:33 am: |
|
Hi Nats,
My paternal grandparents, both Londoners, were born in 1877 and 1878, so they were probably shielded from tales of the ripper's infamy until they were older and the immediate scare was over.
I wish now that I had been able to ask my grandfather (he died when I was eight) what memories, if any, he had of that time. I know he travelled by underground with his father to see some of the original Gilbert & Sullivan operettas when he was a child.
Love,
Caz
X |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2607
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 10:18 am: |
|
Lovely cameo that Caz of your grandfather"s outing to see an original G&S show.Must have been wonderfulfor a youg child,travelling on the tube then seeing one of those famous shows!
I know for certain my maternal grandmother saw Marie Lloyd in person at one of the old music halls in Birkenhead because she still went on about it in her seventies and eighties!She was born in 1892 so must have been
in her teens when she saw her and I actually seem to remember her saying she went to the stage door to see her in close up!She loved telling stories about her visits to the music hall and she used to take me to the Empire in Liverpool every year to see the Pantomimes and tell me all about Marie Lloyd and the other big stars of her day.I gathered that Marie had been a bit of a "saucy one"too--- fantastic fun to see live on stage!
There was an interesting if tragic angle to her husband"s father ,my gt. grandfather.He was a shipyard engineer and had been required to guard the quay as the Titanic was released from harbour in Belfast. As the ship was being unmoored ,one of the giant wooden poles that had supported it, fell on him and killed him instantly.
Apparently it was often said that the Titanic had been "launched with blood".[it must have referred to this first launch I reckon].
Nats
xxx |
Suzi Hanney
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Suzi
Post Number: 3278
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 12:42 pm: |
|
Blimey Caz
MY grandfather sailed with the White Star Line and much to my Grandmother's horror missed the 'Titanic' c/o of a night out!!!!! (odd that) for four days she was FURIOUS........... then when she saw the lists well....kept quiet! He was a steward and had sailed on the 'Olympic' and the 'Ophir'!
Then there was the night when he 'missed' the 'Lusitania' LUCKY man! my Grandad!
Caz
ALL together now....The Nightmare Song!!!!!
When youre lying awake............. lol
(and then you get to breakfast and it's powdered egg scrambled egg eh!!!!.......shame that doesn't rhymne!)
Nats
Ive got a chum whose Grandfather was in the band too will find out the name!!!!!
Love
Suzi xx |
