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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 278
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 12:24 pm: | 
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Mike,
I encourage your researching this, as I have just scratched the surface as far as information about feldshers, etc. I do know that in the poor Jewish ghettos, it was common for young children to find employment, so I think that it is Aaron's age which would have been about 16 or 17 when he left Russia, is not a problem.
Keep me posted on what you find. Tomorrow, when I am at work, I will dig up my file of barber-surgeon, and see if I have anything to add.
RH |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1433
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 12:42 pm: |
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Mike
Chapman/Klosowski was apparently apprenticed as a surgeon in Poland at about the age of 14.
http://casebook.org/cgi-bin/forum/show.cgi?tpc=4922&post=124124#POST124124
Sugden refers to him in his later career variously as a barber and a hairdresser.
I daresay a look at a trade directory would clarify the terminology regarding ladies' and gents' hairdressers.
Chris Phillips
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 279
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 12:58 pm: |
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Thanks Chris,
That is a helpful little tidbit. I get the feeling that hairdresser means essentially the same as barber, or perhaps it may refer to a person who is employed by a barber exclusively for hair-cutting (as opposed to haircutting and shaving, etc)
Rob |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 68
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 1:11 pm: |
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Good stuff guys!
Here's something else from the BBC:
ALLIANCE DISSOLVED
As the science of medicine, surgery and dentistry advanced, the barbers became less and less capable of performing the triple functions of barber-surgeon-dentist. The surgeons wished to be separated entirely from the barbers and they petitioned parliament to sever the ancient relationship of the barbers and surgeons and compel each profession to adhere strictly to its own provinces. A committee was appointed by parliament to investigate the matter and the petition was favorably reported to parliament. By an act of parliament, which received the sanction of the king, the alliance between the barbers and surgeons was dissolved in June, 1745. Two separate companies were formed and the property, formerly owned by the barbers and surgeons jointly, was divided among the two companies.
PROFESSION DECLINES
This marked the decline of the barber profession. Similar action was taken in France under the reign of Louis XIV. Toward the end of the 18th century the barbers of Europe had completely relinquished their right to perform any of the operations of surgery and dentistry, except in the small towns and out-of-the-way places where doctors and dentists were not obtainable. After the barbers were prohibited from practicing medicine, surgery and dentistry, they became mere mechanics and servants, subject to the whims of fashion. When wigs became the fashion during the 18th and part of the 19th century, barbers became wigmakers. Their profession had lost its ancient dignity and barbers had become laborers, instead of professional men. In England, America and all over the civilized world, the decline of the barber was a spectacle for all to see. Barber shops became hangouts, places where low characters assembled. Smutty stories, malicious scandal and gossip of all kinds characterized barber shops until a few years ago. A barber shop was a place where men showed their lower instincts and where women dared not enter.
Of course this refers to England primarily, but it looks as if, in this case anyway that a barber wasn't a place for women to go, but rather was a place for shiftless men to hang out. Where I live there are very few barber shops as they were always considered a place for men. I know as early as the 1920's in the US, a barber shop was only frequented by men, and a barber would not be called a hairdresser, a haircutter, or a stylist.
It just didn't happen here.
I do agree that I see references that seem to use hairdresser and barber as the same profession. The Oxford English Dictionary thinks of them as separate professions and so do I. There was separate licensure for each and there has always been. In Minnesota a barber cannot legally practice on a sunday, but a hairdresser can, hence the loss of so many barbershops.
Mike the Mauler
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 69
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 1:29 pm: |
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More on this.
The first article is satirical, but it shows the way in which a barber was perceived.
The next articles are advertisements for hairdressers. They definitely have put themselves above barbers by this time. Everything is from the Victorian Dictionary.
Victorian London - Professions and Trades - Services Industry / General - Barbers
THE BARBER (homo emollientissiumus - TRUEFIT)
Physical Structure and peculiarities - The most singular peculiarity of the barber is, that although in his avocations, he always is what is termed a "strapper," yet his stature is usually short. His tongue, however, makes up for this deficiency, being remarkably long - a beautiful provision of nature; for while he is seldom called upon to use his legs with rapidity, his lingual organ is always obliged to be on the "run." His eyes are keen, and his wits sharp; his mouth is tinged with humour, and his hair - particularly when threatening to be gray - with poudre unique. Manner, prepossessing; crop, close; fingers, dirty; toes, turned out. He seldom indulges in whiskers, for his business is to shave.
1. Habits, reproduction and food. A singular uniformity of habits is observable amongst barbers. They all live in shops curiously adorned with play-bills and pomatum pots, and use the same formulary of conversation to every new customer. All are politicians on both sides of every subject; and if there happen to be three sides to a question, they take a triangular view of it.
2. Reproduction - Some men are born barbers, others have barberism thrust upon them. The first class are brought forth in but small numbers, for shavers seldom pair. The second take to the razor from disappointment in trade or in love. This is evident from the habits of the animal when alone, at which period, if observed, a deep, mysterious melo-dramatic gloom will be seen to overspread his countenance. He is essentially a social being; company is as necessary to his existence as beards.
3. Food - Upon this subject the most minute researches of the most prying naturalists have not been able to procure a crumb of information. That the barber does eat can only be inferred; it cannot be proved, for no person was ever known to catch him in the act; if he does masticate, he munches in silence and in secret* (*Not so of drinking. Only last week, we saw, with our own eyes, a pot of ale in a barber's shop; and very good ale it was, too, for we tasted it).
Geographical distribution of barbers - Although the majority of barbers live near the pole, they are pretty diffusely disseminated over the entire face of the globe. The advance of civilisation has, however, much lessened their numbers; for we find, wherever valets are kept, barbers are not; and as the magnet turns towards the north, they are attracted to the east. In St. James's, the shaver's "occupation's gone;" but throughout the whole of Wapping, the distance is very short.
Punch, July-Dec 1841
Victorian London - Professions and Trades - Services Industry / General - Hairdressers
TO the VISITORS of LONDON. Amongst the sights of London, there is none more useful and attractive than the BOWER OF CALYPSO. While surrounded by the sunny sky of the east, listening to the murmuring of the waters, you can have your hair cut; while having your hair dressed by the first-rate artists either English, French, or Italian, you can enjoy the Tale of Telemachus, in the Grotto of Calypso, in sight of the inimitable Mentor and his pupil; you can have your head shampooed in the limpid waters of the Adriatic, always using brushes clean from the stream. So great an influence has the fair island, that premature age, with white heads and whiskers, do not leave the Bower without being restored to their natural colour of brown or black, or when the hand of time has destroyed the luxorious tresses of youth, the invisible fibres of Calypso will restore them to their former beauty.
Observe - HEWLETT'S HAIR CUTTING, HAIR DYEING and WIG MANUFACTORY, 6 Burlington-arcade (five doors from Piccadilly.) Fresh hair brushes to every customer. The head shampooed on the Oxford system.
advertisement from Daily News, 2nd April 1851
________________________________________
MRS. FAIRBANKS,
SPECIALIST FOR THE HAIR,
Has been highly recommended by leading Physicians and Ladies of the highest distinction for her skill in the treatment of Faded and Perished Hair, Harmless Tintings for Grey Hair in every natural shade, and unequalled Tonics for arresting Hair from falling and grey from spreading.
Consultations from 11 to 4 o'clock; Saturdays, 11 to 2 o'clock
Pamphlets post free on application to
Mrs. FAIRBANKS, 16 North Audley Street
Mike the Mauler
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 70
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 7:13 pm: |
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John,
Even whores want to think of themselves as appealing. It's just the way things are.
Mike the Mauler
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2132
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 4:33 am: |
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Hi John, Mike, All,
I have to say I can't imagine the likes of Polly and Annie going to the hairdresser, talking about their holidays and leaving a decent tip! Surely they would have done what they could with a dirty old comb with teeth missing, cracked looking glass and the occasional luxury of a do-it-yourself scissor job, or they would cut each other's hair.
Even today large numbers of women do their own hair, or have friends do it for them, and not necessarily to save money either. I only go to my hairdresser (male, straight - his wife is also a stylist) three or four times a year (yeah, I know, it shows), and I certainly wouldn't bore him with any personal stuff. 
Hubby always calls it "the barbers", regardless of whether it's me, him or our daughter getting our hair done. We rib him about it, and say "No, you go to the barber; we go to the hairdresser", but that just makes him giggle and do it all the more.
Love,
Caz
X
PS I forgot to mention that when hubby goes to the barbers, the "Anything for the weekend, sir?" nudge-nudge question springs to mind. I don't know if they still do it these days, but barbers used to sell condoms.
(Message edited by caz on September 22, 2005) |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5030
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:49 am: |
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But the customers got a shock when Kosminski sold them a knife.
Hysterectomy. It's called the rip'em method.
Robert |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 71
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 10:07 am: |
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Caroline,
Can't you see them going on occasion? Let's say they cajoled a little more money out of a john, or a middle-classer (no such word)was slumming it and gave the poor whore a bit extra. I bet they bought penny candy and cigarettes too. I do agree that they would probably cut each others' hair more often, but the occasional visit to the hairdresser would have happened. I'm really not looking at a they-all-hang-out-at-the-hairdresser's-when-when-they aren't-plying-their-trade scenario.
You have agreed with my barber vs hairdresser opinion.
Cheers,
Mike the Mauler
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 280
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 11:12 am: |
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http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~mendele/vol05/vol05.079
Some quotes from the above source:
"Uriel Weinreich translates _feldsher_ as "old-time barber-surgeon", while
Harkavy gives "assistant surgeon". What precisely were the functions and
qualifications of barber-surgeons in 19th century America is not clear to
me but they may have been similar to those of the feldsher in 20th
century Poland and in the Soviet Union. Among the duties of the feldsher
were the withdrawal of blood by application of heated cups ("cupping") or
leeches, the dispensing of medications such as aspirin, the changing of
bandages, and the setting of broken limbs. I suspect that the training of
a feldsher involved mainly a prolonged apprenticeship under the
supervision of an experienced practitioner, after completion of secondary
school"
"Dan Leeson asked about the term _feldsher_ (5.078). In German
_Feldscher(er)_ is an army surgeon. Russian (and Ukrainian) _fel'dsher_
and Polish _felczer_ refer to a kind of doctor's assistant who has only
high-school level medical education (i.e., is a graduate of a medical
technical high school) and who is entitled to provide first aid and other
low-level medical treatment."
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 281
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 11:27 am: |
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The word "feldsher", introduced into Russian under Peter the Great, is rooted in German "Feldscher" meaning "field surgeon" (Max Fasmer "Russisches Etymologisches Wörterbuch", Heidelberg, 1950-1958; a Russian edition "Etimologichesky slovar' russkogo iazyka", v. IV, p. 189, St. Petersburg, 1996). In modern Russian this word means a graduate of a special secondary medical school, who has the right of independent providing medical assistance (chiefly first aid) to the population at feldsher-obstetrical stations. Dal' describes "feldsher" as "physician's assistant" (pomoshchnik lekaria; V. Dal’, "Slovar’ zhivogo velikorusskogo iazyka" [A Dictionary of the Living Great Russian Language], St. Petersburg, 1880, v. 4, p. 533). During the period under study (mid 19th century - RH), feldhsers were understood mainly as independent medical practitioners, mainly in rural localities, with that or other, even very poor, medical education.
From here: http://www.homeoint.org/books4/kotok/notechap3.htm
(Message edited by robhouse on September 22, 2005) |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 72
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 4:36 pm: |
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Rob,
It is actually a contraction of Feld Scherer, but everything is accurate. Remember that this is not a barber-surgeon, not even remotely. If our suspect was a Feldscher or an apprentice to one, he would have had to pick up his hairdressing skill somewhere else.
Cheers
Mike the Mauler
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1438
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 4:52 pm: |
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Mike
But doesn't Chapman's/Klosowski's career suggest there is a connection?
Chris Phillips
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Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 155
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:06 pm: |
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Barron Von Zipper
Great Post. It sure gives some very interesting information on barbers/hairdressers/surgeons. I was very surprised to read some of the points, however it sure enlightened my knowledge or lack of knowledge thereoff.
Research does make a difference.
Regards
Julie
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 282
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:15 pm: |
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I agree Chris that... it would seem it does. I think it makes a lot more sense to imagine Kosminski at a rather low-level of employment. Perhaps he was an employee in a barber shop as a haircutter. That is sort of what I am thinking... I mean, he certainly did not own his own shop. |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 73
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:24 pm: |
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Chris,
Well, the Barber-Surgeon concept was officially dissolved in 1745 in most of Europe and officially done with in Britain in 1800. At that point they were relegated to a pretty low status in society.
Remember that they were dentists as well. As medical knowledge improved, it became impossible for someone to have the necessary knowledge to do all that stuff. They slowly lost their powers and status and were nothing but haircutters and shavers as of the dates above.
The whole Feldscher thing seems to have been something that occurred in the mid-18th century because of warfare throughout Europe and the need for a battlefield nurse/healer. I was looking at some Prussian military stuff and it seems as if each company had a surgeon and a couple of Feldschers as assistants.
It is possible that some of this barber-surgeon activity lingered in Poland and Russia and remote areas of Austro-Hungary, but I don't think that is something that we can count on. The one account I read on Jewishgen.com fom Poland was a personal account of a village Feldscher and he was almost like a nurse/wiseman. There was no talk of haircutting or dentistry at all.
I assume that some of the first Feldschers were apprentice barber-surgeons who wanted to continue their medical practice. That being said, perhaps some of teh haircutting continued for a while, and perhaps the trade was passed on, but I think barber and surgeon and feldscher diverged completely by say, 1825 at the latest.
As I said, in remote areas, who knows how long this practice could have continued, especially of tradition and superstition was rampant. That's something I could see in a small, Jewish settlement, but It's a longshot.
Re: Chapman... I don't know, Chris. I think getting a hairdresser's license, or whatever they got, must not have been too demanding. If a guy comes to England and says I was a surgeon's apprentice, who knows what immigration would say?
"Right, have a seat by the Orthodox Priest and the dung-gatherer."
I think both Chapman and Kosminski took a crappy, low-status job, and were maybe unhappy about it.
By the way, I am not 100% on all this Feldscher stuff. I gleaned it from pieceing together info. Luckily I am handy with German because that's what some of those Feldscher sources are written in.
Cheers,
Mike the Mauler
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5037
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 7:26 am: |
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Here's dentistry at least.
From the Moving Here site :
Partner: Jewish Museum, London (JML)
Reference: 1985.26
Title: Feldscher's instruments
Description: 12 feldscher's instruments and thread in brown leather wallet. - These instruments belonged to a Jewish man (1844-1929) who lived in Poland and worked as a 'feldscher'. They were brought to England by his granddaughter when she came here in 1939. The word 'feldscher' refers to a Russian medical auxiliary who had no professional qualifications. These instruments were mainly used for extracting and capping teeth and for minor surgical procedures such as lancing absesses, inserting stitches and leeching blood.
Date(s): 1860
Community: Jewish Community
Theme: Origins (conditions in the country of origin)
Format: Object
Access: Original available for consultation at the Jewish Museum, London.
Subject: Poland
Creator: Unknown
Rights: Image copyright Jewish Museum, London. - Jewish Museum, London
Physical Description: poor - Leather case very fragile. 1 side flap has become detached. - 12 metal instruments, 1 velvet card instrument holder and 1 card of thread in brown leather case. Case when viewed closed: one end of case forms flap which is folded over on to front and secured by metal swivel clasp engraved with flowers and fleurs de lys. Front and back of case tooled with 2 geometric rectangles, one within the other; on back of case these are gold. Case when viewed open: case opens flat with four side flaps opening outwards (these four flaps form the sides of the case when closed). Gold tooling around edges of four flaps. Inside of case lined on sides and flaps with red velvet. Case contains two main sections, each with strip of striped ribbon attached across it and fixed to case at various points across it creating in totoal 10 spaces in which instruments lie. Also additional loop for instrument on spine. Separate compartment between back of case and velvet-lined sections within. Instruments: 2 pairs scissors; 2 pairs metal tweezers; 1 metal pin; 3 metal sticks, each with end of different size; 3 small penknives of different sizes; piece of card covered in purple velvet with sections formed from leather strips; buff-coloured thread on piece of white card upon which is written '10 Meter' and 'No 1'. (height: 30 mm) (width: 68 mm) (length: 155 mm)
Robert
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5038
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 8:05 am: |
|
This item from Dec 22nd 1900 seems to show that the old trade of barber surgeon was not confined to east European immigrants, even as late as this :
Robert |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 76
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 10:38 am: |
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Robert,
Thanks for the info. My thought is that Barber-Surgeon is used as some sort of title. It's clear that they were not surgeons by this time. I know that Henry VIII combined dentistry. barbering and surgery into the one occupation, and they underwent 7 years of apprenticeship. It's possible this man gave himself that title because "barber" was not of high enough status... well, actually as of 1893 the term "Barber" regained some status, but they were certainly not medical personnel except with reagrds to scalp and facial care.
I found this site in which many people discuss Barber-Surgeon and Feldscher:
http://shakti.trincoll.edu/~mendele/vol05/vol05.079
The one thing I can say for certain is that Feldschers were not haircutters, or at least that wasn't part of the trade.
Cheers,
Mike the Mauler
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 283
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 10:38 am: |
|
Nice finds Robert. So this must sound like a dumb question, but a barber-surgeon would probably cut hair right?
If only there was something more to Sims' statement... it is intriguing... it suggests that Kosminski worked in a hospital, perhaps as an assistant. I suppose there is no way to verify this. |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1439
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 10:57 am: |
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Robert (CL)
I think those are probably the names of the City Livery Companies that these men belonged to, not their occupations. It is now known as the Worshipful Company of Barbers, the surgeons having broken away in the mid-18th century, but the Hall is still called Barber-Surgeons' Hall, and judging from the newspaper items I think they must still have been known as the Company of Barber Surgeons in 1900.
Chris Phillips
(Message edited by cgp100 on September 23, 2005) |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5041
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 11:14 am: |
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Thanks Chris
Well, that would tie in with another item I found from about 10 years before, in which a medical man says that barber surgeons are long since extinct.
I imagine that as far as east European immigrants were concerned, the pattern could have been start out as a feldscher, then become a barber surgeon.
Robert |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 77
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 11:56 am: |
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Chris,
Thanks. It is important to make sure that we are all on board here about Feldscher and Barber being two entirely different trades. It may make it harder to connect the Kosminskis and Koslowskis with medicine and hairdressing, but we can't make assumptions.
Cheers
Mike the Mauler
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 78
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 11:58 am: |
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Rob,
Oops! I see I have posted the same link as you did. Sorry for the redundancy.
Mike the Mauler
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Sexy Lexi
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 5:32 pm: |
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I read some great stuff on the possibilites of a butcher having committed these murders the other day. I think the murderer was a frustrated jewish immigrant. Obviously, given the location, this is a very likely possibility. He had been going around chasing a bit of skirt - women he enjoyed fantasising about but whose rights he undervalued , seeing them as inferior beings. |
c.d.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 11:13 am: |
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I am not sure how desperate East End street prostitutes have been suddenly transformed into aspiring Vegas showgirls. Any money that they had would have been put towards finding a bed and a drink. Attracting customers for the most part meant being in the right place at the right time. A good hairdo had nothing to do with it.
c.d. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5042
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:15 pm: |
|
Would a feldscher have been obliged to shave soldiers before the surgeon could operate? At any rate, he might have shaved the faces of those who were bed-ridden - who else was there who would do it? So maybe there's a link with shaving.
Also, am I right in thinking that some ultra-orthodox Jewish women have their heads shaved?
Robert |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 79
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 3:29 pm: |
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CD,
Equating Showgirls with prostitutes is rather silly.
Prove to me that a woman who makes her living off of selling herself wouldn't, on occasion buy make-up and get her hair done. It is a component of what we men have forced onto women as objects. It has become a part of their existence and it has become less than conscious on both sides. You are plain wrong.
Mike the Mauler
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 80
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:34 pm: |
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All,
I found a Professor Kaminsky at my alma mater who I hope will be able to answer some question on the exact (if possible) roles of a Feldscher in Poland. She is a professor in the Center for Jewish Studies.
I gave her a rundown of the whole barber-surgeon/Feldscher/Hairdresser thing. I even threw in the Yiddish Royfe (healer) for posterity.
I specifically asked about the hairdressing as a possible task of the Feldscher. Hopefully I'll get some response soon. I told her I can read German, and Yiddish (so long as it's not difficult Yiddish), and that I would be glad to read any older text she might be able to conjure up. Wasn't there a Nathan Kaminsky suspect? Well, I didn't tell her it was about the Ripper. Don't want to bring up old ghosts.
Cheers
Mike the Mauler
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 918
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:38 pm: |
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I read some great stuff on the possibilites of a butcher having committed these murders the other day....
And exactly where did you read this, Sexi-lexi?
I think the murderer was a frustrated jewish immigrant. Obviously, given the location, this is a very likely possibility. He had been going around chasing a bit of skirt - women he enjoyed fantasising about but whose rights he undervalued , seeing them as inferior beings.
I follow your logic, but is that just an opinion, or is it based on something more?
Phil |
c.d.
Police Constable
Username: Cd
Post Number: 1
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 7:16 pm: |
|
Well I finally registered. Everytime I thought about it before, I always remembered the great line of Groucho Marx who said "I would never want to join a club that would have someone like me as a member."
Mike,
The point I was trying to make was that there are prostitutes and then there are prostitutes of the type that frequented the streets of the East End. Maybe the former have the luxury of spending money on their hair and makeup but the latter needed money for their doss. They suffered from alcoholism. Do you really think that they would spend their doss or drink money on makeup and a new hairdo? How long do you think that hairdo would last in damp weather and sleeping in doss houses? They plied their trade at night with drunken horny men that they took into (as a previous poster noted) rat infested and garbage strewn alleys. Did they really need to look their best to do this? No, all they had to do was be available. Sorry, I don't think I am wrong, I think that you are simply being naive.
c.d. |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 81
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 8:52 pm: |
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CD,
Okay, I'm naive. You win. I know nothing about the nature of people. Thank goodness you have registered so that I have you to turn to.
Cheers,
Mike the Mauler
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 921
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 1:47 am: |
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Welcome c.d.. I am sure you will enjoy your membership of this "club". You are a worthy addition.
Phil |
c.d.
Police Constable
Username: Cd
Post Number: 2
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 9:53 am: |
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Mike,
Sorry that you took offense at my post. It was not intended that way. If you disagree with my arguments,that's fine. Point out where you think I am wrong. That is what these boards are for. As for myself, I could have done without the sarcasm.
c.d. |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 83
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 10:28 am: |
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CD,
If I am naive, then clearly I cannot debate effectively on this issue. I guess objectification of women did not exist in 1888, in Whitechapel. Women did not compete for men because they were doing so well financially. Women didn't use combs and mirrors because they didn't need to look better.
Prostitutes didn't tie ribbons in their hair, nor did they paint their faces, as this would take from their drinking money. They did absolutely nothing to make themselves look a little better because they were hopeless, helpless drunkards with none of the vanity that all the rest of mankind had. Buying a cheap haircut from a European immigrant on rare occasions would also not have occurred. This all makes sense to me.
Not a bad life, really. One loses all semblance of humanity and lives in the bottle.
"Betty. You've got a rat turd 'anging from yer earlobe."
"No worries Griselda. No need for any sprucin' up wi' the likes o' these blokes. Ain't enough whores to go around anyway."
Yes, I was wrong.
Cheers
Mike the Mauler
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Julie
Inspector
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 160
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 12:38 pm: |
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c.d.
I would like to welcome you to the boards where you have already made interesting and informative observations. I enjoy your posts, keep them coming.
I agree with you 100% with respect to the post you sent Mike about the use of hairdressers by the prostitutes of the lower if not lowest class.
regards
Julie
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c.d.
Police Constable
Username: Cd
Post Number: 4
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 1:33 pm: |
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Mike,
I agree with your basic argument 100%. What we disagree on is how frequently these women would avail themselves of the services of a hairdresser or buy makeup. Doing so meant a choice since they had such limited means. It meant that they had to do without other things like a bed or a drink. I also don't think that it would have been so effective in attracting customers that it was worth the sacrifice. Do I think that they might have been willing on occasion to make that sacrifice? Yes, but rarely judging from what we know of the lives of the victims. In my opinion, they would not have done so enough to establish any type of personal relationship with their hairdresser which is the whole point of this thread.
Phil and Julie,
Thanks for the Welcome Aboard. I appreciate it.
c.d. |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 85
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 4:14 pm: |
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CD,
I never mentioned any great frequency of visits, and intimacy with the hairdresser is not the main point.
The point is they would know who he/she was and they would converse if they went to see him. That's really all there is to it. You suggested that a lower class prostitute would NEVER visit a hairdresser. That, in my opinion is plain wrong.
Actually then we are in agreement, and I was naive. Hmmm.
And welcome aboard, really!
Mike the Mauler
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 86
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 4:18 pm: |
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One more thing: Caroline say that she only goes to the stylist 3 or 4 times a year, but she goes to the same one. There is a trust there, and that does indicate intimacy of some sort. I would say 3 or 4 times a year is very infrequent, wouldn't you? Yet, back to the same one.
Cheers
Mike the Mauler
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c.d.
Police Constable
Username: Cd
Post Number: 5
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 4:28 pm: |
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Mike,
Well I'm glad that we cleared things up. I suspect that we are more in agreement than we realized. And yes, I do appreciate the welcome aboard. Thanks.
P.S. Although now I have a sneaking suspicion that you were just using me so you could work on your Cockney accent.
c.d.
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 87
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 4:56 pm: |
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CD,
I may start calling you 'compact disc' since you appear to not have a name. Let me tell you about my haircutting experiences. I simply abhor the idle chit-chat that is pushed upon me if I go to a salon or a barber. If you go to a salon, there is always a battery of questions about family (Are you married? Have any kids? How old are they? etc...). If I visit a barber it's always sports talk. Of course I always start complaining about the War in Iraq and President Bush just to see if I can get a rise, and to stop them talking about football, baseball, or hockey.
The point is, they rely on eliciting some sort of intimacy from a customer. They feel it will A. Get them better tips, and B. Give them a steady customer. I have taken to telling them up front that I am in a hurry, and could they get it done in 10 minutes. If they do they get about a 35% tip. If they chat too much they get about a 15-20% tip. I go to different salons every time. I've only had the same haircutter one time this year, and I was unlucky. It's always the same thing. They want to know about you and ask lots of questions. Drives me crazy. It even at times makes me feel a little insane. But, I often wonder how it makes them feel to have to suck up to each and every customer, to have to go through the same spiel for complete strangers and rude folks. That's what keeps Kosminski in my mind. Could be he and I are alike. Although, I am never rude to a hairdresser or anyone else unless they are rude to me. I'm not sure I would butcher someone like the Ripper did, but I really enjoyed the Milton Bradley game: Operation when I was a kid.
Cheers
Mike the Mauler
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c.d.
Police Constable
Username: Cd
Post Number: 8
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 9:42 pm: |
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Hey Baron, Mauler, Mike etc. etc.
I like the simplicity of just having initials. A lot less to keep track of. Sort of a Zen thing, you know. Actually I wanted to just use c. (sort of like Cher) but Stephen Ryder nixed the idea.
And good luck with those hairstylists! Maybe you can turn them into Ripperologists.
c.d. |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2156
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 6:30 am: |
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Hi Mike,
Caroline say that she only goes to the stylist 3 or 4 times a year, but she goes to the same one. There is a trust there, and that does indicate intimacy of some sort. I would say 3 or 4 times a year is very infrequent, wouldn't you? Yet, back to the same one.
I hate to curb your enthusiasm, but there are three main reasons why I go back to the same hairdresser - he is five minutes' walk away from home; he doesn't charge High Street prices; and he hasn't done anything terrible to my hair yet.
There was a programme on BBC1 this morning about the dangers of getting addicted to high strength lagers or ciders. One recovering alcoholic said that when she got up in the morning the last thing she would care about was how she looked or what she wore. All she thought about was getting her lips on the next can.
If it's 1888, and you're dirt poor, past your sell-by date, sick or alcoholic, and you struggle even to get or keep a bed for the night, I still think it's highly unlikely that you've had your hair cut or styled professionally in many a long year, if ever. And if Mary Kelly's hair really went down to her waist, I reckon the same would apply to her, young as she was.
Love,
Caz
X |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5102
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 7:57 am: |
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Of course, Polly would have been overhauled for her domestic service job - I believe that those with servants used to make sure their servants were clean, if only in their own interests.
But I hardly see her toddling off to Aaron's for a makeover. What would he have done to her hair?
Robert |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 284
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 12:44 pm: |
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I tend to agree with Caz on this. I personally see the majority of these women doing their own hairdressing.
And on a side note, I just saw the new Roman Polanski movie over the weekend, and it was very good, but especially excellent was the production design and art direction (ie. the sets, costumes etc), which I thought were very well done, accurate, realistic looking etc.
The story of Oliver Twist takes place in London in about 1838 (when it was written), and much of the story takes place in the slums of Spitalfields. There are two young prostitutes in the story. So this is a bit earlier than 1888 obviously, but it gives you a general picture of the atmosphere of the slums, etc.
Rob H |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 112
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 2:46 pm: |
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Caroline,
I respect your opinion. You go to the hairdresser for the reasons you state. I would say you are not in the majority that you go only for the convenience and the cost. Most women, at least in my neck of the woods, go to the stylist every 2-4 weeks, and there is a definite connection with their hairdresser. Your experience of visiting 3-4 times a year is frankly alien to me. Perhaps in England you're the norm (hope I didn't offend by intimating that you are normal).
Robert,
Not sure I mentioned makeovers, but perhaps you were being witty? I believe that Whitechapel women would have gone to a hairdresser on rare occasions, if only to regain the illusion of being human.
Rob H,
Did you get my email?
All,
This is a debate that cannot be proven one way or another. No one has yet convinced me that a downtrodden whore wouldn't attempt to make themselves look a bit better on occasion. Indeed, I doubt it's possible to convince someone who knows women as well as I do. I have a whole house full of 'em, even the pets. I did have a male beta once, but he was only around 2 1/2 years.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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c.d.
Sergeant
Username: Cd
Post Number: 15
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 3:25 pm: |
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One thing that hasn't been mentioned in this discussion is that if Kosminski did have a clientele made up of East End prostitutes (as well as other residents of the East End), they might have found it strange to see him out on the street late at night on the same night when one of their own was murdered. |
Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 4103
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 3:27 pm: |
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Hi all,
I can't bother going back to read all the posts here - sorry - so I am not 100% sure of what this discussion is supposed to illuminate (or what it has to do with Kosminski, apart from that his initial profession was as a hairdresser).
However, let me just add, that I am not really in agreement with Caz here.
Sure, an ordinary woman suffering from poverty and alcoholism probably doesn't care a single bit about how she looks, but it is a different thing for prostitute.
If she looks good - or at least tries her best to do so - then she knows that might mean an increase in number of clients. Regardless if it's 1888 or 2005, prostitutes have always to some degree competed with each other about customers and territories.
The better you look, the more customers you get, and I think even the lowest prostitutes were - and are - aware of that. They might not have very good means or possibilities to furnish themselves up in East End in 1888, but I do think they cared and tried to some extent, since their trade and income depended on it and I also think they tried to get as clean as they could.
One can't compare them with 'ordinary' alcoholics'.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on October 03, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/historian
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Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 543
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 8:48 pm: |
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I think a reasonable modern equivalent to these unfortunates would be crack whores. Their clientele was not obsessed with esthetics, and pretty darned desperate themselves.
In theory, would they like to look the best they could ? Sure. In actuality, they were peddling anal sex in alleyways to get a bed for the night and more alcohol.
I realize that we are dealing with mortuary photos, but do any of these women look remotely 'dolled' up ?
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 113
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 9:55 pm: |
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Sir Robert,
Crack whores still need to entice, and for that purpose, do indeed wear makeup, put on revealing, if ridiculous clothing, and on occasion, get their hair cut. Find one and ask her. She'll tell you that. It is the whole idea if retaining a semblance of humanity in times of lucidity. It's just how things are. You don't have to agree. It's fine, but you have no argument that will change my opinion on this.
Cheers
Mike
"La madre degli idioti è sempre incinta"
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