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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1630
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 11, 2005 - 3:21 am: | 
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Rob,
A sort of posttraumatic stress disorder?
Yeah, I can understand where you are coming from.
Monty
"You got very nice eyes, DeeDee. Never noticed them before. They real?"
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 262
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 09, 2005 - 10:45 am: |
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I found on the web a PDF that was compiled by Paul Kankula called "English versions of Foreign names". Among other things, this gives Yiddish versions of Anglicized names like Aaron (Aron). However some names have no Yiddish equivalent, so I assume these were just names that were adopted after a person moved to an English speaking country.
Here are the translations for some of the people we are interested in:
English Yiddish
Aaron Aron
Wolf Volf, Wolf
Golda Zlota
Bessie Bronislawa
Betty (none)
Matilda Macia, Mala, Matilda (this is a Russian variant)
Morris Mareczek, Marek, Maurycy, Moryc
I don't know how accurate this is, and I think these translations may be up for some discussion, but I am not sure. I have already looked for some of these on Jewishgen, but didn't find anything.
Rob H |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4677
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 4:37 pm: |
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Chanced upon this :
http://www.rebus.demon.co.uk/datasets/levy.htm
Robert |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 676
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 7:45 pm: |
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I'm gradually pulling away from the Kosminskiesque paradigm. A.K. was probably schizophrenic and very disorganized. JTRs killing schedule was confined to weekends and holidays which implies employment. I think the thing that really made me reconsider was BTK. We have to rethink the loopy loner template. Thats not to say that he was Dr. Gull or the Queen's grandson. I would suspect one of the working poor, and a psychopath (or sociopath, whichever term is correct.) In BTK you have someone who has never lost touch with reality, who does not hear voices, and would not eat bread from the gutter as Kosminski did. BTK just has no conscience and seems to be incapable of empathy. |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 630
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 9:40 pm: |
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Diana,
The only problem with your analysis is that BTK wasn't operating in Whitechapel in 1888 and didn't operate in the manner of JtR. One of my very first posts was to quote Tolstoy's line from Anna Karenina "All happy families resemble one another, each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."
The suggestion was that maybe we shouldn't try to apply that which we know about one serial killer to other serial killers too dogmatically. Naturally, the "cookie-cutter-serial-killer" lobby didn't agree, but I still think there is more than a little truth in Leo's observation about families -- and serial killers.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1181
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 4:22 am: |
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Diana
JTRs killing schedule was confined to weekends and holidays which implies employment.
I don't see this. Admittedly the "double event" took place in the early hours of Sunday, and Kelly's murder on the morning of a public holiday. But not so for Nichols, or for Chapman either - Saturday would still have been a working day for most in 1888.
Chris Phillips
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4680
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 10:29 am: |
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It is possible to obtain lists of recently naturalised aliens (but only from 1900 onwards) at http://www.gazettes-online.co.uk/generalArchive.asp?webType=0
Search term : list of aliens.
Robert |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1773
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 11:11 am: |
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Chris,
A valid point and one I agree on.
However, if he was unemployed then why attack only at weekends and bank holidays? Why not a Tuesday or Wednesday?
Maybe these are the only known attacks or maybe Jack has his own timetable.
Traditionally the weekend and bank holiday has been (and still is) a time for the working class to relax and drink, to enjoy themselves. Ease the stresses of the week. It may also be a time for part time prostitutes, girls who earn a meagre living to 'top up' their earnings at the weekends, yes Im thinking Eddowes here..but thats for another thread. What Im trying to say is that there would have been an increase in victim opportunity.
Just a few right or wrong ideas that Im playing about with.
Another question from Monty. Was there a set payday or did it vary from industy to industry, job to job? The reason I ask is that maybe our boy waited till pay day or there abouts before comitting a murder. The lure so to speak.
Is that a valid idea?
Cheers,
Monty
Of course this land is dangerous!
All of the animals are capably murderous.
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Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2676
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 11:22 am: |
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I thought thursday was traditionally pay day. But I can't be sure I didn't make that up!
"By the power of Greyskull - I have the power!"
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D. M. R.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 5:01 pm: |
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1. Ms Comer wrote:
“I would suspect one of the working poor, and a psychopath (or sociopath, whichever term is correct.)”
>>Funny how I don’t receive my due credit for posts like this. I’m the one who innovated these notions, you know.
2. “In BTK you have someone who has never lost touch with reality, who does not hear voices, and would not eat bread from the gutter as Kosminski did. BTK just has no conscience and seems to be incapable of empathy.”
>>Quite right. Rader is personally similar to the Whitechapel murderer on many counts, as indicated by the case evidence.
3. Mr. Souden responded:
“The only problem with your analysis is that BTK wasn't operating in Whitechapel in 1888 and didn't operate in the manner of JtR.”
>>What’s the matter, Mr. Souden, haven’t you learned anything about psychiatry? Human types of various kinds have been around for ages, and can be identified intelligibly enough through their behaviors, provided you have enough behaviors to go on. What more do you need? You are trying to twist the identification of JtR into as purely an empirical a matter as possible, with your required comparisons of BTK to the factual nature of Whitechapel in 1888 and to JtR’s factual M.O. You just don’t know how to handle the matter in the dimension of ideas. You ought to look into this problem of yours.
4. “One of my very first posts was to quote Tolstoy's line from Anna Karenina "All happy families resemble one another, each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way."
>>Sure, serial killers differ one from another. But Ms Comer isn’t taking the matter in terms of serial killers; instead she takes it psychiatrically. She is dealing with psychopaths, a human personality type, not serial killers. Psychopaths DON’T appreciably differ one from another! Can’t you see what you are doing here? You are attempting to disprove the notion that JtR can be identified by what kind of serial killer he was, but you had already BEGGED THE QUESTION by classifying him as a serial killer to start with! There are various different kinds of serial killers, so you can’t possibly specify anything particular about JtR by what you say! You have an illicit process of logic that tautologically “proves” your point by too broadly specifying the referent.
5. “The suggestion was that maybe we shouldn't try to apply that which we know about one serial killer to other serial killers too dogmatically. Naturally, the "cookie-cutter-serial-killer" lobby didn't agree, but I still think there is more than a little truth in Leo's observation about families -- and serial killers.”
>>Ms Comer didn’t do this! She has NOTHING to say about serial killers above! She is applying what we know about one PSYCHOPATH (BTK) to another PSYCHOPATH (JtR). You don’t need serial killers to do this. You can just as well compare a psychopathic men’s room attendant to a psychopathic serial killer! Comparison can’t work the way you use it.
These matters are discussed in my “A?R Summary,” found in the Dissertations section.
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ottypotty
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 8:40 pm: |
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I am extremely interested about Aaron Kominski for family history reasons.
An Aaron Komski was a witness to the marriage of a descendent in 1892 Clerkenwell. The only Aaron Komski I can find is the Aaron Kominski who has been discussed at length on your boards.
A Kosminski was living at the same address 22 Christian St as the future brother in law Otterstedt of the marriage in which one Aaron Kominski was the witness. I thus assume they are one and the same as coincidence is just too great.
All the Otterstedt family bar one "disappear" from UK about 1895 and nothing more has been traced off them. This Otterstedt family were from Hanover but generation back from Sottrum Germany when they came over to work as Sugar bakers living Christian St from 1861 onwards.
Can anyone shed more light on Otterstedt or any marriage maiden names females who married Kosminski as I am sure there has to be a link somewhere between the 2
Many thanks for all those posting as this is certainly intriguing for my family
Helen |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 263
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 2:18 pm: |
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I would just point out that Aaron Kosminski was not necessarily unemployed in 1888. His profession was listed as hairdresser. In february 1891 when Aaron was admitted to Colney Hatch Asylum, Jacob Cohen told Dr. Houchin that Aaron had "not attempted any kind of work for years". At this point it had been over 2 years since the end of the "series", and thus it is not known if Aaron Kosminski was employed when the murders took place.
Rob H |
Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 683
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 2:59 pm: |
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I think it is possible to find psychopaths in history ancient and modern and in different cultures. What of Nero and Hitler?
The proof that a psychopath has some wiring missing upstairs and thus is transcultural is found in the fact that even some animals are capable of empathy. Who has not heard of dolphins rescuing drowning swimmers? Do they do that because they have a culture that teaches it? No, its somehow hardwired in their little dolphin brains. And if there were a dolphin who thought it fun to drag the swimmer down and watch him drown or kill other dolphins for fun we could call him a psychodolph. He would have the same wires missing as JTR, BTK et. al.
Dogs have been known to rescue people from various situations. I think the empathy wiring at least in some higher mammals is biological and in psychopaths it is missing or shorting out. |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 778
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 4:12 pm: |
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Mr David M Radka (going by D M R now I see)-
You are absolutely off your rocker to make the claim that you came up with the idea that the Ripper was a psychopath. That idea has been around for more than a century. It's absolutely absurd for you to try to claim ownership of an idea that existed before you were even born. The only things you added to the concept were gross misunderstandings about what the term meant and a bunch of bizarrely speculative ideas based upon anachronisms and other obvious errors that you like to present as if they were factual.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 635
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
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David,
I bow before your obviously vast personal experience with psychiatric disorders.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 687
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 11:43 am: |
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Another argument for psychopaths being biological and not cultural (nature not nurture) is that the overwhelming majority of them are male no matter what culture you are looking at.
Whatever psychopathology is, it may follow the same pattern as color blindness. The normal gene in this disorder is located on the X chromosome. The Y chromosome does not have a copy of the gene.
A woman,(XX) then will have a color perception gene from both parents. Both have to be defective for her to be color blind. It happens only very rarely. (Aileen Wuornos)
A man, (XY) has only one color perception gene. If it is defective he is color blind. He is more vulnerable.
It may not be genetic. But I think it is interesting that the gender based frequency ratios of psychopathology seem to parallel those of sex-linked disorders such as color blindness -- a few rare instances of female involvement coupled with a majority of those affected being male.
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D. M. R.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 9:48 pm: |
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Mr. Norder wrote:
1. “You are absolutely off your rocker to make the claim that you came up with the idea that the Ripper was a psychopath. That idea has been around for more than a century. It's absolutely absurd for you to try to claim ownership of an idea that existed before you were even born.”
>>No one can own an idea. Simply consult the copyright laws. An idea can be innovated but not owned.
No concept of psychopathy capable of analyzing the case evidence of the Whitechapel murders existed prior to Cleckley’s work beginning in the 1950s. Before then, a very preliminary notion originating way back with Pinel was all that was available, and it in several ways inaccurately described the referent group.
I have indicated several times here that I developed my idea of the Ripper possibly being a psychopath beginning with reading the works of the psychiatrists Cleckley, Hare and Lykken, each of who indicates he likely was one. They offer lists of historical individuals as likely psychopaths only, including JtR, and make no attempt to analyze the case evidence. If fact no one offered a comprehensive analysis and solution of the empirical case evidence, based on psychopathy, before my ‘A?R Summary’ was published on this web site in April, 2004. If Mr. Norder wishes to maintain that someone did, let him give the name of the author, title and date of publication here.
2. “The only things you added to the concept were gross misunderstandings about what the term meant and a bunch of bizarrely speculative ideas based upon anachronisms and other obvious errors that you like to present as if they were factual.”
Specifically to what “misunderstandings, anachronisms and obvious errors” do you refer? By not specifying them here, you afford yourself an opportunity to make an apparently bold statement against my work, but do not permit me an opportunity to defend it. This superficiality indicates you simply lack qualifications to criticize my work.
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D. M. R.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, July 18, 2005 - 2:21 pm: |
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TYPO CORRECTION
In a recent post I said:
"IF fact no one offered a comprehensive analysis..."
I meant to have said:
"IN fact no one offered a comprehensive analysis..."
My apologies. The spell checker doesn't catch things like this.
David
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D. M. R.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, July 16, 2005 - 2:10 pm: |
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1. Mr. Souden wrote:
“I bow before your obviously vast personal experience with psychiatric disorders.”
>>You can gain the same experience anytime you want, Mr. Souden. Just go to your public library and check out some good psychiatric texts on psychopathy. Use my bibliography. If I can do it, you can too.
2. Ms Comer wrote:
“Another argument for psychopaths being biological and not cultural (nature not nurture) is that the overwhelming majority of them are male no matter what culture you are looking at.”
>>Surely this is false. There is an idea out and about that 1% of the female population is psychopathic while 3% of the male, but this was originated and publicized by feminists for their rhetorical purposes, and is not taken entirely seriously by most psychiatrists. The usual breakdown used by the psychiatric profession is 1% of both males and females in the general population being psychopaths.
3. “Whatever psychopathology is, it may follow the same pattern as color blindness. The normal gene in this disorder is located on the X chromosome. The Y chromosome does not have a copy of the gene. A woman,(XX) then will have a color perception gene from both parents. Both have to be defective for her to be color blind. It happens only very rarely. (Aileen Wuornos) A man, (XY) has only one color perception gene. If it is defective he is color blind. He is more vulnerable.”
>>What about the well publicized studies of identical twins, where one is a psychopath and the other not? Identical twins have identical DNA. As I’ve indicated before, psychopathy likely originates in as yet undiscovered neonatal conditions—one twin may have an adequate oxygen supply while the other doesn’t, for example—and then is developed and hardened into the childhood personality in the early years. As of the day of his birth, such a child is fated to become a psychopath, but isn’t one yet.
4. “It may not be genetic. But I think it is interesting that the gender based frequency ratios of psychopathology seem to parallel those of sex-linked disorders such as color blindness -- a few rare instances of female involvement coupled with a majority of those affected being male.”
>>This statement seems way out there in the ether. First of all, psychopathology is not psychopathy. The latter is a much more restricted term, with a smaller referent group. Second, psychopathy inherently has NOTHING to do with sex crimes. Being a psychopath would incline someone to repeatedly commit all sorts of antisocial offenses, but there would be no particular predilection for sex crimes over other kinds among the population of psychopaths. Most psychopaths are forgers, corrupt politicians, quack neurosurgeons, dysfunctional mothers, etc., not sexual serial murderers or child molesters. And third, psychopathy is far from rare in the female population.
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1276
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 9:31 am: |
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Here's the census entry for Israel [Lubnowsky] Cohen in 1891:
RG 12/301, fo. 85/p. 18:
Mile End Old Town civil parish
No 121 / 6 [Yalford St]
Israel Cohen / Head / M / 37 / Rabbi Minister / [neither employer nor employed] / Poland Carlish [i.e. Kalisch]
Leah " / Wife / M / 30 / / / Poland [?]Kutnor [i.e. Kutno*]
[?]Lilly [or Tilly] " / Daur / / 7 / Scholar / / " "
Rachael " / Daur / / 4 / / / " "
Joseph " / Son / / 2 / / / " "
Kitty " / Daur / / 7 mo / / / London Mile End
*NB A Marks Markovitch, 46, born Kutno, and his family (including a daughter Leah) are in the next house.
The fact that Israel and his family are in Yalford Street strengthens the likelihood of a close relationship with Aaron Kozminski's brother-in-law Morris Lubnowsky Cohen, who lived in that street between 1882 and 1885.
Chris Phillips
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Scott Nelson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Snelson
Post Number: 140
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 5:15 pm: |
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Just saw this, thanks for finding this info Chris. It looks like Israel's wife Leah was born in Kutno. This is listed by that spelling in the Gubernia of Warszawa, Province of Lodz (52-deg, 14', 19-deg, 22'). Unfortunately the BMD records for Kutno are only indexed for 1808 - 1832. There also doesn't appear to be very many "Lubnowski"s in the name search files. I'm guessing that the name may have had an alternate Polish spelling, like "Lipnowski," which is far more common. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2177
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 7:04 pm: |
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Chris P
Going back to your January post, can you let me know where the info came from that Golda Abrahams was married to Abraham Joseph Abrahams?
Many thanks
Chris |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 840
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 21, 2005 - 7:20 pm: |
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Not knowing where to put this,but since the issue of mental health seems to always come up on threads about Kosminski....here you are:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,165646,00.html |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1332
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 2:41 am: |
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Chris
Going back to your January post, can you let me know where the info came from that Golda Abrahams was married to Abraham Joseph Abrahams?
It's from her death certificate, which describes her as "Widow of Abraham Joseph Abrahams A Tailor (Master)".
http://casebook.org/cgi-bin/forum/show.cgi?tpc=4922&post=117945#POST117945
Chris Phillips
(Message edited by cgp100 on August 22, 2005) |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2178
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 9:37 am: |
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Chris P
Many thanks for that Chris
And what was the date of her death please as I have been chasing that recently?
Many thanks
Chris |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1333
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 3:51 am: |
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Chris
She died 21 August 1912 - that link I posted has a transcript of her death certificate.
Chris Phillips |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2183
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 4:05 pm: |
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For what it's worth I have been able to trace only one Abraham Joseph Abrahams consistently through the BMD records but he is listed as marrying another women and is, in my opinion, far too young to be considered:
Abraham Joseph Abrahams
Birth registered 4th Quarter of 1847
London Vol 2 Page 191
Marriage registered 4th Quarter of 1872
London City Vol 1c Page 152
Other names on the register page for marriage:
Anne Anderson
Henry Albert Cutt
Emma Ann Lanham
In the 1881 census Henry A Cutt is listed as married to Emma A Cutt so, Abrahams must have married Anne Anderson.
Death registered 1st Quarter of 1890
St Saviour Vol 1d Page 38
Age at death given as 42 years.
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2184
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 4:09 pm: |
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Chris P
Many thanks for the info and link in your last message |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1334
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 6:38 pm: |
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Chris
Yes - I'd be surprised if AJA even died in England. It seems that Golda came to England after 1891, and perhaps she did so after the death of her (?)second husband, so that she could be taken care of by her daughter(s).
Chris Phillips
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4858
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 3:11 pm: |
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Found this about two of the Lubnowskis.
London Gazette April 5th 1921 :
Notice is hereby given, that by a deed poll dated 31st March, 1921, and enrolled in the Supreme Court of Judicature, I, YETTA COHEN, of 5, Ashcroft-road, Bow, in the county of London, abandoned the name of Yetta Lubnowski and adopted the name of Yetta Cohen.- Dated this 31st day of March, 1921.
YETTA COHEN, formerly Yetta Lubnowski.
Oct 25th 1938 :
LUBNOWSKI, Samuel, commonly known and described in the Receiving Order as Samuel Cohen, residing and carrying on business at 35, Ridley Road, Dalston, E.8. CONFECTIONER and TOBACCONIST.
Court – HIGH COURT OF JUSTICE.
No. of Matter – 627 of 1938.
Date of Order – Aug. 2, 1938.
Date of Filing Petition – Aug. 2, 1938.
Robert
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 58
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 1:17 pm: |
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Just some thoughts:
1.A jewish hairdresser making his paltry living cutting and styling hair in the east end.
2. Many customers are prostitutes who have to at least have their hair look nice and a bit of face paint in order to compete against all the other women.
3. All the girls have seen, or have used his services personally
4. A hairdresser would also have been used at the mortuaries, hence an opportunity to become comfortable with the dead, and gain an understanding of their anatomy (if one desired), especially if the removal of fluids and the stitching up was done at the same time as the hair.
5. A man emasculated by having to depend on women for his livelihood.
6. The women are constantly complaining about this and that, blaming the Jews for everything, and even suggesting that the hairdresser charges what he does because he is a bloody Jew, and won't get a penny more than I've already given you, thank you very much.
7. Is known to be insane at least by 1891, and is known to have some deep religious or mystical beliefs that seem to make him eat and act as he does.
8. None of the victims had their hair mutilated( or so I believe. Please correct me if I'm wrong).
In fact, MJK was identified by her hair. A possible clue. He wants to slaughter them, but hair is his obsession, for whatever reason.
9. How many times has he stood there cutting and combing their hair as they disparaged the conditions of the east End, blaming the Jews and the foreigners for the conditions, and how many times has he wanted that blade to drop a few inches lower, ending their incessant lies and derogations?
10. How many prostitutes would trust the man that cut their hair? How many women today have an unfathomable friendship with their stylists, telling them everything, who they had sex with, what other vices they have what races and groups they hate and why, etc..., not realizing that the stylist is there to do work, and to play psychiatrist just to earn a living, and for the most part has nothing to do with the fantasy relationship the customer has concocted, and may even abhor the customer?
Mull this stuff over and give me feedback please.
Mike the Mauler
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Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1005
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 4:28 pm: |
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Mike:
Regarding number 1...Would the modern definition of hairdresser apply to that position back in 1888? In other words,would an essentially prole clientele have their hair done up in a style [ like a beehive or coiffure..that sort of thing ] or rather just cut ?
Regarding number 2...Wouldn't this competition be more likely to occur for women who worked indoors,like in bordellos ? Most of the street prostitutes were rather unkempt in comparision to an indoor working girl....
Regarding number 5...I don't know about Minnesota,but most modern hairdressers in salons are homosexual men around these here parts. Maybe hairdressing dudes in 1888 felt as comfortable around a woman's hair as do they do now.
Regarding number 9....If the prostitutes complained about foreigners and specific ethnic groups, its probably unlikely they would do so with a member of one of those ethnic groups standing behind them holding a pair of scissors or razoo....When in Rome..
One question aside from your list that maybe someone can supply an answer for...Was Kosminski a hairdresser for women or men ? Was the term barber specifically for men [ as it is now ] back in 1888? |
Maria Birchwood
Sergeant
Username: Maria
Post Number: 30
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 4:54 pm: |
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Hi Howard:
Left you a message about the Vittoria Cremers memoirs and the Bernard O'Donnell manuscript at the hurricane thread, because I didn't know where else to post it.
---Maria |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1428
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 5:36 pm: |
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Mike and How
I share your questions about the role of a hairdresser in the 1880s, but I don't know the answers.
Maybe it's also worth adding that in February 1891 Jacob Cohen said that Aaron "has not attempted any kind of work for years".
Chris Phillips
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 59
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 6:43 pm: |
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Chris,
I read that statement. My take is that Cohen could have been literal and anything over a year = years.
Howard,
Women throughout time have placed appearance as a very high priority, especially when attraction or the illusion of attraction was a big part of their job. If it wasn't, they could have just been assigned to cattle stalls with bags over their heads, and men could just have paid a few pence and have been given an available animal. I think hair and make-up would have been very important, even if it was just for some semblance of normalcy to their lives. Didn't most of them have items on their persons that would be used for beautification, ribbons, combs and the like?
Also, the word barber applied to the cutter of a man's hair. It was used in America and Italy as well in the victorian era.
I think this calls for more analysis, but I think it may be something really important.
Cheers, and thanks for your responses,
Mike the Mauler
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5016
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 7:18 pm: |
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http://www.victorianlondon.org/
There's info on barbers and hairdressers at Professions and Trades/Service Industries.
Robert |
Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 275
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 10:20 pm: |
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These pages are pretty interesting reading... I will refer to 2 URLS:
http://www.victorianlondon.org/publications/unsentimental-21.htm
http://www.victorianlondon.org/publications7/world-31.htm#barber
The first link speaks of the author's reccollection of barbers and barber shops. One of the interesting things to note is that barber/hairdressers essentially did a dual business, consisting of both cutting hair and shaving. The author reccollects his horror at seeing the barber "seize my relative by the nose with one hand, whilst in the other he flourished a gleaming, wedge-shaped knife ! He tilted my uncle's chin till his head fell back, and the peculiar little lump in his throat shone again!" I admit it never occurred to me before, but that a barber would regularly used a straight razor in shaving the face and neck of clients. I wonder if a razor might have been one of the weapons used by JTR?? Just a random thought.
Also, perhaps more importantly, it seems that in both the above articles, the words "barber" and "hairdresser" are used indiscriminatly. for example in discussing his curious interest in "barber shops" the author notes the following advertisement: "Shaving! Shaving!! Shaving!!! Timothy Weevil begs to announce that, on Sunday, the seventeenth inst., he will, at his hair-dressing and shaving establishment, Lambeth Butts, reduce his price for shaving from two-pence to three-halfpence, and for hair-cutting from four-pence to threepence."
The following is also perhaps of some interest: "Mr. Flight's establishment consisted of himself, two young men, and an apprentice-boy. Only one of the two young men, however, was available for shaving purposes; the other one undertook the hair-cutting, and passed from poll to poll with amazing rapidity. "
for example in the following sentence, it seems the words "barber" and "hairdresser" refer to the same profession and are interchanged indiscriminately:
"People imagine that London sends hairdressers to all parts of the kingdom ; but the fact is that every barber in the country comes to London, at some time or other, to improve, working for nothing the while, for the sake of learning the ladies' department. "
or this:
"Next door to our baker lives a barber, who tells us that half the barbers in London are London born, but that a good many of the fashionable hairdressers are from the watering-places and genteel towns. "
It is actually difficult to tell if these terms imply that hairdresser is one who cuts ladies hair, but I do not get that impression. I think barber and hairdresser mean the same thing.
Rob H |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 60
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 11:08 pm: |
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Rob,
You quoted:
"People imagine that London sends hairdressers to all parts of the kingdom ; but the fact is that every barber in the country comes to London, at some time or other, to improve, working for nothing the while, for the sake of learning the ladies' department.
That states that barbers come to London to learn the ladies department, or hairdressing. I say that a barber can be a hairdresser, but one is masculine and the other is feminine.
On the next statement it is distinguishing between fashionable hairdressers and barbers.
Even today a man might say I'm getting a haircut when he is going to a hair salon, but a man would never say "I'm going to a stylist, or to a salon."
Well, almost never. There is something implied that to get your hair more than cut, is feminine, so you mustn't say it. It is utilitarian rather than frivolous. I believe the distinction is the same with barber and hairdresser.
Cheers
Mike the Mauler
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 61
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 19, 2005 - 11:29 pm: |
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Rob,
The Victorians looked at anything the woman did as somehow childish and frivolous. Everything the man did was superior and had meaning. Women stayed at home (in higher stations)and men did everything of consequence. The lower classes emulated this to an extent, or at least as much as possible. I should think it would be unheard of for a man to go to a hairdresser. It would be unmanly, and as I said non-utilitarian.
Regardless, this is getting interesting.
Cheers
Mike the Mauler
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 276
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 10:43 am: |
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Mike,
I am not sure I agree with your assessment. It seems to me that a barber shop is a place where you have haircutting or hairdressing, and shaving. And it seems also that barbers would do other business on the side such as selling tobacco as noted in the article. Look at the first quote, in which the barber refers to his shop as "his hair-dressing and shaving establishment". Surely if there is shaving going on here, then it is an establishment frequented by men, who I assume might also get their hair cut there. I think you may be getting too caught up in the supposed modern connotations of the word "hairdresser". As I am reading it, the term hairdresser means "one who cuts hair". This is not, as I said earlier, synonimous with the term barber. A barber, it seems to me, is employed in hair-cutting, shaving (men), and doing certain side business. As I pointed out earlier, the barber has historically been associated with the surgeon, since these two trade guilds merged, and in Poland there was the profession of feldscher, or barber-surgeon. This is the main reason I am interested in Aaron Kosminski's supposed profession of hair-dresser.
RH |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 62
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 3:20 pm: |
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Robert,
I know the Barber/surgeon thing was gone in England as of about 1775 or so. And you are right that a barber is distinguished as someone who does hair, but is also licensed to shave and trim beards and mustaches. That is why I take the term of hairdresser as something other than barber, or else he would have been called a barber.
I like the idea of the barber/surgeon, but I don't think it applies here. I am open to debate, however.
Cheers
Mike the Mauler
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Julie
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 146
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 4:36 pm: |
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Baron Von Zipper
The Victorian men obviously considered females as inferior to them, unintelligent, and in some cases no doubt as objects or possessions.
Fortunately things have changed, although this does not apply to all parts of the world. We have come a long way and do equal if not surpass men in some areas , even to the point that "WE" consider ourselves far superior to males. I won't go into all the details, but don't misunderstand me to be a women's libber who hung her bra up. If I did everything would flow forward,nicely of course. I am however a backer of women's rights.
As for hairdressers during Victorian Times being considered unmanly, well although times have changed I still regard a male "Hairdresser" as somewhat of an unmanly career, aka flake or gay. This doesn't mean that my opinion is the correct one, but it is mine, however I would certainly have a male do my hair regardless of his sexual preference, whatever turns a person's crank, is their's to accept.
So it wasn't just Victorian's that thought that way, people still do even though parts of society have accepted gay as ok, other parts of society have not.
I am kind of in the middle, if that's your bag (so to speak)no problem just don't shove it in my face.I don't mean you personally!
regards
Julie
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 63
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 4:46 pm: |
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Julie,
I would never argue a woman's superiority. In fact, the world will be a better place when women are in charge of governments.
I did say too that women and their stylists/hairdressers have a bond, at least from the customer's point of view. I have talked to so many women who agonize over finding a new stylist. It is a betrayal in their minds. Of course this is generalization, but I find it to be the norm.
I used to date a woman who was a stylist for years, and she said that to her everyone was a customer, some better than others, but to the customer it was as if she was a great friend.
Anyway, I think it is very important to define, if possible the roles of a hairdresser vs a barber, and the Victorian view on each profession. it may be what keeps certain suspects valid, or dminishes their importance.
Have a great day!
Mike the Mauler
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Julie
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 150
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 5:10 pm: |
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Baron Von Zipper
Points well presented and well accepted on this end.
regards
Julie
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 64
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
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Robert,
here is something from www.jewishgen.com you might be interested in:
The mission of the feldscher was to heal wounds and also minor ailments. They were not trained to deal with any more serious medical problems than that, nor were they permitted to do so. However, there were able men among them who, through practice and experience, had earned the confidence of the people and had been permitted to deal with more serious problems. Yankl the roife was this kind of feldscher.
This is the role of the Jewish Feldscher in Poland. A barber originally was a haircutter. shaver and beard trimmer. Eventually they took on some medical roles, but I think at this time, and the reading is from about 1912 (I believe), the Feldscher was no longer a barber, it was a medical assistant. Perhaps some barbering was done, but in many cases they were assigned to regiments as doctors' assistants.
Let's keep this going. We both find this interesting, but I lean to the emascualted man forced to do woman's work, and you to an expert hairdresser/slaughterman (untrained surgeon)
Cheers,
Mike the Mauler
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Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 66
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 12:50 am: |
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Robert,
I just read your dissertation. Good work. It's interesting that we are thinking along the same lines before I had read anything in depth on Kosminski.
A couple of things: If he was a Feldscher, which I doubt because of his age, and now in Whitechapel he has to be a mere hairdresser, that's an angle to look at.
2nd thing: The hair! Many serial killers were fixated one one thing. We have, if the canonical victims are agreed upon, a progression of violence culminating in a complete slaughter MJK, but the hair isn't touched, or at least isn't mentioned. Granted the cutting of hair wouldn't contribute to the death of a victim, but it would show a pattern. Maybe he even combed their hair as a clue. "In the hideousness of this butchery, my art stands out."
Just some thoughts.
Cheers
Mike the Mauler
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Robert W. House
Inspector
Username: Robhouse
Post Number: 277
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 11:07 am: |
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Mike,
There are many things to consider re: the possibility of kosminsky having possibly been a trained as a feldsher or an assistant feldsher. First, feldsher seems to be of Russian origin, and it is almost certain that Kosminski was from the russian part of Poland. Second, we have George Sims statement that while in Poland, Kosminski hd been at one time employed in a hospital, as a hairdresser or an orderly.
My sources are now getting mixed up and I don't have my books with me, so the suggestion that he worked "as a hairdresser or an orderly", I just probably copied from Sugden or some later author... I don't think Sims specifically said that.
Sims' statement in Lloyd's Weekly News, 22 September 1907 in the Article titled "My Criminal Museum" is: "He had at one time been employed in a hospital in Poland."
I think it is safe to assume that Sims' source for this was McNaughton.
Back to Feldsher... the concept of a barber-surgeon seems to go back to the middle ages, but has been found in a variety of places up to I believe, the 20th century. My information on this is spotty. For example, in the war of 1812, on the battleship Constitution, the barber acted as surgeon, performing amputations. The feldsher was also essentially a barber-surgeon, often working in a military capacity. To my understanding, a feldsher would have been like a sort of surgeon for poor people, and this would have applied in the Jewish ghettos where Kosminski was most likely living while in Russia/Poland. So to me, Sims' statement has a ring of truth about it. Perhaps Kosminski was trained as an assistant feldsher at a hospital in Poland, and when he came to England he found occupation as a hairdresser. (?)
The obvious importance of this, is that a person who had worked in a hospital as an assistant feldsher, is exactly the type of person who may have had a crude understanding of anatomy or surgical skill/knowledge.
Rob H |
Baron von Zipper
Detective Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 67
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 12:17 pm: |
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Rob,
I agree that his being a feldscher would be a big clue. I'd need to know at what age a person could become one because he was about 17 when he came to England. I also have read about the use of barber-surgeons in the Napoleonic wars by the Austrians and Russians. I know as of WWI the Feldscher was a medical assistant at least in the Polish Jew communities, with an oppotunity to practice more advanced stuff once they gained a lot of experience and the trust of the people.
If it could also have been an apprenticeship process, then I imagine the apprentice could have been as young as 13 or 14. Let's say for argument that Kosminski was an apprentice at the age of 13 and spent 3 solid years, in a time of turmoil, observing and helping a doctor, this may have been enough time to become familiar with a surgeon's tools. This doesn't explain his hairdressing, however. That could have been a lowly trade that he picked up when he came to England and found that his skills in medicine meant nothing without some education and credentials.
I'm going to do a little research this weekend and see what I can come up with for generalizations about such things.
Cheers
Mike the Mauler
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b.a,k
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 6:47 am: |
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we are all mad to some degree. it may bw that there are more personality disorders among men than women but in the special hospital that i work in, we still have a lot.each ward is designated to each type of illness. psychopaths are now called personality disorder and like any other ilness ther are degrees of severity. |
john wright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 20, 2005 - 12:30 pm: |
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baron,
this is the first time i've seen this site and find it interesting with all the different opinions and slant on things, however i feel i must disagree on the thought that they went to the hairdressers to make themselves look good, you seem to forget that they plied there trade down the rat infected and excrement littered alleys and did the buissness by standing against a wall and lfting there skirts, also the majority of there customers would have been the working class who wouldn't have been concerned about there looks. john genuine east ender who played in the area of the murders
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