Author |
Message |
John Savage
Inspector Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 492 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 6:58 am: |
|
Hi Robert, The same thought had occurred to me, and I am guessing that there was a reason for the rather odd looking amount. As I am sure you will know the sum of 13s. 4d. is exactly two thirds of a pound, so therefore the amount is an exact division of some larger, possibly annual amount. I am not sure what or where or why just yet, but any observations from anyone would be welcome. Howard, Thank the lord you are safely across the water, I am flattered that you should want to hug me, but I do bruise easily! Rgds John |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5019 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 8:15 am: |
|
Hi John Well, if it was quarterly, then multiplying it by 4 will still not give a whole number. Maybe the sum was to be paid over a fixed number of years, then it might come to a whole number. Or maybe RDS was getting a third share of something - perhaps there were two surviving siblings? Of course, there's always the possibility that the numbers had some occult and mystical significance..... Robert |
John Savage
Inspector Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 493 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 4:27 pm: |
|
Hi Robert, Yes, I like the idea of it being a third share of something, good thought, thanks very much. Rgds John |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner Username: Howard
Post Number: 1011 Registered: 7-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 7:30 pm: |
|
Robert and John: Do me a favor...Please tell me what this "bob" stuff is. What does 13s 4d and bob mean ? I'm hip to "s" probably referring to shilling...right? What is a shilling equivalent to in American money? Is it like a nickel or a dime? Same thing with the "d"...whats that? ...and don't forget the bob.. Numismatically Challenged in Pa. How Brown Owner JTR Forums.com
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5029 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 12:25 am: |
|
Hi How A bob is simply a shilling. The letter "s" stands for shilling and "d" stands for pence (old pence, that is). There were 240 pennies in the pound, 12 pennies in a shilling, and 20 shillings in a pound. Half a crown was two shillings and sixpence. I will leave John to compute the value of a shilling in US money. Robert |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner Username: Caz
Post Number: 2133 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 9:56 am: |
|
Hi Howie, And before you ask why a d should stand for a p (like men do - stand for a p, I mean), I think d is for 'denarius' - a Roman coin. But "I'm freezing my threepennies off and need to spend a denarius" sounds a bit poncy and doesn't have the same ring to it. Love, Caz X |
John Savage
Inspector Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 494 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 4:24 pm: |
|
Hi Howard, This amount of 4s (four shillings)per week would not be a sufficient sum of money for anyone to live on. Remember that a bed in a doss house was 4d. (fourpence) a night, so this 4s would have paid for 12 nights accomodation in a doss house. To try and compare this amount to US Dollars is difficult, but let me try. 1s. is one twentieth of a pound, one twentieth of a dollar is 5 cents. Multiply that by four = 20 cents. If the rate of exchange was about 4 dollars to the pound (and I am only guessing)then we are talking about 80 cents. What would 80 cents have bought in the US during 1903? Not a lot I suspect. Hope this helps. Rgds John |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner Username: Howard
Post Number: 1012 Registered: 7-2004
| Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 4:32 pm: |
|
Thanks for...confusin' me more,toots !! Whats this poncy? Is that like a half-dollar or maybe two bits,which is a quarter ? I'm used to our terminologies which make so much obvious sense ...like half a buck,fin,yard,g,large,sawbuck,a deuce[ which is a two dollar bill ] and the three dollar bill,which is the local currency in Tulsa, Oklahoma . I appreciate the explanations from all of yez... So...do you think that this ledger displays a regular payment to RDS,folks? Johnny..Just caught your post. 80c [ 6 bits and a nickel ] would probably get you tanked in a saloon [and 2 packs of cigarettes] back in 1903. Do you now think that this may be some other sort of payout and perhaps not to Sudden Death at all? (Message edited by howard on September 22, 2005) How Brown Owner JTR Forums.com
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5032 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 4:44 pm: |
|
How, it's too early to say until John's research is completed. Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5033 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 4:49 pm: |
|
How, you edited your post while I was posting mine! Re your last question, it may be that the fact that it changes over to A Stephenson means that R d Stephenson died, and the money was then paid to his widow. I don't know. Let's see what John comes up with. Robert |
John Savage
Inspector Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 495 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 6:01 pm: |
|
Howard, You ask "Do you now think that this may be some other sort of payout and perhaps not to Sudden Death at all?" The simple answer is that I am not sure, but if I can link Donston to this family at Hull Bridge, then it would be more than likely to be payments to him, only time and further research is going to answer the question. I am hoping to be back at the University next Tuesday, so more then. In the meantime I did also copy one page of a bank book that gives us better information, which I post below. Robert, Good thought about the widow Anne, do you recall the year that sudden death caught up with our man?
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5046 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 6:12 pm: |
|
John, RDS was 1916, so if this is a widow it's not RDS's. Also I think Anne Deary died 1896. Robert |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner Username: Howard
Post Number: 1017 Registered: 7-2004
| Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 6:55 pm: |
|
John: Robert's correct. The death cert. was found by Nina Thomas and is on the thread "Fate of Anne Deary". Its dated 1896.... .... How Brown Head Honcho, www.JTR Forums.com
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5047 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 8:24 am: |
|
John, I don't know if this helps : General Directory of Kingston-upon-Hull and York, 1851. Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5048 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 9:09 am: |
|
John, there are far too many Stephensons! I'm not totally sure, but I think that John might be the Old Boy. I think I've found his son John in the census - which would be the John you're investigating now - and his son James, whom he went into partnership with. I think your John was born around 1837 and James around 1864. Might be a pile of crap though. Robert |
John Savage
Inspector Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 496 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 9:31 am: |
|
Hi Robert, Thanks for that entry from the General Directory Kingston Upon Hull 1851.There are some interesting connections here as we have an Rt Stephenson & son Brewers as well as an R Stephenson & Son Seed Crushers. I wonder if the brewer Stephenson supplied the beer to the Crown and Anchor Pub? (still exists I am glad to say). Also interesting that the Hull Bridge site had a malthouse, which is more to do with brewing than seed crushing. If I were you I should not worry too much about tracing the family tree, I think the files I have found will probably tell us that. But if you find any more on the Rt Stephenson above, that may be interesting. Rgds John |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5049 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 11:24 am: |
|
John, I've been looking, and I think I've found the brewer (or at least, one of them). It seems that it might well lead back to Robert Ranby Stephenson - he could have been into crushing and brewing. I will try and sort it out. There are too many Stephensons. Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5050 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 1:01 pm: |
|
There is a Robert R Stephenson, brewer and maltster employing 10 men, lodging at the home of Harry Adams in 1871. He is age 32. Address, Saturday Market, Beverley St Mary. In 1881 he is living with his sister Susan, 36, at Nth Bar St without, Beverley St Mary. In 1891 he is with brothers James, 49, and Arthur, 38, at Nth Bar St without. James and Arthur are oil seed crushers. The IGI lists James Stephenson born 24 Dec 1841 St Mary and St Nicholas, Beverley. Parents John Stephenson and Elizabeth. Arthur Stephenson born 17 Jan 1853 St Mary and St Nicholas, Beverley, parents John Stephenson and Elizabeth. Robert Ranby Stephenson born St John and St Martin, Beverley 16 June 1838 parents John and Elizabeth. In 1861 Robert's address seems to be Hull Bridge, living with younger brother Richard 17 and father John 59, merchant, widower. His occupation is still brewer and maltster. This worried me because I was expecting to find a Robert Stephenson brewer with father Robert Stephenson brewer. But maybe Robert Stephenson and Son was just the name of the company, harking back to some earlier brewer called Robert Stephenson? Perhaps also John Stephenson father of Robert was also the father of the John Stephenson whom John is researching. Robert
|
John Savage
Inspector Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 497 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 7:54 pm: |
|
Hi Robert, Thanks for this very useful information. I have previously dug out information on Robert Ranby, and he was indeed a brewer, but also his entry in the probate register lists him as a seed crusher, together with other information I am satisfied that he is part of the Beverley and Hull Bridge family of seed crushers. What we really need is a connection between anyone of these people to the Stephensons of Hull. I have posted information on this thread earlier about Robert Ranby, and have even included a picture of his house. Rgds John |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5055 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 9:48 am: |
|
Thanks John. I think the evidence for the connection is very strong, but if we can't finally nail it with census, IGI etc research then ordering a few wills ought to do it. Enter Howerd with wallet open. Robert |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner Username: Howard
Post Number: 1023 Registered: 7-2004
| Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 10:13 am: |
|
Did someone say "wallets open" ? Here I iz... Thats a no-brainer...I'll be glad to supply the bobs and deanuses and the shrillings and poncys and pounds. The latter I can sure afford to lose. I'll contact both of you through e-mail about the costs. How Brown Prop. WWW.JTRForums.com
|
John Savage
Inspector Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 498 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 6:56 pm: |
|
Hi All, Sometime ago Chris Scott found some details of William Hugh Stephenson of Beverley, and I have found in the Hull Daily Mail a report of his wedding in 1902 to Miss Ethel Hearsfield. Unfortunately I cannot post the original here as I am unable to reduce it to an acceptable size. However it appears to have been quite an occassion, and amongst those present to witness the ceremony were: Dr. Stephenson (father of the bridegroom), Mr and Mrs. Stephenson, Mr. and Mrs. A Stephenson, Messrs. Robert and James Stephenson and many others well known in East Riding society. The bride's wedding dress was a gift from Mrs. Clapham, and Madame Clapham (to give her the professional name) was a locally well known dressmaker who supplied dresses for society figures and also crowned heads of Europe. Rgds John. |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner Username: Howard
Post Number: 1028 Registered: 7-2004
| Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 7:03 pm: |
|
"Robert and James Stephenson and many others well known in East Riding society..." Dear Johnny.....Is that part that I have underlined how it is written in the write up verbatim??? Another good find ! How Brown Prop. WWW.JTRForums.com
|
John Savage
Inspector Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 499 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 7:44 pm: |
|
Hi Howard, That is not exactly how it is written in the article as I have left out one or two names that did not seem to be of any interest to us. As these two are reffered to as "Messrs. Robert and James Stephenson" I think it likely that they are the young sons of one of the Stephenson families. I have e mailed you the full article. And now for something cokpletely different. You will remember that sometime ago I posted a picture of Oak House, North Bar Within, Beverley, the home of Robert Ranby Stephenson. Well a couple of hundred yards up the street is a large house or block of houses, the plaque over the porch reads "Stephenson Terrace 1883". I am not sure if it has anything to do with Robert Ranby or any of the other Stephensons we are looking at, but I took a photograph and here it is.
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5058 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 7:45 pm: |
|
Yes, great find, John. These people were very prominent figures, by the sound of it. Just about all the crowned heads of Europe were men, weren't they? What were they doing in dresses??? Robert |
John Savage
Inspector Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 500 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 7:58 pm: |
|
Thanks for that Robert, an unfortunate term of phrase on my part, I was of course thinking of the wives and daughters. Now you have got me wondering if Prince Eddy ever came up to Hull for a fitting! Rgds John |
John Savage
Chief Inspector Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 504 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 8:41 pm: |
|
Hi All, Further research at the Brynmor Jones Library, has confirmed that the brewers Robert Stephenson & Sons of Beverley were part of the same family as the seed crushers of Hull Bridge. I found a lease dated 1904 between Robert Ranby Stephenson, William Hugh Stephenson and Arthur Stephenson on the one part and Arthur Stephenson [the same] and Maurice Jewel Stephenson on the other part for the premises at Hull Bridge including the seed crushing mill and local public house. This as a result of the death of John Stephenson of Beverley and in accordance with his will of 17th. May 1901. From other documents I was able to confirm that Hull Bridge House also was the home of the late John Stephenson. It is also seems that the family were land owners, owning farms and cottages in the area of Lund, a small village about 5 miles from Beverley. I drove out to Lund and a quick look around the church yard confirmed that there is a family burial plot for a family called Stephenson. Below is a photograph of the public house called the Crown and Anchor, and to the right is Hull Bridge House
|
John Savage
Chief Inspector Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 511 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 8:16 pm: |
|
Hi All, 16 JOHN STREET, HULL Earlier in this thread I have made mention of a Richard Stephenson, glue manufacturer who lived at this address in 1871. As John Street runs off Charles Street, were Donston was born, I decided to take a closer look at this address. John Street appears to have been built in the early 19th. Century, probably about 1822, however on a map dated 1856 there is one plot which remains vacant, this is the site of number 16, so I conclude that the house was built sometime between 1856 –1871. The house still remains and from the architecture it is clearly of a later period than the rest of the street. Robert Linford kindly provided details of the occupants of this house, and confirmed that a Richard Stephenson is listed in 1871. (Although I am unsure if this is the father or son.) In 1881 the occupant is George Bower, born London, minister Christ Church, plus family, also staying with him was Elizabeth A Lord, whom we know from Richard senior’s will to be his daughter. In 1891 the occupant is Joseph Hewlett, HM Customs, born Hull, plus family, and at No. 15 was William Stephenson, timber merchant, plus family, born Grantham, Lincolnshire. In 1901 the occupant is one Edward Ripper and family, whilst William Stephenson still lives at No. 15. As number 16 is no more than 50 yards from the junction with Charles Street, and we have a clear connection in Elizabeth A Lord, I feel sure that this must have been a later address for the family. In the picture below No. 16 is the green gabled house, and Charles Street can be seen to the left of the picture.
|
John Savage
Chief Inspector Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 512 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Friday, October 14, 2005 - 8:20 pm: |
|
Hi All, Just to complete things, here is a picture taken in Charles Street, showing the junction with John Street. I wonder if Mr. Ripper ever drank in the New Clarence pub?
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5148 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 4:30 am: |
|
John, thanks for that. Those houses look in excellent condition. Bit of a misunderstanding here : Elizabeth A Lord was at Spring St with the Stephensons in 81, not John St with the Bowkers. However, I think there was quite possibly a continuing link, because the two subsequent occupants had occupations connected to those of the family : minister and customs. The Stephenson at John St in 71 was the Senior. The Junior was with Anne Deary. Robert |
John Savage
Chief Inspector Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 514 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 7:42 am: |
|
Hi Robert, Thanks for clearing that up, I am afraid I misunderstood what you wrote to me. However if Richard senior was living here in 1871, then it must clearly have been the family home and I think shows that the family would have been middle class tradespeople, not stinking rich but not poor either. Any chance you could find an 1861 census, and see who (if anyone) is listed? Rgds John |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5151 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 8:48 am: |
|
Hi John In 1861 at 16 John St is Nicholas Osbourne (and family) retired customs clerk. The numbering goes 16, 20, 21, 22... Robert |
John Savage
Chief Inspector Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 515 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 3:25 pm: |
|
Hi Robert, Thanks for looking that up, it seems that this house was popular with employees of HM Customs, I suppose there must be a reason, perhaps we shall find out. Rgds John |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5152 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 3:42 pm: |
|
John, could HM Customs have owned the house, putting various employees into it in the same way the C of E does with vicars? Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5154 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 4:21 pm: |
|
Oh no! I spoke too soon. I've just had a look at Kelly's Hull directory for 1904, and at 16 John St was Rev. Thomas Roberts, vicar of Christ Church. Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5155 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 6:03 pm: |
|
And another vicar : Rev. Arthur Henderson Huntley, vicar of Christ Church (Kelly's Directory of N & E Ridings of Yorkshire, 1913. [Part 2: York & Hull]) Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5156 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 7:53 pm: |
|
We can place Mr Osbourne there as early as 1851, from a directory. Robert |
John Savage
Chief Inspector Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 516 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 5:26 am: |
|
Hi Robert, Thanks for all this information, I am sure I don't quite know what to make of it all at the moment, a selection of customs officers and clerics, I( had the same thing happen a few years ago when I was investigating the Hull connections of Lewis Carroll. The only thing that worries me is the reference you have found for 1851, as the map I looked at for 1856 shows the plot to be vacant. Ah well. John |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5185 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 5:33 am: |
|
John, it gets worse, if this is the same John St. JUNE 21st 1887 Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5186 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 6:47 am: |
|
Perry's lists partnership dissolved between Robert Dawber and Richard Stephenson, bone and seed merchants and crushers, Kingston upon Hull, July 31st 1843. Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5187 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 8:13 am: |
|
Wasn't there a Cremers or Cassini from St Petersburg? Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5195 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 1:38 pm: |
|
Miss Benson seems to have run a boarding house in St Petersburg before returning to England and running a hotel in Mansfield St, Portland Place in 1855. Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5196 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 2:07 pm: |
|
I think she was living next door to Donston's dad in 1881. She at 46, he at 48, Spring St. Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5197 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 2:31 pm: |
|
If this is the right Elizabeth Benson, then not only did she have a St Petersburg connection, but she seems to have been a rich old lady. I wonder if Donston got his hands on any of it. 46 Spring St Elizabeth Benson, unmarried, 77, income derived from dividends, born Sunderland Barbara Benson, unmarried, niece, 38, income derived from dividends, born Sunderland plus one servant. Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5198 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 3:39 pm: |
|
She seems to have got into financial trouble in 1856 - she and Sarah Benson (probably a sister) were in Perry's that year. Robert |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner Username: Howard
Post Number: 1087 Registered: 7-2004
| Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 5:42 pm: |
|
Robert: Yes there was a Cremers from St.Petersburg. Some guy named Robert Charles Linford found this information on this URL [ its on the Cremers thread....] ../4922/18702.html"#DEDDCE"> |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5200 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 6:19 pm: |
|
Hi How. I don't think it was me. Anyways, I think when the wallet creaks open, Miss Benson's will ought to be one of the things we have a look at. Robert |
John Savage
Chief Inspector Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 518 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 6:55 pm: |
|
Hi Robert, More interesting information, thanks for posting. As far as I know there was only one John Street in Hull, but I shall try to check if there may have been another. It may be worth noting that Sunderland, birth place of Elizabeth Benson, is only about 10 miles from Newcastle upon Tyne, the home of Rev. Samuel Lord, who was executor of Richard Stephenson, the father of Donston. I shall try to consult the national probate calendars next week to see if there is a record of Miss Benson's will. Rgds John |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner Username: Robert
Post Number: 5202 Registered: 3-2003
| Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 7:02 pm: |
|
Thanks John. I dare say the niece got most of it, but I wonder if Donston had an allowance before/after her death. Robert |
John Savage
Chief Inspector Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 520 Registered: 2-2003
| Posted on Monday, October 31, 2005 - 7:35 pm: |
|
Hi Robert, From the National Probate Calendars 1887 "Benson Elizabeth. 30 November. The will with two codicils (the second codicil being contained in writings A and B) of Elizabeth Benson late of 16 John Street in the Borough of Kingston upon Hull spinster who died 18 June 1887 at Kingston upon Hull was proved at York by William Gray of 16 John Street Merchant's Clerk the surviving executor. Estate £1,620 2. 3d." It is interesting to note that in Melvin Harris book "The True Face of JTR" an Edwin Gray "timber merchant Hull" superintended the landing of the wounded Donston at Flamborough. Rgds John |