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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 764
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 10:49 pm: | 
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This really is a thread where we could use the help of an LVP social historian. Failing that, perhaps someone like Jane Coram (who grew up in Whitechapel and whose family lived there in 1888) might help. Are you there Jane?
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1914
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 5:54 am: |
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Guys,
Like Glenn, Im being a lazy git, forgive me or shoot me.
OK, confession time. I have visited brothels masquerading as massage parlours......all in the line of duty.....honest.
Higher class joint the girls make the effort. Lower class there is little effort. It all depends on the punters preference and how affluent they are.
As Mike states, effort is made by the girls but how much effort depends on the girls priority (drink/drugs or earning more) and (sorry to say) natural beauty.
As for the punters Im sure the priority in Victorian times, and today I may add, is cleanliness as opposed to how dolled up they are.
As crude as it sounds...a hole is a...
Monty
My prediction? 3-0 to us. 5-0 if the weather holds out. - Glenn McGrath
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john wright
Police Constable
Username: Ohnjay
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 7:09 am: |
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Hi to all,
After posting a reply earlier about the use of hairdressers by prostitutes I've decided to become registered and join in the debates.
I accept that the higher class whores working in brothels in the west end would be looked after by the madams i.e clean clothes Regular baths powdered and perfumed and there hair tittivated.
The lower down the scale you go the less money they earn the less they have to spend on these types of things.
The lowest types like the victims would spend very little if any on there hair, I think it more likely that they would tart each others hair up maybe borrow a dress or such but visiting hairdressers I believe would be out of the question.
As an after thought do we know how many hairdressing salons there were in Whitechapel as opposed to Barbers.
John |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4105
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 8:42 am: |
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Hi all,
I think Mr Wright (welcome, John!) is the one who actually comes closest to the real thing here, in my opinion.
I have studied the lives of hundreds of destitute, low class prostitutes around the turn of the century 1900 and written a book partly based on those studies (although the location is Scandinavia), and in my experience I can't agree with the notion that the low class prostitutes shouldn't have cared - or their customers, for that matters.
Like today, low class street prostitutes of the day were quite careful about how they looked, and they knew that it was important for them to attract as many customers as possible - and the more better customers, the better.
Their problem was that they had no money or means to invest in make up or going to the hairdresser etc. - they usually did their own hair or took turns on helping each others - but it was very important for them to keep as clean as attractive in the best way they could, even if they were drunkards and out of money. Even if most of their customers were drunkards as well and of lower middle class, these prostitutes always had a hope to get better customers.
Let's take Polly Nichols, for example, and her talk about her new 'jolly bonnet'.
Now this is clearly an indication of, that she knew - or at least hoped - that this item should make her look smarter and attract more customers.
So all I am saying is, stating that they didn't care, is completely wrong.
However, they probably didn't have much financial means to do much about it, since their main priorities were to get money for booze and a roof over their head, or food.
But that doesn't mean that these things weren't important to them. They were desperate to attract as many customers as possible, and they certainly were aware of the importance of apparence.
But no -- I don't think they wasted the little money they scraped together on going to the hairdresser's (if that is the point of this particular discussion).
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on October 04, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5108
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 9:36 am: |
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Just looking at the other side of the coin : if I were an East End barber/hairdresser, and my clientele were very poor, I might be tempted to tout for trade by going round their lodging-houses. I might be able to do them quite cheaply, provided I were able to get plenty of customers at one go.
In this way, I might even have met all the victims at one time or another.
Glenn, did you find this going on in Sweden - hairdressers turning up at lodging-houses, looking for business?
Robert |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4106
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 9:49 am: |
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Hi Robert,
No, I couldn't find any records of that. I would guess that it was well known that people living in the doss house would have very little money to pay for the services, unless for a special occasion or a Sunday or holiday. Even if you set your prices low. But this has to be speculations on my part. Still, of course, one can't rule it out.
I would assume that maybe some of the other guests in the doss house might have been good with the barber tools and the scissors and tried to make some extra doss from it by offering it to his or her fellow lodgers in there, maybe in exchange for a drink or another service in return. I think that might be a more plausible suggestion, rather than a professional barber popping his head in there for work.
Let it also be noted, that the doss house phenomenon wasn't as common in the big cities of Scandinavia as it was in London, although similar 'shelters' did exist.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on October 04, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 115
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 9:52 am: |
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Robert,
Exactly my point! It wouldn't have been a prissy salon set-up. It would have been more solicitive in nature.
Think of the constant exasperation of the hairdresser. He is cheated out of money now and then. He listens to these haggard wretches as they go on about the dirty foreigners and Jews who run down the country, not realizing or caring that the man who is cutting their hair, and who is disgusted by them, is a Polish Jew and so has been doubly derogated against.He is deep in the sh*t of their existence. He has to keep the game face on all the time just to make a buck. I think about my one trip to Jamaica (never again!), and the constant badgering by locals who want to braid your hair or give hot oil massages, not to mention drugs, and how often they get turned down, and even how angry they get, as if bullying will get one to change one's mind. Yet in Whitechapel, these aren't polite tourists. They are filthy, crass, drunken, uneducated whores who someone with possibly a technical education is forced to cater to.
Would he not visit the pubs to have a drink as so many men did, and see some of these women, and revisit the anger and the humiliation?
This is a stretch, but not much of one.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 285
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 11:43 am: |
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I agree with Glenn's above statement... I think they were concerned about their appearance, but probably did their own hair.
In any case, I am not terribly interested in this discussion, as it is centered on whether or not the victims may have visited a barbershop or salon where Kosminski worked. This type of speculation has it's place I suppose.
However, to me it would be much more relevant to get back to the previous topic: what exactly does it mean that Kosminski was a "hairdresser". I posted some quotes in which it is not clear to me whether a hairdresser was actually different from a barber. Given Kosminski's age and poverty it is highly unlikely (if not impossible) that Kosminski was the proprieter of any shop. It is more likely that he was in the employ of a Barber, probably as a "haircutter". It is not clear to me whether Kosminski's occupation as "hairdresser" actually means he cut women's hair exclusively, or whether hairdresser is actually synonimous with "haircutter". To me, the second option is more likely.
I imagine that Kosminski was employed by a barber, at a barbershop, as a haircutter. Whether or not he cut the hair of any of the victims is somewhat beside the point in my opinion.
I would be interested in hearing from someone who could describe the working environment of an east end barbershop or hairdressing salon in the 1880s.
Rob H |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1482
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 1:26 pm: |
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Rob
It is more likely that he was in the employ of a Barber, probably as a "haircutter". It is not clear to me whether Kosminski's occupation as "hairdresser" actually means he cut women's hair exclusively, or whether hairdresser is actually synonimous with "haircutter". To me, the second option is more likely.
I'm not sure whether this is relevant, but in some orthodox varieties of Judaism I think women's hair has to be kept covered.
Does anyone know whether the immigrant Jewish community in London in the 1880s would have viewed it as acceptable for one of their number to cut women's hair, whether his customers were Jews or Gentiles?
Chris Phillips
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 116
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 4:02 pm: |
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Rob,
We have already determined, without question that a barber-surgeon profession no longer existed as of, by the latest 1800. We have also determined that a Feldscher is a field medical assistant and was not a cutter of hair. I believe we also covered that the term 'barber' related to the cutting of mens' hair, shaving and some skin care.
I agree that hairdresser has been used somewhat as a catchall. Kosminski was called a hairdresser. If he was actually a barber, I think this would have been stated, instead of the more vague hairdresser. Regardless, the functions are similar, meaning neither a hairdresser, nor a barber would have expertise in surgery, nor any rudimentary medical experience except with regards to skin care in the barber's case, and scalp care for both professions.
What we have then, unquestionably, is a person who cut hair and did not practice surgery, of any sort as a component of his particular profession. If AK was the ripper, and his being the ripper required some medical knowledge (a debatable point, of course), then we have to look elsewhere for his expertise, perhaps to an apprenticeship in Poland.
I think that is where we sit with AK, and that is a good place to be at this point in time.
Cheers,
PS. Did you get my email? Oh, and the Professor I contacted had no idea about any of this feldscher stuff, nor any suggestions where to look. She asked her colleagues and no great insights came from them either. She did find it all fascinating and her last name was Kaminsky.
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 288
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 5:19 pm: |
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Mike,
I am not entirely sure I agree with your summary. The barber-surgeon's guild was apparently dissolved in England at some point before the 18oo's, and this led to the decline of barber-surgeons, at least in bigger cities. I do not necessarily think this means there were no longer barber-surgeons elsewhere. For example, as I stated before, the barber surgeon was still around in the American military at least up until the war of 1812. Also, the feldscher was apparently some sort of barber surgeon in Russia, as some of the definitions for feldscher say barber-surgeon, others say medical assistant. Therefore, I do not think in any way this means that Kosminski could not have been trained as a feldsher (barber-surgeon) in Poland, nor that this would have been inconsistent with his becoming a haircutter in England. I think he may have had some training in haircutting and surgery in Poland. The profession of Feldsher was clearly around up until the 20th century at least.
What I am trying to do is get some explication for Sims' statement that Kosminski worked at a hospital in Poland. And I do not think anyone ever really addressed my earlier posts in which I quoted sources that seemingly used the words hairdresser and barber interchangeably. That point is still not very clear to me.
RH
(Message edited by robhouse on October 04, 2005) |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 289
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 5:36 pm: |
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Feldsher (Russian/Cyrillic: Ôåëüäøåð) (or feldsheritsa for females) was the name of medical auxiliaries that provided many medical services in the Soviet Union, mainly in rural areas. Trained in technical schools for shorter periods of time, they were supposed to work on preventive work and refer most serious cases to higher-level institutions. Feldsher actually means barber, and was based on the surgeons-barbers in the Russian Army going back to the 1600s.
from Wikipedia |
Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 168
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 5:55 pm: |
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Baron Von Zipper
There are a lot of different circumstances that decide whether or not I go to the hairdresser,which no doubt applies to most women.
1. Consider the type of hair one has, straight, natural curly or wavey, thick or thin,hard to handle or easy, frizzy or smooth.
2. How much extra money does one have in order to go and get done what we want. Hairdressers can be very pricy.
3. Is there a special occasion coming up?
4. Would we prefer for someone else to do our hair, or do we prefer to do it ourselves.Some of us have a natural ability to look after hair, ours or others, I do.
5. Do we only go when we want to get special treatment, eg, streaks, color change or just touch up that grey.Or maybe go to have a whole new look.
6. Are we from the pampered society who are used to having everything done for us.
7. Are we just too lazy to tend to our own hair therefore we go on a regular basis and have someone else do it.
8. Does our job dictate a certain look that warrants professional grooming, eg: model, actress etc etc?
9. Are we too cheap to pay for these type of services?
10. Have we found a hairdresser that we trust with our hair?
This doesn't cover all, however it is sure something to think about.
In my FEMALE way of thinking and having not just years of experience with hairdressers, I was and still am talented at hairdressing, even though I never took any courses for same,I am inclined to believe that these ladies did not go to hairdressers.
regards
Julie
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 117
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 5:57 pm: |
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Rob,
Feldscher means Field Barber. It comes from Feld Scherer, meaning someone who cuts something on the battlefield. That is the literal translation, but not the intention. It is a throwback to the old Barber-Surgeon, but the real German translation is Wundarzt, meaning a doctor(in this case a 'tender') of wounds. The Feldscher was not a cutter of hair. I realize you like the idea of AK being an old time barber-surgeon, but that wasn't the case. They no longer existed. I totally concur on your information on what a feldscher did, and it fits AK's scenario. He would have learned his haircutting skills elsewhere. It was not part of feldscher training except perhaps shaving for surgery or something like that, and for that, perhaps he had some early, rudimentary training for that purpose.
We agree so much on this guy. I also believe he was a feldscher and a hairdresser. I just believe the training was separate.
The barber/hairdresser thing. Hairdresser seems to be a generic term, as you say. Barber is definitely masculine. He was described as a hairdresser, so if that term was used generically, we may never know how it was meant.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 118
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 6:05 pm: |
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Julie,
Nice information. I totally understand what you're saying. I say if a prostitute got a bit of extra money sometime ( a rare occasion) she might be ready to spend a copper or two on a trim or a coif or something. Here comes our roving hairdresser to do just such work. Or they go find him sitting on the stoop by his uncle's cobbler shop (or whatever).
You make sense Julie. Must be a Canadian, eh?
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1483
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 6:19 pm: |
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Mike
Barber is definitely masculine.
I'm not sure. I feel certain I remember a particularly impecunious king being described in a satirical squib as "barber to his wife". But maybe I'm imagining it, as it doesn't show up on Google, and I thought you could find virtually anything there.
Chris Phillips
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5113
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 6:25 pm: |
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Of course, one of the attractions of a bonnet was that they could hide their hair if it was a bit scruffy.
Robert |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 119
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 7:29 pm: |
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All,
Karl Marx 1894
"When, a few years ago," Mr. Krivenko informs us, "certain newspapers discussed what professions and what type of intellectual people the countryside needed, the list proved to be a very long and varied one and embraced nearly every walk of life: men and women doctors were followed by feldshers, then came lawyers, followed by teachers, librarians and booksellers, agronomists, forestry experts and agricultural experts generally..."
Feldschers immediately follow doctors in this list, and are above lawyers and teachers. Clearly a medical and not a haircutting profession. This is a discussion of what the Russian people wanted most.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 120
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 7:41 pm: |
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You thought 6 steak knives, 1 apple corer, a butcher knife, and a pair of miracle scissors was a good deal? Wait there's more:
" spent my first week in the hospital observing and assisting in surgery. I was a visitor at their hospital and had to learn the different rules, techniques, and routines. Many of the doctors were interested in learning about the PA profession. I worked with doctors from Germany, Turkey, Russia, Qatar, and France. While working with the Russian doctor and discussing the feldscher, the Russian equivalent of a PA, we made a connection. I was given more responsibilities to complete in the hospital.
During my time there, I performed H&Ps, drew blood, initiated IVs, and assisted in labor and delivery and multiple surgeries. I concentrated in mastectomies, vaginal and abdominal hysterectomies, and myomectomies. Other surgeries included C-sections, ovarian cyst removal, axillary node dissection, and dilation and curettage. We treated Germans, foreign diplomats, and refugees from countries such as Bosnia, Turkey, Nigeria, Iran, Iraq, and Ethiopia.
I reported to the Chief of staff. All the residents and I worked as a team to cover the ward duties, emergency room, delivery and surgeries. Labor and Delivery was maintained and operated by midwifes. The doctors and I assisted only in deliveries when complications arose or suturing was involved. I was fortunate to develop a close working relationship with a physician specializing in breast disease. For this reason, I was able to participate in many surgeries. She taught me the importance of breast disease recognition, conservative therapy, and how to minimize breast disfiguration from radical surgery. She taught me as much about medicine as about bedside manner."
This is a modern article explaining what a Fedlscher in Russia does today. It is equivalent to a physician's assistant. No haircutting unless the patient asks nicely I assume.
The link: http://www.aapa.org/international/studentinternshiparticle.html
I'm spent. can we be done with this barber-surgeon thing please?
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 169
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 9:59 pm: |
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Baron Von Zipper
Yes I am Canadian, was it really that obvious?
regards
Julie
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 122
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 11:56 pm: |
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Julie,
Only by your profile.
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 290
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 12:06 am: |
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Well, Mike, I see your point but I am still not entirely convinced. You seem to be talking perhaps about the feldsher as understood in Germany (?) perhaps... maybe this role was different in Russia/Poland? I dont know. But do a google search on "feldsher barber" and you get many many pages that give "barber-surgeon" as the defintion of feldsher. Also, you say that the feldsher did not do any haircutting... OK. But what is the specific proof for this?
I found the following which is an account of growing up in Poland in the early 20th century:
" We had no doctor in town, only a feldsher--a sort of medical assistant or male nurse—whose usual prescription for backache, fever, or any other malady the cause of which was not readily ascertainable, also was, like the remedy for a bleeding head, one out of two: either leeches or cupping. Leeches were plentiful in our swamps, and the disgusting creatures always stuck to our bare legs whenever we waded there. Cupping was done by holding the opening of a small thick glass cup over a lit candle, and then quickly applying the cup to the back or side of the patient so that the flesh was drawn into the semi-vacuum created as the warm air inside the cup cooled. If these remedies did not help a more drastic cure was sometimes resorted to: bleeding the swollen protuberances created by the cupping, the incision being made by the town barber with his razor. The basic idea in these cases was to draw out the "bad blood" which caused the illness."
Note that the incision was made by the town barber. This does not specifically state, but it almost seems to imply some sort of connection between the feldsher and the barber does it not? Clearly the barber is engaging in a sort of hack, backwoods medical procedure. Again, my understanding of feldsher seems to be somewhat different from yours. I think in 19th century poland, the feldsher was a sort of unlicensed folk doctor who served poor people (jews?) in ghettos and rural areas. I think the original definition of the term was barber surgeon, not field surgeon, which implies a doctor in the army. At least this was perhaps the meaning in Poland/Russia, if not in Germany.
I am not disagreeing with you that feldsher is a medical profession, but my point is that the barber historically WAS this guy who did both folk medicine and surgery as well as cutting hair. The last example you give is a description of a modern feldscher which I think is entirely different.
Rob H |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 123
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 2:50 am: |
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Rob,
I see your point. My guess is that Feldscher was being translated into barber, as the word Scherer (remember Feld Scherer?) can be literally translated as barber. The word is German in origin, and Marx's work was probably in German originally, but he was talking about the Russian Feldscher. The Jews have a different word for the rural medicine man that is Royfe I think, or something like that. That is also translated as Feldscher at times.
I agree that there would have been a lot of odd, rural practices the rural feldscher would have used. Notice in your article there is still nothing about haircutting.
It is a fact that the barber-surgeon profession was no more in Europe as of 1775 or so, and in Britain eliminated by 1800. Even before those times they had lost a lot of their medical prowess and were relegated to dentistry and hair. They were a medieval construct that waxed for a couple of hundred years, then waned and went away. The feldscher was created as a necessity for large scale battles that were the hallmark of the Napoleonic wars, and indeed they are noted in orders of battle in the Russian, Prussian, and Austrian musters at least.
Is it possible that in some obscure backwater community the barber-surgeon class did not vanish, and instead became known as feldschers, the name perhaps taken from the other, military units that I mentioned? Doubtful, but anything is possible.
Here's rough timeframe:
1215 - Papal decree determines that clergy may no longer perform bloodletting. It is decided that barbers, who are skilled with razors, may do this instead. there are surgeons, doctors, and barbers, and a lot of quackery as the barbers did a lot of medical treatment with no knowledge.
1540 - Henry VIII officially unites barbers and surgeons into one guild class via an act of parliament.
1745 - Barber-surgeon class officially dissolved
1800 - Last barber-surgeon in England
as of 1758 the French army was using Feldschers as field surgeons. They were military doctors and not hairdressers or barbers. Just military doctors.
Remember that the barber-surgeons were a guild and there were people who just did one or the other set of functions. Not everyone was a barber-surgeon in the guild. When it was dissloved, I suppose those who could, became the military feldschers. No haircutting... none. It was different class now and for 100 years before Kosminski came along.
In the backwaters of Poland did things remain unchanged for 100 years, especially in a Jewish settlement? Who knows?
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Matt Will
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 04, 2005 - 9:51 pm: |
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Has it occurred to anyone that these prostitutes could have paid for their "cuts" in other ways? Seems like a fair exchange. I don't mean to sound offensive in any way, but the thought just occurred to me. Also, what about the possibility of scissors being used to cut Kates' apron (or other parts for that matter)? My first post... |
Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 8:47 am: |
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I agree with C.D here. Women that had to pawn the clothes on their backs just to eat are not trotting off to the hairdressers,I mean having your hair done is hardly likely to make you more attractive when you have not bathed for months now is it?
Kelly.....maybe, but not the others. |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 124
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 3:24 pm: |
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Steve,
Prove to me they didn't bathe, or try to look better. You can't.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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c.d.
Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 21
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 4:11 pm: |
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Mike,
Where would they bathe? Certainly a bath would be out of the question and I would think that even the simplest washing would be difficult to do given their circumstances.
c.d.
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 126
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 6:57 pm: |
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CD,
I'm referring to a wash-up really. I was just giving Steve something to argue about. It's always fun to ask someone to disprove something. It works that way with Kennedy theories and the Lindbergh kidnapping nonsense, so why shouldn't I join in? Just having him on. Nothing to it.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2168
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 11:50 am: |
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Hi Mike,
This is a debate that cannot be proven one way or another.
Indeed - you could suggest that the victims may all have gone for a Turkish bath once a month, and been handed a fluffy white towel by a ripper suspect. And no one could prove you wrong.
But I don't think you would get much support for it. Several posters have now voiced doubts about the likelihood that any of the victims would have paid hard-earned cash to someone to give them a jolly new hairdo that would look good for about five minutes under a street lamp at night. As Robert says, a bonnet could hide a multitude of hair-raising sins, and would last a lot longer than a cut and blow-dry.
Indeed, I doubt it's possible to convince someone who knows women as well as I do.
I know women quite well too, oddly enough. I was one myself when I last looked. And many today have a friend or family member look after their locks for them, usually also female.
I appreciate that a Whitechapel unfortunate in 1888 wouldn't worry too much about observing the niceties of the age. But I do wonder if it was quite the thing for Victorian women in general to ask for a member of the opposite gender to run his naughty masculine fingers through their hair on a professional basis. A lot of old-fashioned husbands and boyfriends would not have allowed such a personal service.
Love,
Caz
X |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 141
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 11, 2005 - 5:06 pm: |
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Caz,
I was just about to mention the Turkish bath! I had a dissertation and everything already outlined. Now the cat's out of the bag.
I must go and cut a prostitute's hair now. I just hope the bonnet's not on too tight.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 05, 2005 - 4:44 pm: |
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Steve,
Prove to me they didn't bathe, or try to look better. You can't.
Cheers.
I think I can.I'm not sure which one it is without checking(bit busy atm) but at one of the post mortems the doctor was suprised how clean the victims thighs were - indicating the rest of her was rather dirty?
Besides,I think the proof is in the circumstances,these women lived in the poorest sections of Whitechapel, the best they could hope for was a scrub at a public sink and I think we are maybe mistaking 'hairdressers' with 'barbers' here ladies and gents.
These women lived under conditions which is almost beyond the imagination,in places of incredible filth,I just cant for the life of me imagine them primping up with a trip to the hairdressers, sorry. |
Bryan Saunders
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, October 16, 2005 - 7:00 pm: |
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And frankly with regards to them taken people home to have sex - no , most likely a "quick Wall bashing" and then off to the pub for Gin to make it feel better - as of today most prostitutes are prostitutes due to econmoic status rather than an excessive sex drive. |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 159
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 8:43 pm: |
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All,
Just got some information from a licensed barber and a British sociologist.
Barber is definitely and was definitely thought of as masculine and a cutter of men's hair only, as well as someone who was licensed to shave and do scalp and skin medical treatments. When the barber-surgeon guild was split in 1745, many of the barbers were relegated to wig preparation and conditioning as barbers lost favor. According to ES Turner, after 1800 barbers even lost more favor because of Sweeney Todd and his antics, and they began to call themselves hairdressers to escape the stigma. About 1895 they regained favor again and became important to the field of men's haircutting and shaving. Sweeney Todd was a cutler's apprentice before he learned his barbering trade in prison as a barber's soap latherer or something like that, and then was given opportunities to shave people as well. I asked my barber friend about a barber's medical training today. He said that they do learn about skin and scalp and are licensed to treat that and have rudimentary medical training. He also said that he personally is very adept with the straight razor.
All this means is that Kosminski, as a hairdresser, could have really been a barber, and have been skilled with a razor. Indeed, it may be probable rather than possible because of the stigma in calling oneself a barber.
One more thing, at least in the early 19th century, in the East End, there were 'Flying barbers' who didn't necessarily have a place to cut hair or shave, but instead had a territory that he guarded viciously, even to the point of bloodshed. This territory was similar to a prostitute's territory, I imagine. Perhaps by the time of JTR they still existed in the form of 'Flying Hairdressers' now. This sounds like a possible Kosminski trade.
What does this tell us?
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 828
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 19, 2005 - 5:56 pm: |
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'pends on how rudimentary the medical training was! |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 292
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 3:43 pm: |
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Very interesting Mike... Nice find. So if (big IF) Aaron was trained as an assistant barber (or barber-surgeon / feldscher) in Poland, then it would make sense that he find work as a barber in London (then referred to as hairdresser). So he was a barber essentially in London.
this feels like it is going in circles, but I feel like it is going somewhere. The only reason I am keeping open the possibility of his being trained as a feldscher, is Sims statement that he worked at a hospital in Poland. This must have been information that was in Kosminski's police file, and which was probably relayed by his relatives. So how does he go from working in a hospital (at a very young age) to being a barber in London. This is where (to me), the feldscher seems to be the missing link... the connection.
Rob H |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 196
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 3:59 pm: |
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Rob,
I can see him just being a vagrant barber, If he had some sharp tools, like a scalpel or razor, it might seem the logical thing for him to do, especially if there were flying barbers in those days, and if his relatives are urging him to find work.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 977
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 10:18 pm: |
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Hi Rob,
I think you may be approaching things from the wrong angle. Sim says he worked in a hospital. Sims got most of his info from Macnaghten. Macnaghten had a nasty habit of reporting doctor skills in his suspects that didn't really exist.
I wouldn't just assume that Sims' statements are grounded in reality. Some of them may have been, but we have plenty of other examples that clearly weren't.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 199
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 10:43 pm: |
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Dan
Thanks. I don't think the feldscher/barber-surgeon thing is viable tight now. It really didn't take any special training to call yourself a hairdresser or barber, if that is indeed what Kosminski did. His young age when coming to England, might indicate some sort of apprenticeship in something prior to becoming a hairdresser. I don't want to make any leaps however.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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David Radka
Sergeant
Username: Dradka
Post Number: 44
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 2:08 pm: |
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Mr. No-No wrote: "Macnaghten had a nasty habit of reporting doctor skills in his suspects that didn't really exist."
>>How do you know they didn't really exist?
David M. Radka
Author: "Alternative Ripperology: Questioning the Whitechapel Murders"
Casebook Dissertations Section
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 978
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 7:55 pm: |
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Hi David,
Hate to break it to you, but Druitt was not a doctor.
Etc.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 202
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 9:19 pm: |
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Dan
Is Druitt the only one Macnaghten mentioned?
Thanks
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 188
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 10:52 pm: |
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Mr Radka
How do you know that those skills did actually exist???????
Not only did Mcnaughton get the profession wrong on SAID suspect, he also got his age wrong.
It seems that anytime Dan writes a post you feel it necessary to dispute it.
If there is evidence to support your comment, I am sure we would love to hear it.
PS: Try to keep your explanation on a level that the rest of us peons can understand.
Julie
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Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 189
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 11:17 pm: |
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Baron Von Zipper
Hi
I could not resist the question with respect to McNaughton's list of suspects.
He of course listed Kosminski, and although he is a viable suspect, his description by McNaughton and the reasons for his being on Melvin's list does not convince me in any way of his guilt.He notes that Kosminski 's problem was due to many years of solitary vises. If that were the case than no doubt all the men in the world from age 14 and up to at least 36(?) would be all murderers. Think about it.
He also listed Michael Ostrog, the mad Russian doctor. This person was a thief and a fraud. Melvin referred to his hatred of women and his homicidal tendencies, but does not back it up with any evidence whatsoever. It was also proven that Ostrog was in jail during most of the murders.
He referred to Druitt as a doctor, aged 41, whose own family and friends did not doubt but that he may be the ripper. If he actually had privileged information from either his family or friends, than he sure would have at least known this man's profession and age. I do not believe he had any info from friends or family on Druitt.
Please keep in mind also that McNaughton compiled his list from the police files, or other's theories, as he had not even joined the police force when Jack was on the prowl.
Julie
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c.d.
Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 50
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 11:24 pm: |
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Julie,
Hi. I'm curious. What happens when a man turns 37?
c.d. |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 204
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 29, 2005 - 11:59 pm: |
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Julie,
I think solitary vices indicates public masturbation, else how would anyone know.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 993
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 2:52 am: |
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Macnaghton's notes were for the file (not publications) and he was using argument to make a point. He wrote from memory (the error in Druitt's age - precise but wrong, as it were shows that) of reading the file. His point was that Druitt was from the "professional" class, and Kosminski was obsessed with sex. Ostrog's whereabouts AT THAT TIME clearly remained a mystery.
BUT all he was arguing was that any of the three were more likely than Cutbush to have been Jack. That is that Cutbush was a weak suspect. (Whatever his motives for having written that, and whether he was right or wrong, that is demonstrably the point he was making.)
Victorian's used inference a lot in touching on sexual issues - I think the point MM was making was not just about "self abuse" (which might well have been seen as a perversion then) but the constant thinking about sex that he may have thought went with it - an obsession, as it were.
The Ripper crimes had been identified by senior policemen was sexual in nature - surely then, someone obsessed with sex must be a strong suspect?? Not sophistictated reasoning by today's standards maybe, but pre-Freud it was logical, and remains a level above some who post and reason here.
Phil
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 979
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 3:39 am: |
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Hi Mike,
If it were in public it wouldn't be much of a solitary vice. But, seriously, you never accidentally observed a relative / college roommate / some random guy in a bathroom or restroom / etc. engaging in solitary vices?
Hi Phil,
How is it that you profess to know what Macnaghten's point was when he labeled Druitt a doctor? How can you claim that all he was doing was naming suspects more likely than Cutbush and not necessarily good ones, when we know that he strongly considered Druitt to be the killer, based upon his comments to the afore-mentioned journalist and others?
The point here is that all three suspects he listed had medical credentials listed for some reason, and everything we've been able to check on those claims of medical expertise have turned out to be wrong (or at least greatly exaggerated, as, for example, Druitt may have known a little about doctorin' via his family's background in it, but that's a far cry from actually being a doctor), not to mention the other things that were wrong.
Seriously, Phil, if Macnaghten wanted to call Druitt a professional he could have just said that. It's pretty amazing that you'd argue that he didn't mean doctor when he said doctor, especially when we can see from the thrust of his arguments that Macnaghten assumed some sort of medical background was necessary to carry out the killings.
I am always puzzled at why some people will go to such lengths to come up with strange new ways of reading what Macnaghten wrote.
But then regarding the sexual issue, I think the various experts pointing to a sexual motive in the murders were actually fairly sophisticated in that respect. Lust murderers were an identified concept. There were a number of mental health professionals in various places saying things that were fairly modern. Freud in many respects was a bit of a step backwards for the whole field.
But, yeah, Kosminski... maybe he did work in a hospital in Poland, somehow. All I'm saying is that I wouldn't assume that it's true just because a journalist who got much of his information from Macnaghten said it. The Dagonet articles on the topic were severely lacking in several ways on the things we can check, so we shouldn't assume the things we haven't been able to check were all true.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 994
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 4:12 am: |
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Dan - why so aggressive?
How is it that you profess to know what Macnaghten's point was when he labeled Druitt a doctor? How can you claim that all he was doing was naming suspects more likely than Cutbush and not necessarily good ones, when we know that he strongly considered Druitt to be the killer, based upon his comments to the afore-mentioned journalist and others?
The answer is, I read the memorandum and the drafts, and that is what he says.
Sure we know he thought Druitt the likely killer - but that is not his point here. Civil servants (UK one's at least, then and now) are capable of drawing a distinction between their personal preferences and views, and providing impartial advice to Ministers and on a case.
Seriously, Phil, if Macnaghten wanted to call Druitt a professional he could have just said that. It's pretty amazing that you'd argue that he didn't mean doctor when he said doctor, especially when we can see from the thrust of his arguments that Macnaghten assumed some sort of medical background was necessary to carry out the killings.
Read the memorandums - all of them. Look at the evidence mate, before you start to draw conclusions. You might even find then that the conclusions you draw are solidly based.
Phil
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Ben Holme
Sergeant
Username: Benh
Post Number: 28
Registered: 8-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 9:02 am: |
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Hi Mike,
Quote: "I think solitary vices indicates public masturbation, else how would anyone know."
Pub-talk in the Ten Bells perhaps?
Aaron's friend: "So, Aaron, how was your weekend?"
Aaron: "Well, I had a couple of quiet evenings in..."
On a more serious note, however, I would respectuflly submit that "solitary vices" are of relatively little significance when assessing AK's candidacy for JTR. Such antics do not a ripper make.
Best Regards,
Ben |
Baron von Zipper
Inspector
Username: Baron
Post Number: 205
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 10:58 am: |
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Dan,
I never observed any solitary vices, but that's not the point. In this case it means that AK must have been caught at it several times for any kind of label to be put on him, unless it was just made up.
Ben,
I agree that such things are insignificant. Now if he was caught doing it over someone whose throat he had just cut, I would think differently.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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