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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2589
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 4:26 pm: | 
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Both these Senior police officers who had worked on the hunt for Jack the Ripper retired within 6 months of one another .They were based in the same Commisioners office and must have had close knowledge of each other and one would presume a reasonable "working relationship".Charles Cutbush retired in August 1891 just 5 months after his "nephew"Thomas Cutbush was arrested and later placed in Broadmoor for life after being considered unfit to plead.
Charles retired with a first rate work record but with curious words attached to his "profile".It stated that he had "knife wounds" on his "right thigh"-but they were not apparently caused in his "line of duty"-indeed their origin appears to be "not known".
Charles shot himself in the head some five years later.His orbituary stated that he believed he was being poisoned by Catholics.........
He was born in Ashford Kent----not far from where Thomas Cutbush was possibly sighted by a Mr Crottie[cant exactly remember this detail except that it was in Kent].
Fred Abberline,the lead detective in the Ripper investigation appears to have been housed in the same Police[Commisioners dept]in Scotland Yard.He retired within 6 months of Charles Cutbush
He lived five streets from Charles Cutbush in Mayflower Road Clapham.Charles Cutbush lived in Burnley Road Clapham less than five minutes walk from him.
Abberline never wrote any memoirs and said very little about the case once he retired.He at one point said he thought Chapman was the ripper-but clearly didnt think that some years later when he said those looking to find him[the ripper]"would not find him at the bottom of society-but a long way up".
This connection between these two ripper police officers actual place of work ,retirement time which coincided with Thomas Cutbush"s placement at Broadmoor together with the fact that they lived so near to one another as to be neighbours makes me wonder whether Abberline actually may have known more about the Cutbush
case than most of his fellow police officers----who despite writing lengthy "memoirs" seem to have contradicted each other regarding their "prime suspect".
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2824
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 13, 2005 - 5:48 pm: |
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Good thoughts, Natalie.
As I've speculated all along, Cutbush nodded his head and then Abberline wagged his tail. |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1689
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 2:57 pm: |
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Hi Natalie
In regard to Nigel Moreland's alleged encounter with retired Inspector Fred Abberline.
Natalie, as you state, Nigel Moreland, later the editor of Criminologist, stated that when he encountered Abberline in his garden years before the former Chief Inspector's death in 1929, the former Scotland Yard detective said: "You’d have to look for [the Ripper] not at the bottom of London society at the time but a long way up."
However, note this, in June 2005, Stewart P. Evans on The Education Forum gave an opinion on this tidbit of Ripper trivia:
"There is little doubt that the tale of Nigel Morland meeting Abberline is apocryphal. Therefore we can forget any supposed comments made by Abberline to Morland in the early 1920s about the Ripper being 'one of the highest in the land', or 'not at the bottom of London society but a long way up.'"
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2590
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 3:52 pm: |
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Thanks Chris for that link.I thought as I wrote it that it somehow didnt sound quite like Abberline,who seems to have mostly kept his cards very close to his chest.
But it comes as something of a surprise to leaf through the Mepo books in Kew and see the Abberline/Cutbush names almost alongside one another in 1891/2 -both working in the "Commissioners Office" of Scotland Yard[in itself practically unique as I recall in what is a massive pension book detailing a huge number of police officers retirements] you realise how often Cutbush and Abberline must have rubbed shoulders at work between 1888 and 1891.
To then turn to the London A-Z and see how closeby they lived, both when they worked together and in their early retirement period ie the Clapham/Stockwell area of London-it presents a rather unusual set of coincidences for two such senior police officers involved in the ripper investigation.
Abberline"s silence on matter"s connected with the ripper is confirmed by Donald Rumbelow.
who found his book of press cuttings containing hand written notations in which there was NOTHING-not even press cuttings about Abberline"s two most interesting cases-the Whitechapel murders and the Cleveland Street scandal.
But there is a sort of explanation as to why he never wrote his memoirs.I won"t quote-you probably know -its all about libel and giving criminals clues as to how the police investigate...tells us nothing in other words!
Although it appears from the little money etc left in his estate at his death in 1929 Abberline"s silence and discretion was not the result of bribes it was perhaps a " golden" silence nontheless!
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2828
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 4:42 pm: |
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So Chris
should we then totally dismiss comments from Nigel Moreland?
Or perhaps use them to enforce a view when it suits us, like this chap does here:
'We might also note that the idea of Chapman as Ripper also is contradicted by the anecdotal evidence of Nigel Moreland, later the editor of Criminologist to whom Abberline stated, when interrupted by Moreland in his garden years after the Gazette interview and before the former Chief Inspector's death in 1929, ‘You’d have to look for [the Ripper] not at the bottom of London society at the time but a long way up.’ Chapman had no standing in London society so such a description would not have fitted him.
Best regards
Chris George' |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5288
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 4:52 pm: |
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Natalie, so Abberline didn't have much dosh? Maurice Moser described working with Abberline on a Russian banknote forgery case, and Moser makes clear his dissatisfaction with the reward system operating at the time. In fact, it was possible for officers to find themselves out of pocket after a case.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2592
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 5:33 pm: |
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Hi Robert,
Well-Don Rumbelow writes,"His silence on those two cases has sometimes been interpreted as meaning he was bribed to stay silent.There is no evidence for this.When he died in 1929 the value of his estate was £317 4s 10d.His wife,who died only a matter of weeks after,left a personal estate of £32 17s.3d.
The full explanation of the unwritten memoirs-which is even more irritating because of the hints of what he might have told-"[and here Don R. goes on to quote Abberline"s reasons for not writing them etc].....
... Perhaps Abberline lost his money playing the tables in Monte Carlo!
Joking aside,Robert,there seem to me to be "hints" here alright---- of an unusual and deafening silence![a bit like the catholic"s "Sins of Omission"]---I mean......why no mention of the Whitechapel murders or the Cleveland Street scandal by the man who played a leading and major part in these two cases?All the other lead figures seem to have written their memoirs..... |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5289
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 5:50 pm: |
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Hi Natalie
I too find his silence baffling. It's not as if he had to actually write about JTR or Cleveland St to get a book published - I'm sure there was a market for a book from him, and it would have given us a rounder picture of the man.
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2594
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 6:02 pm: |
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Hi Robert,
and interestingly noone has any explanation for that silence.......so far anyway
Natalie |
Stephen Thomas
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
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Hi Natalie
Blimey, you're getting heavy here, girl. In my opinion Mr. Johnny Depp, Michael Caine, Inspector Abberline was under heavy manners (a Jamaican expression I believe) not to tell tales out of school and to keep the misinformation/disinformation bandwagon rolling, which he did with his 'You've caught the Ripper at last' statement in regard to Chapman. Then a bit later he blew it when he said something like 'Yes, yes I know about this all poor Polish Jew stuff, but that's all nonsense. It was a toff what dunnit' And then after a sharp rap on the knuckles or maybe a very hard kick up the backside from the powers that be he never mentioned Jack the Ripper again. Ever. |
John Savage
Chief Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 534
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 14, 2005 - 8:49 pm: |
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Hi Natalie,
Regarding Abberline's silence on his most controversial cases, I think we have to remember that in the victorian mind, it was quite accepted that "respectable" people did not gossip about any matters which could be thought scandalous. Their attitude was often to try and sweep things under the carpet, and simply refuse to discuss matters that they may find embarrasing.
Rgds
John |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2595
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 4:02 am: |
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Hi John,
Well that arguement doesnt quite hold water actually since Walter Dew held forth over just about every important case he was involved in including Jack the Ripper and Crippen.
Sir Melville Macnaghten and Sir Robert Anderson
[both knighted too] must have enjoyed lucrative contracts to publish their "key" memoirs.
There were others too---must look it up!
Natalie |
Phil Hill
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Phil
Post Number: 1017
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 1:03 pm: |
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Natalie, I think John has a good point. The fact that others were garrulous does not mean that Abberline HAD to be. He may just have been "principled" or "old-fashioned". It's not to say he WAS, only that it is a reasonable explanation.
But maybe, just maybe, he did pen a secret manuscript which waits to be found. Amazing no novelist has yet thought to write them!!!
[The second paragraph is NOT meant seriously.]
Phil |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2596
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 2:28 pm: |
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Hi Phil,
Yes-ofcourse. But that doesnt mean that he didnt have a more-shall we say "informal" knowledge about the arrest and arraignment of a certain Thomas Cutbush !Being "discreet" doesnt contradict him having[and also withholding] such additional information does it?
Another astonishing coincidence regarding the Clapham/Stockwell neighbourhood-so popular with the Cutbush clan-is that both Messrs Cutbush and Collicit lived within a ten minute walk of Abberline too-----he may even have read accounts of their unusual " jobbing urges" in the local rag - may well have been a bit confused about the amazing contradictions in their sentencing -along with the rest of the world !
Regarding Abberline"s diaries:
Don Rumbelow writes:The reporter from the Pall Mall Gazette had found Abberline in 1903 surrounded by a sheaf of documents and newspaper
cuttings related to the case-what happened to these papers [Don muses]----"an unconfirmed rumour has it that his four notebooks or diaries [they are described as four exercise books]are in the possession of the Sickert family" --Oh No!not him again!
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5294
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 2:42 pm: |
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Abberline's brother seems to have been either a bit of a rogue (visions of Will Hay) or else very hard up. I seem to remember being told that this file will be open next year, but I may have got my wires crossed.
FAMILY WELFARE ASSOCIATION (FORMERLY CHARITY ORGANISATION SOCIETY)
Catalogue Ref. A/FWA
Creator(s):
Charity Organisation Society, 1896-1946
Family Welfare Association, 1946
[Access Conditions]
All records of the F.W.A. which are less than 60 years old, with the exception of annual reports and other publications, are closed to public consultation unless written permission for access is obtained from the Director of the Family Welfare Association.
CENTRAL OFFICE
ENQUIRY DEPARTMENT - ref. A/FWA/C/D
FILES ON INDIVIDUALS
[Access Conditions] FILES ON INDIVIDUALS ARE CLOSED TO CONSULTATION. Permission for access may be obtained from the Director of the Family Welfare Association.
FILE - Abberline, Edward and Lily (case 32932); writers of begging letters; document file and key file - ref. A/FWA/C/D/297/001 - date: 1922-1934
[Access Conditions] CLOSED
Robert |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1692
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 2:58 pm: |
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Hello AP
I am only reporting the things as they have been written by others. I am not necessarily saying I believe the Abberline - Moreland anecdote. The episode sounds fishy to me considering that Moreland apparently brought it up in the 1970's at the time of the Royal Conspiracy theory's popularity, that is, at the same time his magazine, Criminologist was publishing Stowell's article pointing to Prince Albert Victor as being the Ripper.
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2597
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 4:56 pm: |
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Hi Robert,
During the next phase of his working life-ie after retiring from Scotland Yard-he worked,as you probably know for Pinkerton"s detective agency,becoming its European representative.For three seasons we find him policing the gaming rooms in Monte Carlo.
"Going abroad" seems to have been a temporary
answer to so many "imponderables" for people in those days.
I guess poor old Druitt was encouraged to "go abroad" for a bit after all his "troubles" by the worried Valentine.
The Duke of Clarence also "went abroad"come to think of it.....just after the Cleveland Street scandal broke-so did Lord Arthur Somerset and Charles Hammond [didnt they run the place or am I mistaken?- these two to France I believe.
In fact I have read that it was due to Abberline prevaricating that important witnesses in the Cleveland club trial were able to escape to France.
He didnt do badly really,did he,dear old Abberline,-being offered early retirement at 49 and then having a few seasons "abroad" hobnobbing with all those millionaires and aristocrats in the South of France. Quite a departure this from tramping round the East End all night and every night in search of the Ripper.Extraordinary stuff!
Natalie |
David O'Flaherty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Oberlin
Post Number: 1132
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 3:20 pm: |
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Hi all,
Re: the tendency to be tight-lipped, Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Ian Blair made a speech at Shoreditch Church (I think today). In assessing a turning point in the relationship between police and public, Blair makes some references to the history of the Met and the East End. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2601
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 5:17 pm: |
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Thanks a lot for that link David.Interesting that one of the areas reflected upon and acknowledged in this very comprehensive speech ,was the historical use of "silence" rather than "communication".
Natalie |
Stephen Thomas
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 12:21 pm: |
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Hi Natalie,
You are doing some really excellent work here. I had never thought of Abberline and Charles Cutbush being close work colleagues but you have definitely established this with your fine research. And near neighbours as well in South London. I recently went down to Stockwell and Camberwell Green to take photos of the Cutbush and Collicott residences and could maybe have found Abberline's house had I known. Do you know the house number on Mayflower Road? Also your theory that Abberline was given 'cushy' jobs as a reward for keeping quiet makes a lot of sense to me. The French Riviera? Not bad for a plod from Whitechapel. Good to see here also that he probably didn't make the 'higher up in society' comment attributed to him. No telling tales out of school and tight lipped to the end.
My own starting point for looking at the JTR mystery has for a long time relied on an assumption, or basic premise if you like, that JTR was caught (or died or was 'bumped off') some time between the murders of Mary Kelly and Alice McKenzie. There is no sense at all in MM saying 'Jack the Ripper had five victims and five victims only' unless this is the case. To all intents and purposes Alice was a Ripper victim (older prostitute/same area/abdominal wounds/unknown assailant). Ditto Martha Tabram. Also note the past tense 'had' in the statement. Not the word to use in the case of a murderer who 'was never caught' and could in theory start up again any time. So IMHO practically all the 'suspects' so fervently discussed on this site and elsewhere can be dismissed entirely. I repeat, this is assuming my basic premise that JTR was caught soon after the Kelly murder. Druitt was , I believe, like Lee harvey Oswald said of himself 'just a patsy' who was for MM's purposes conveniently dead. The idea of an upper middle class solicitor/schoolteacher running about Spitalfields in the middle of the night then is to my mind simply ridiculous. Ostrog wasn't even in the country at the time of the murders and MM would certainly have known this in 1894. So why mention him? Kosminski or someone like him remains a possibility and also I don't discount a possible political dimension (Fenians, Russian secret agents or whatever) which the authorities might have wished to cover up. Even the 'unknown local man' idea, much beloved by more thoughtful Ripperolgists, doesn't hold up according to my theory because he would not have been 'unknown'. Not to the police anyway, and if he was just a local yokel he would have been Old Bailey bound quick as a flash.
Was Cutbush JTR? I don't know, of course, but of all the named candidates he seems to me to be the most likely due to all the fantastic work put in here by AP and Robert and your good self and others. And of course the series of 'Sun' articles. Unless anyone can prove that he was not incarcerated between late 1888 and early 1891 that is.
Again, super work, Natalie and apologies for a rather odd post to you recently that I wrote rather too late in the evening. Myself and AP have more than one thing in common!
Best Wishes. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2616
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, November 19, 2005 - 6:23 pm: |
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Thanks Stephen,
I am always astonished at the b*ll*cks that was written about some of the suspects.
Its even become Hollywoodised with "glamourous suspects" or suspects that were right under the noses of the cops-come on!
Even though it may be a tad uncomfortable for some to scrutinise the part played by people like Abberline/Cutbush/Anderson etc in fact the whole police investigation from start to finish as well as what they were also involved in ------
eg Irish Home Rule and the priority it had for say Anderson --over and above the care and attention he gave to the ripper investigation---
let alone the Johnny come lately Machnaghten, pontificating away in 1894 when he had never even been involved in 1888---I think he was seeing to his Tea Plantation actually.
So yes,I think this is the way through somehow
clear away the debris and obfuscation!
Abberline lived at 41 Mayflower Road,Clapham.It would be great to have a picture of his house if it still exists!
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2839
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 1:25 pm: |
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Yes, Robert & Natalie
I think Robert and myself have spent the last few years trying to pin down THC's whereabouts from 1888 to 1891 without any success; and certainly Debra and Natalie have been searching for that vital piece of information as well.
If one looks at all the information available it does appear that THC was absent from late 1888 until some time in 1891, and one assumes that he must have been confined in either a private asylum - and there are certainly reports suggesting that but sadly not confirming it - or had been hauled off down to Kent to chill out with relatives.
Robert makes the crucial point. If one could prove that THC was confined to an asylum from August to December of 1888, then we could all pack our bags and go off and study the Loch Ness monster.
But until then... THC is prime candidate.
Of course we do know the whereabouts of uncle Charles at the time of the murders, at the helm of a sinking ship called 'Scotland Yard' and steering her right onto the reefs.
I've always said that uncle Charles is the missing joker from the pack. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2626
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 1:50 pm: |
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Ap---do you mean Stephen or Robert above?
I certainly did not mean to take credit above for all the monumental work you yourself undertake
or the hours of research you, Robert and Debra have done----- over many years-digging away for anything that sets the scene for either Thomas or Charles Cutbush[or possibly both[?] to have been involved.
It was getting late-I just answered Stephen spontaneously........
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2842
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 1:55 pm: |
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Sorry, Natalie, of course I meant Stephen.
I guess I am just missing Robert.
Not at all, Natalie, you deserve much credit for your work here.
Me? My credit limit ran out a long time ago.
Keep it going. |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 1:36 am: |
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Hi Stephen,
I too believe that something happend to the ripper shortly after the Kelly murder. I have aproached the case with the believe that the ripper either, Died, was locked away, or went abroad. Suspects like Tumblety, Druitt, Kosminski, and even Chapman meet this criteria.
The number of woman the ripper actually killed is a mystery. Macnaughten claimed the ripper killed five woman and five woman only. The vitims being the accepted five. However, I think that it is clear that Abberline believed that Tabram was a ripper victim. Various detectives had different ideas on just how many woman the ripper killed. I think he killed between four and six woman. Stride may have not been a victim, and Tabram may have been a victim. I agree it was a rather sweeping statement for Macnoughten to claim the ripper only killed five woman. I feel that most detectives believed that Kelly was the killers last victim.
If Abberline had any information regarding the identity of the ripper, who else also had this knowledge. Did Charles Warren share this knowledge? Was Anderson and Swanson also aware of Abberline's secret? Did Abberline have knowledge of the killings that he kept to himself. How many people were involved in the coverup?
Anderson and Swanson clearly believed that Kosminski was the ripper. Swanson wrote down the name of Kosminski in the margins of his personal copy of Anderson's Lighter Side Of My Official life. I doubt that Swanson knew that what he had written down would ever be published in the newspaper. It would be quite a masterfull coverup for Swanson to have the insight to plant the name of Kosminski. Did he know tht someday his remarks would be published? Was this his brilliant plan to take suspicion of the true killer Cutbush? Anderson and Swanson believed that Kosminski was the ripper. If Abberline had information regarding the name of the ripper he clearly did not share that information with Anderson, or Swanson. I do not buy that idea. Unless you believe that Swanson planted the name of Kosminski to take suspicion off the real killer, you can not support the idea that Abberline knew the identity, and this information was not shared with his superiors.
I do not believe Druitt's name was ever made public. I do not believe that Macnoughten ever went public with his name. In my oppinion MM clearly believed that Druit was the ripper. However He simply calaims in a memo that Druitt,Kosminski, and ostrog were more likely suspects then Cutbush. He names the same kosminski that appears in the margines of Swanson's book. This gives weight to the argument that Anderson and Swanson believed that Kosminski was Jack the ripper, and weakends the argument that Abberline had knowledge of the rippers true identity, because he clearly would have shared the information with Swanson.
I believe that MM recieved his private information from James Monroe. I agree that any information that Macnoughten had obtained was second hand information. How crediable was the information? Anderson and Swanson clearly did not buy into the Druitt theory, and Abberline seems to dismiss Druitt in his 1903 interview. However, it is possible that Monroe kept this private information from the detectives. I have a hard time buying into this theory, but it is possible. Macnoughten claimed to have burnt the information. There lies your conspiracy. Not Abberline haveing knowledge of the killers name, but Macnoughten recieving private information that he burned.
What could this private information have been? I do not know. If it is true that Macnoughten had connected the ripper with the leader of an assasination plot of Mr. Balfour, I would assume that MM had connected Druitt with such person, or such a plot against Balfour. It is clear that Macnoughten believed that Druitt was the ripper as late as 1913. I also would assume that any information that MM had concerning an assasination plot of Balfours, Littlechild would have known, and Littlechild names Tumblety as a likely suspect. Again he names Tumblety in a private letter. He never went public with the name. Could Tumblety had known Druitt? Why would Macnoughten burn the information? Who was he protecting? He claimed he was protecting the family. If he was tryng to protect the family, then why did he mention Druitt at all? Was he trying to protect his friend Monroe? Could the information that connected Druitt to the ripper murders also be the same information that connected him to the Balfour plot? Could this information have connected Druitt to Tumblety, and by sharing this information he would embarrass his friend James Monroe? Tumblety escaped on Monroe's watch. Tumblety was arguably the most infamous ripper suspect world wide.
I think that we have detectives that had ideas about who the killer was, but there was no hard evidence against anyone. The most compelling argument against the Abberline knew who the ripper was, and he was rewarded for his silence, was the fact that he named Chapman as a suspect. He put forth an elaberate theory about organ harvesting. He said he believed that the ripper most likely went abroad, and pointed out that there were similiar murders commited in America shortly after Chapman arrived. He suggested two killers. One man hireing another man to harvest the organs. That was an elaberate thing to say, when all he had to say is no comment if he knew who the ripper really was.
If there was a coverup it went way over Abberline's head, and he had no knowledge. If you are looking for a coverup ask yourself why Macnoughten would burn any information regarding the ripper murder.
Druitt could have been inocent. Kosminski may not of had anything to do with the ripper murders. Tumblety may have been just an oddball. Chapman may have been a low life wife killer, and may not of had anything to do with the eastend murders, but all four men were named as suspects by various detectives.
Could Cutbush had been the ripper, yes, but to suggest that Abberline knew for a fact that Cutbush was the ripper, and was involved in some conspiracy to cover up Cutbush's guilt is wrong.
Your friend, Brad |
Stephen Thomas
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, November 27, 2005 - 10:58 am: |
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CB,
Hi Brad. Thanks for that very thoughtful post. You really know your stuff and I'm glad to see that you agree with my basic premise/working hypothesis/assumption that that whoever or whetever JTR might have been was known soon after the murder of Mary Kelly. On other points we shall have to differ. Abberline pointedly would not refer to or discuss the two most important cases of his career except for his Chapman and 'organ harvesting' comments which may have been his small part in a possible cover-up. The Cleveland Street scandal was absolute social and political dynamite and he kept quiet about that for obvious reasons. But why keep so quiet about the JTR case unless he had been told to? Abberline presumably knew the truth of the matter as far as I can see but what that is, who knows? I used to think that it was Kosminski and 'case closed' after reading about the Swanson marginalia but after seeing the timelines on that it seemed not so certain. But it could well be that the British establishment feared that anti-Jewish sentiment could been stirred up if it were known that JTR was Jewish. Never forget the horrendous 'pogroms' that were being carried out in Eastern Europe at that time. I'm going for Cutbush after being impressed by the work of AP Wolf, Robert, Debra, Chris and Natalie who started this thread. You would seem to favour an American gentleman, but also appear to have an open mind about this. A closed mind is a dangerous thing so good for you.
Best Wishes |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 30, 2005 - 9:45 pm: |
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Hi Stephen,
Thanks for your responce. I actually favor Druitt. I agree an open mind is important. I believe that there was no real hard evidence against anyone. However, I think MM was told something that convinced him that Druitt was the ripper. What his private information claimed we will never know.
I do not believe that the rippers true identity was known for certain. Druitt commited suicide. He was never caught. Kosminski was locked up, but he never was positively identified as the killer. Tumblety was suspected, and he fled to America. The detectives obviously did not have any hard evidence against him. I think that one the above suspects was Jack the ripper, and they were taken care of, However inspite of the fact that the detectives had there own prefered suspect. No one had the positive proof they needed to be certain. Unless MM knew information that Littlechild, Swanson, Anderson, and Abberline did not know.
Your friend, Brad |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2935
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 1:44 pm: |
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A quick note on the early retirement of Charles Henry Cutbush:
‘No policeman may retire on a pension under sixty years of age, unless on the certificate of the chief surgeon that he is unfit for duty.’
Metropolitan Police. 1889.
He did, so he must have been unfit for duty. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2699
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 1:53 pm: |
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Valuable information Ap!The plot thickens,though we need to know what his problems were.Also why Abberline was able to retire so early and what
ill health there may have been-TB like his wife?-though he lived to be over 80 so thats unlikely actually.
Natalie |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 09, 2005 - 6:42 pm: |
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Hi Natalie,
I thought Abberline resighned? That might be different then retirement. You probably could resighn any time you wanted. I could be wrong.
Your friend, Brad |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2703
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 3:30 pm: |
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Hi CB
Paul Beggs refers to Abberline"s "retirement" in 1892 and in the MEPO pension book he is down as having a pension of £206-13 shillings-4pence[per annum presumably].Whatever it was it was an early deal, as he hadnt even reached 50.
re Hugh Clarence Reeves-plain clothes detective?
I have a curious note, made while I was looking at these MEPO files back in May spotting a detective,an HC Reeves-whose name rang a bell with something I had been looking out for someone on Tumblety.
I have written down on a small record card in a note to myself:
-----found an HC Reeves but not the HL Reeves----?
and all I have written next to this is:9 June 1879>aug 1891
"Hugh Clarence Reeves"-----resigned Aug 1891
and then.......3 Burnley Road Stockwell.........!
-this ofcourse is the address of Charles Cutbush
but I have all the information relating to him
on an A4 sheet of paper and in clear detail.
I am just wondering whether this detective was staying with the Cutbushes perhaps.That might not be uncommon but if he left the force at the same time as Charles THAT would be odd surely?
Is there anyone out there who might be able to clear this up?Chris,Robert....?
Thanks
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2945
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 4:32 pm: |
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Natalie
I checked the Met's police orders site and there are no resignations, dismissals or pensioned Reeves above the rank of PC throughout the years you mention.
He could have been a city cop one supposes? |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2705
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 5:33 pm: |
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Its infuriating to have just this fragment!I havent recorded anything else about him but just possibly there wasnt that much-in some there are a lot of blanks instead of information and I assumed these concerned plain clothes detectives but he may well have been a police constable- the books that I looked at were Metropolitan Police Records of Service and ones containing the main series of pension records for the period in question-particularly Mepo 21/21.
I will add this.The man in question was referred to as HL Reeves.Joe C. ,last May, asked me to look out for him an HL Reeves on one of my several visits to Kew [which I did and Joe thanked me in his Ripperologist article]
---- I looked too when I was digging out the Cutbush Sun Reports at Collindale.Here"s what the Globe Democrat of23/11/1888 had to say about an
HL Reeves:
Kansas City
Mon 22 nov
HL Reeves,a detective of Scotland Yard,London,is in the city,speaking of the Whitechapel murders.....it went on to say that if they in London were permitted as they are elsewhere to arrest without sufficient proof,the Whitechapel Murder would have been apprehended.
He seems to have been in America the same time as Tublety but to me it looked like they were more interested in tracking Tunblety as a Fenian agent[maybe even as a British"double agent"]than they were in catching the ripper on this tracking exercise in the States.
The story was also carried in the Star [22/11/88]in New York under the heading:"Why English detectives Fail".-and compared the freedoms of the New York Police with those in London
Hope this is of some help.
It was the Cutbush address that caught my attention tonight-it may have been a mistake I made at Kew but I am pretty sure HC Reeves RESIGNED in the August of 1891 as I have circled it and placed 3 Burnley Rd Stockwell underneath the circled notes. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2946
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 6:06 pm: |
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I've checked the police orders site several times and no matter what I do I cannot get a Reeves - or Reeve - of a rank higher than PC in the time gap you seek Natalie.
However all is not lost as I'm following this obscure lead from a Reeves family website:
'Another story says there was a son, James who "was a Scotland Yard detective, spending most of his life in Algiers and Tangiers, in service to Her Majesty, Queen Victoria. He died in London. Did not marry." We have not found evidence of this man, however, he could be the reason our great grandfather used his middle name, William, as a call name by the time he married rather than the name James. It is not unusual to re-use the same first name for many children and to call them by a middle name in England. On the other hand, this James could also have been a brother to William Henry Dewhurst.... time will tell.' |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2706
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 6:43 pm: |
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I have never yet tried these search engines-they sound good!
BtW the two main books at Kew were MEPO 21/21 pensions and MEPO 4 339 register of leavers.As far as I remember the MEPO 4 339 book has very little information in it,its just lots of names and HC Reeves is in this book I think-cant understand why I have"nt wriiten in his number----maybe he didnt have one-a secret agent/Ireland maybe? |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2708
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 4:39 am: |
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Come to think of it there were numerous double agents at the time Thomas Beach alias Le Caron was just the tip of the iceberg....so given Cutbush's fierce hatred of all' Papists"he too might have been engaged in such undercover activities from time to time and H C Reeves and Charles Cutbush could have been one and the same!......just a thought Ap,just a thought! |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2947
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 12:59 pm: |
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Natalie, I don’t know about that, but what I do know is that if you go back a little in time to the famous ‘Miss Cass Case’ - which very much involved Cutbush and other senior officials at Scotland Yard trapped in a mire of falsehood and being subject to Parliamentary debate and investigation - there is an interesting little connection to the name Reeves.
The crux of the matter was that information had been passed to the police by the manager of a jewellery store, several times, strongly indicating that Miss Cass was a working prostitute, and acting on his information Miss Cass was arrested and charged.
Problem was, that when the case came to court the manager just disappeared from the world stage never to be seen again; and much was made by the defence of this; and when one reads the reports carefully the implication of the defence is that this so-called ‘manager of a jewellery store’ was in fact an undercover Metropolitan police detective who had organised some kind of ‘honey trap’ which had dreadfully backfired on him.
Press investigations into this man show a total confusion and muddle, and I strongly suspect that the defence implication was in fact correct.
The man’s name was Reeves.
Perhaps he went to America shortly after this debacle? |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2710
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 2:24 pm: |
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Interesting Ap.Just for the record there were several Reeves in the pension book viz
Edwin William Reeves rank PS joined 8/01/66
PC Edwin Reeves no of warrant 46829
rank of certificate 3
no of docs.=2
joined18/12/65
date of removal 8
Date of cert.sent to division 10/2/92
PCFrank Reeves Div P 73975 Class 3
cert RP
__ _ _ _ _ _
joined 19/11/88
Date of removal 5
Charles W Reeve rank 3
Dismissed
_------joined27.02.88
removed 20
K division 74428
[and a number of blanks where with others there is more information.]
Then there is another PC William Reeves 68983
joined 3,3.84 [an isolated no 27]
Dismissed
There was no other information than this on them in the book I got this information from but other books could have it!
The information above came from Mepo 4 339 [I think I am correct here].
Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2711
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 2:29 pm: |
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ps re Charles W Reeve of K division, K = whitechapel
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2950
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 4:46 pm: |
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Yes, Natalie, there are any number of Reeves serving in the Met at the time, but none of them seem to fit the bill as it were.
Your mention of Thomas Beach/le Caron reminds me of his complaint in his memoirs that some highly placed official in Scotland Yard or the Home Office sent an English detective over to Chicago in an obvious attempt to blow his deep cover.
Beach was not impressed and scolds who ever it was who employed a Scotland Yard detective to do a real detective’s job.
Now I wonder who the official was and I wonder who the Scotland yard detective was? |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2714
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 11, 2005 - 6:52 pm: |
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Will have to think about that one Ap.All the Ripper Investigation chief cops were involved in
Irish issues too,to some greater or lesser extent,ofcourse.But Monro is the man whose marinalia I would really bet on ,as solving the ripper stuff.On the other hand Monro was Littlechild"s boss so.....he IS very important indeed in it all!
However I was impressed to discover that despite being a great friend of Macnaghtens who helped Monro whenever he could, he seems to have had a change of heart at the end of his emminent Secret Service career and left without any of the usual honours ----having been the opposite for example of Abberline whose policy ,during the the Cleveland Street scandal was to turn a blind eye at certain opportune moments. Monro ,by contrast, had aquired enemies in high places by over zealously persuing some of the aristocratic baccarat playing members of that club.It was also believed by some even then apparently,that the Whitechapel murderer had friends in high places too[and that perhaps Monro might start pursuing him with the same zeal ?]but it wasnt to happen, for to the enormous relief of almost all those around him, he quit in 1890. He told his son it was because he had refused to "do wrong".
Matthews though,then home secretary had asked his secretary,Evelyn Ruggles-Brise to,"stimulate the police about the Whitechapel Murders.Monro might be willing to give a hint to the CID people if necessary".But Monro,sitting on his "Hot Potato" appears to have decided against it.
Instead he left to work as a missionary in a wilderness and write about a "Second Coming".
I will think on about your question Ap-curious stuff all this! |
CB
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, December 10, 2005 - 5:48 pm: |
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Hi Natalie,
Thanks for your responce. There is an interesting newspaper article, at the casebook. East London Observer, June 1892 The article discusses Abberline's retirement. He got a nice send off.
I am a bit confused. I have read that he resighned. At the end of Cain's Jack the ripper the narrator says Abberline left the police force. Here at the casebook they use the word resighned. However, I think you are right. He retired.
Your friend, Brad |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2716
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 12, 2005 - 6:10 pm: |
|
Hi Brad,Anyway he left!
Monro left too,just before Cutbush.Conspiracies to the right of him conspiracies to the left of him
Monro took self imposed exile!So did Abberline.Poor old Supt.Cutbush took a different kind of leave altogether----from his senses by the sound of things....
Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2717
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 13, 2005 - 4:57 pm: |
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Ap,I notice in the "Fenian Fire" book that Winston Churchill threatened Sir Robert Anderson
with "reducing his pension" if he continued to go to press confessing to the Times articles that it was he[Anderson]who had written "framing" Parnell for his role in the Phoenix Park Murders/links with conspirators etc.When one of the reporters asked Winston Churchill if they should treat the scoop as one of "Anderson"s little Fairy tales"Winston apparently beamed and replied,"I could not have put it better myself".
Fascinating the skulduggery that went on in those troubled times!
I mention it here because I seem to recall that Charles Cutbush had a big fight with them all over his pension----isnt that so?If so,had he too perhaps been threatened with a "reduced Pension"----and if so why?
Natalie |
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