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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 349
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 15, 2005 - 7:13 pm: | 
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Hi all,
The geographical profilers tend to assert that a serial killer's first murder usually occurs in an area somewhat close to their residence; something they refer to as the slayer's "comfort zone". In this instance, they look to place Jack's home as being somewhere near the Nichol's murder site. But what if this first killing was a spur of the moment act that happened with little or no planning? Wouldn't this make it a little less likely that it was near his residence?
I think his neighborhood might be better indicated by looking at the two murders where he might have had to return home in daylight or twilight. We know in the case of Chapman that it was daylight when he made his exit and in the case of Kelly it could have been as well or at least twilight. These killings weren't far apart and I'd expect that he would not want to be walking long distances through the streets where blood could be seen on his person in good light. To me, this points to a residence within a couple of blocks of the intersection of Hanbury and Commercial Streets.
The apron on Goulston Street was also on a path from Eddows that could have led to this area. I do not, however, exclude the possibility that this "clue" might have been purposely left there to throw the police off his true trail.
Too bad the police didn't thoroughly search all the rooms in the immediate blocks from this crossroads and go over all the chaps between 15 and 45 years of age who lived there. At worst, they could have eliminated some suspects. Then again, perhaps they did and we have no record of it.
Goodies,
Stan
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1633
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 1:49 pm: |
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Hi Stanley
It might be apt to note that although BTK killer Dennis Rader once killed one of his neighbors, 53-year-old neighbor, Marine Hedge, in her home on April 27, 1985, he didn't think it was a good practice to do so.
At testimony prior to Rader's sentencing of Rader last month, Sgt. Tom Lee testified, "He told me it was really bad for a guy to knock one of the neighbors off -- it's not good for a serial killer because you don't want to kill in your own habitat." See http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/08/18/btk.killings.wed/
BTK wrote a Feb. 10, 1978 two-page, single-spaced letter to KAKE-TV, identifying with Jack the Ripper, Son of Sam, and the Hillside Strangler, claiming they were driven by "Factor X." See http://www.karisable.com/skazbtk.htm
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 350
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 2:32 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
There are drawbacks to killing in your neighborhood which is even larger now than it was then. I wasn't arguing so much for the "comfort zone" tenet but to point out the unwiseness of walking 5 or 10 blocks with blood on your person in daylight and that JTR must have been smarter than that. He, of course, could have been in an enclosed coach but I don't see much to convince me of that.
Best regards,
Stan |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 898
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 6:58 pm: |
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Hi Stan,
Actually I don't think we know that the Ripper had to go home in twilight or early daylight hours at all. Chapman's murder could be earlier in the night (since the witness statements are fairly inconclusive and/or jumbled) and even MJK could have been killed 4 am or quite a bit earlier, especially if Hutchinson's account is discarded.
Either way we also do not know how much blood would really be on the killer as he walked around, as he could conceivably have taken extra steps to prevent blood from getting on him (gloves that could be removed after, etc.).
And of course we don't know that Nichols was the first Ripper victim either.
I do believe the police did search residences in that general area... I'm not sure on the exact details of the search, though.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 352
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 7:32 pm: |
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Hi Dan,
At least two witnesses would have to be wrong for Chapman to not have been murdered near sunrise. The time JTR was leaving Kelly's residence would be more open to question.
As far as the killer not having much blood on him, of course he may have had little on him but, without two full length mirrors, he had no way of knowing that himself. I'd think he should worry that there were splatter droplets or smears in his hair, on his back or on other areas where he couldn't readily check.
Best regards,
Stan |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1420
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 7:43 pm: |
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Dan
Actually I don't think we know that the Ripper had to go home in twilight or early daylight hours at all. Chapman's murder could be earlier in the night (since the witness statements are fairly inconclusive and/or jumbled)
?
I don't know how inconclusive and/or jumbled you think they are, but the murder could hardly have been committed much before 5am even if you think Long and Cadosch were hopelessly confused. That would be within half an hour of sunrise, at the very earliest.
Chris Phillips
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 353
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 8:00 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
From what I've seen sunrise was at around 5:20. They did not have daylight saving time then and the clocks were set to put 12 noon at the point when the sun was highest in the sky. Even if it was cloudy, it would have been quite light out at 5:30.
Another point about the killer having much blood on him or not, he couldn't have possibly known how much blood he was going to get on himself before an attack commenced. If a victim had thrashed about during an assault, he could have gotten a lot of blood on his person no matter what precautions he took.
Best regards,
Stan
(Message edited by Sreid on September 16, 2005) |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 900
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 9:10 pm: |
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Hi Stan and Chris,
The debate over the time of death of Annie Chapman was covered by Wolf Vanderlinden is an article in the April 2005 issue of Ripper Notes. It happens to be the one we selected to put online as a sample article for that issue, so those who aren't up on the latest published research can read it here for free:
'Considerable Doubt' and the Death of Annie Chapman
It's quite clear from the police records that the doctors and police officials thought the time of death was much earlier in the morning than the coroner (who did not have a medical background) and many of the newspapers would lead us to believe. Further, quotes from modern medical experts back up these findings. The witness testimonies that were treated as sacrosanct by some can be shown to be largely inconsequential (Long saying she saw two people standing somewhere on Hanbury Street -- note that they were not in front of #29 and did not walk to it -- who were doing nothing suspicious) or self-contradictory (Richardson's three different conflicting stories about going to the backyard and seeing nothing).
In short, the standard time of death for Annie Chapman that most sources use is yet another bit of conventional wisdom about the case that isn't necessarily so.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
Profile Email Dissertations Website
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 354
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 9:59 pm: |
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Hi Dan,
Of course, almost anything is possible but it would seem to be stretching the odds to think that three witnesses were all wrong and, even more of a stretch, were all wrong in the same direction.
As for doctors setting time of death, they even disagree with each other today if you've seen some of the cases on Court TV. The time determination is a combination of at least seven elements, those being; pupil fixation, body temperature, rigor mortis, lividity, stomach content digestion, insect activity and decomposition. All can be affected by external factors. And neither are all people exactly the same when external factors are.
Have a good one,
Stan
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1421
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 4:11 am: |
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Dan
Thank you for the link to that interesting article from Ripper Notes.
As Stan points out, the speed of the processes by which Dr Phillips estimated the time of death is very variable, and the variability would be exacerbated by the fact that Phillips's observations of the temperature and the onset of rigor were purely subjective ones.
It's a shame Wolf Vanderlinden didn't take the opportunity to include some modern scientific data on the variability of cooling and the onset of rigor.
I still don't really understand how Vanderlinden can get round Richardson's sworn testimony that the body was not in the yard between 4.45 and 4.50. The implication seems to be that he made this up for some reason, but I can't see any reason suggested.
Unless Richardson was lying, the murder must have been committed after 4.50, and the murderer went home after the start of twilight. Unless Cadosch was also lying, it must have been at least half an hour later, and the murderer went home after sunrise.
Chris Phillips
PS I can't resist mentioning one of the stranger things in Vanderlinden's article - the suggestion that if the murder was committed earlier then "the fact that he [Druitt] played for the Blackheath Cricket Club against the Brothers Christopherson at 11:30 that morning on the Rectory Field in Blackheath does not rule him out". As has been pointed out many times, it didn't take 6 hours to get from Hanbury Street to Blackheath, so a 5.30 timing doesn't rule Druitt out either!
(Message edited by cgp100 on September 17, 2005) |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 355
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 10:57 am: |
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Hi all,
Several things can effect post-mortem body heat in addition to the air temperature, including wind and moisture. In this case, however, the most important may have been blood loss and "ventilation" of the core when the abdomen was opened and internal organs exposed to the cool morning air as well as the cooling effect of the evaporation of body fluids. All of these factors would have made the corpse cool much faster than someone who had died indoors of a heart attack. These would make it appear that Chapman had died much earlier. A lot of these same elements could have thrown the estimate for Kelly off as well. They may also have some influence in the onset of rigor which can also be a sort of "personal thing"; meaning not all are exactly alike.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1422
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 11:51 am: |
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Stan
Looking at the inquest evidence again, it seems rather obvious from Phillips's comment - "I should say at least two hours, and probably more; but it is right to say that it was a fairly cold morning, and that the body would be more apt to cool rapidly from its having lost the greater portion of its blood" - that his estimate was based on the temperature of the body, not on the onset of rigor mortis.
That's just as well - a short Google search brings up a quotation from Knight, Legal Aspects of Medical Practice (1987), to this effect: "it is extremely unsafe to use rigor at all in the estimation of time since death" (though to be fair the person quoting this says it is "somewhat extreme"). It also brings up data from an influential 19th-century study showing that in some cases rigor mortis could be complete after two hours, so it would certainly not be safe to deduce from the onset of rigor that death took place at least two hours before.
As for the temperature of the body, despite what Vanderlinden says, obviously Phillips is qualifying his estimate of the time of death. Though I would have thought the opening of the abdomen and the removal of some of its contents would accelerate the cooling of the body much more than the loss of blood.
Essentially I just don't believe the time of death could be accurately calculated from the kind of quantitative observations Phillips made, particularly in the unusual circumstances.
Chris Phillips
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 356
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 12:14 pm: |
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Hi Chris Phillips,
Yes, although we'll probably never know for sure, I think the testimony and evidence fairly well indicates that they got Chapman's death right when they put it in the 5:00-5:30 range. Kelly is more difficult due to the delay in getting to her.
Stan |
Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 16, 2005 - 9:01 pm: |
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Assuming of course that Polly Nichols was his first murder,and I very much doubt that.
I have a problem with this 'bloodstains' thing too.Firstly there is a bit of 'Hollywood' in the premise that blood shows red on black or dark clothing - it most certainly does not.Next we have the materials of the time, with very few synthetics around a lot of clothing, and especially coats, we're wool or other heavy cloth which soak blood up.
Even if he WAS bloodstained I doubt our man would have been stupid enough to be running around in light clothing.
We have, as you know, in the vicinity of Whitechapel many slaughterhouses, so.....as long as our man has washed/wiped at least his hands(we can presume most would wash up after work) then he could pass unoticed even in lieu of the first point above.
It's an often used crticism of police in 1888 that they did not check this person or that person,one dwelling or another.How many doss houses in Whitechapel? housing how many people? and often for one night only.That would be a mammoth task even for the modern force let alone H Division in 1888.
If you look at a map with the murder sites marked it is apparent that after killing Eddowes he heads BACK into the 'danger zone'. For a bloodstained man this would have been lunacy UNLESS he had no choice.Only two things spring to my mind here,either he was heading for home OR he was heading to his transport.
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 359
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 7:28 pm: |
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Hi Steve,
As I said earlier, the Eddowes apron actually fits my premise, although, it can't be ruled out that it wasn't planted as a red herring. And whether Nichols was the first murder or not is pretty much immaterial here.
And yes, of course, blood does not show up on dark clothing much other than a wet spot once it's soaked in but small droplets don't always soak in due to surface tension. He also had no way of knowing how much blood he was going to get on himself before an attack nor could he check every part of his body to see where blood splatter might have landed and what it looked like. JTR might also have gotten blood on his face or in his hair, something that a slaughterman would have presumably cleaned off in front of a mirror before he left work. Beyond that, I'd expect police to check anyone who had anything that looked like it could be blood on them. If they turned out to be slaughterman, then their names could be taken down and they could be sent on their way.
Best wishes,
Stan
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1888
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 8:39 am: |
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Steve,
It's an often used crticism of police in 1888 that they did not check this person or that person,one dwelling or another.How many doss houses in Whitechapel? housing how many people? and often for one night only.That would be a mammoth task even for the modern force let alone H Division in 1888.
They did.
Put 'Met Search Area' in search.
Cheers,
Monty
My prediction? 3-0 to us. 5-0 if the weather holds out. - Glenn McGrath
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Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 9:05 am: |
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I know I'm un-registered Monty but I'm not an idiot
I thought the met 'search area' ran over the course of the entire case?
What I was getting at is that unlike today,where people in one area are more or less permanent residents,there were a lot of people in that small area using doss houses on a night to night basis - that would be extemely difficult,if not impossible, to check. |
Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 9:09 pm: |
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Hello Stan
I'm of the humble opinion that our man lived central in Whitechapel OR he was leaving transport in a yard somewhere.
Looking at a map,if he lives central,he's minutes away from home after every murder, in the same vein he's minutes away from his transport.Would the police have stopped a pony & cart?
I dont think there would have been much blood.I think he strangled them until they we're unconcious or dead & that the cutting of the throat was to ensure a lack of bloodstains.Lack of arterial spray at some of the scenes seems to point to the fact that sometimes he got carried away and they we're dead when the throats we're cut.
It's difficult to imagine him not being in dark clothing,just reading witness statements EVERYONE is in dark clothes.This man did not leave things to chance in my opinion, I think he knew police beats,the local shortcuts, he carried his own knife, this man knew he was out for murder - its unlikely he would not be dressed accordingly.
From all I've read I dont think we can put much faith in the surgeons,especially Phillips, and knowing Anderson brought in his own man just convinces me more.I dont think night or dawn would matter to this man in terms of being stained with blood - I dont think there was much blood on him or that he was around long enough to draw attention to himself anyway.
But I DO think he knew Whitechapel like the back of his hand. |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 375
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 5:19 pm: |
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Hi Steve,
Unless the victims' hearts were completely stopped, there would be arterial spray. Unlike in the movies, this strangulation would take a least several minutes to accomplish, in fact, there are records where hanged criminals' hearts continued to beat a half hour after they were dropped through the trap.
Dark clothing was the norm back them but a man would look very out of place if every article he was wearing was dark. And as I said before, he could have gotten blood on unclothed areas of his body and could not have known in advance how much, where or how the blood would have adhered. These would certainly be easier to see in daylight than under widely spaced gas lights.
As far as stopping a pony and cart, I'd expect police to eye ball them well and stop any enclosed coaches which I'd think would look out of place in Whitechapel.
Why not get registered, old boy?
Best wishes,
Stan |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 902
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 22, 2005 - 1:51 am: |
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Given that jack "plundered" the bodies of Chapman and Eddowes, he must have had to dip his hands into their abdomens to pull out the entrails (in the case of Kelly - if a JtR murder - he might conceivably have worked naked or partially stripped).
But in the cases of Hanbury St and Mitre Square, it is likely that his cuffs would have been blood-stained. And cuffs in 1888 would certainly have been WHITE. I don't know what the presence of starch does to the appearance of blood though.
But that would only apply to a man "respectably" dressed. A Whitechaopel man, of the poorer or unemployed classes, might not (would probably not, indeed) have had cuffs to worry about - jusy bare wrists or a sleeved vest of some kind.
On ponies and traps, I am sure the police would have taken interest in one travelling in the area of a murder soon after its occurence - they were asking about carriages etc as early as the Bucks Row murder.
A carriage would have been highly suspicious, because rare, in the backstreets of Whitechapel. That is why I always ask what the precise type of carriage the poster has in mind, when that aspect of the conspiracy theory raises its head. The images of (say) the Michael Caine 1988 TV series - with a town coach complete with hammer cloth travelling the backstreets un-noticed - is simply absurd.
I simply do not know how frequently carriages - even hackney carriages (ie taxis) - would have been seen in Whitechapel Road, or even Commercial St, late at night. Does anyone have any information on this?
Phil
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Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1889
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 6:31 am: |
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Steve,
Would I think that? Moi??
The Met search was reported on October 19th, and was a one off, not through the course of the investigation. Though enquires were made during the investigation obviously, the sweep and leaflet handout occurred on the one day.
I agree, to check would have been difficult though not impossible. I think its worth remembering that dosses had their regular users, people who preferred certain lodgings. Obviously and with that said, I find it hard to believe Jack would stay in regular doss lodgings or doss lodgings at all. Im not saying he had his own private lodgings but a private rented room would make sense. Somewhere like 29 Hanbury st for example.
As for the Police beats, I think its important to note that on the night of Eddowes murder the City boys reversed their beats. So if Jack studied the beat then he would have studied Watkins from 9.45 that night.
Though I cannot say he was a resident of the area, he did know the area well. This is my opinion though.
Phil,
At night, the main thoroughfares would have been busy….or so have read (I think Paul Begg mailed me something on this so I shall look). According to one source the only time roads like Commercial or Whitechapel were clear, or damn near clear, was during the murder scare which would make sense I suppose.
As for stop/searches, these were done ad hoc only when the officers were suspicious. That said, according to Dew, PCs were stop/searching strangers to the area and not known locals. That said again, begs one to wonder how new Bobbies to the area knew local from stranger.
Cheers,
Monty
My prediction? 3-0 to us. 5-0 if the weather holds out. - Glenn McGrath
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 910
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 7:05 am: |
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My question was not about how busy the main thoroughfares were IN GENERAL - the east End seems to have teemed with life at all hours. I was interested in how often - at any time of day, CARRIAGES were likely to be seen in the main streets (let alone the back alleys).
Phil |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1890
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 7:14 am: |
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Phil
I was interested in how often - at any time of day, CARRIAGES were likely to be seen in the main streets (let alone the back alleys).
An impossible question to answer.
Monty
My prediction? 3-0 to us. 5-0 if the weather holds out. - Glenn McGrath
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Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 385
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 10:26 am: |
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Hi all,
Don't laugh but I had a dream about 25 years ago in which I saw the Ripper and he was a mid-teenager. This might explain why the women were unthreatened by him. I wonder how thoroughly teenage males were checked out around #29. From what I recall, there were a 14 and a 15 year-old who lived at #29. Just thought I'd throw that in for whatever it's worth.
Best wishes,
Stan |
Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 8:37 am: |
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Hey Stan,Phil
Having problems registering Stan because I dont walk too well and I have no printer,the one at the local library is not working so I'm outta luck 
The reason I asked about transport guys was not because I think our killer was ala' Stephen Knight and driving around Whitechapel in a carriage.
I think,from the circular pattern of the murder sites, that our man was centralised.If he did not actually live in Whitechapel that means he was travelling there.
IF he was travelling then he was not walking or using public transport on account that when he leaves he could have at least some bloodstains plus he is often in possesion of body parts - far too risky.
I still think our killer was a working class man, so maybe a pony and trap that he leaves parked in one of the yards?
In my opinion the murder sites are a circular pattern from a central location, our killer knew the area and knew it well leaving very little to chance. I believe the lull in October was as a result of the night of the double event,I think our man had a scare that night.
I do not believe Mary Kelly was a chance meeting. I think our man actually went in search of a woman with her own room because the street had become too risky, which added to the time between Eddowes killing and the death of Mary Kelly.
This man was 'invisible' he didnt have 'wild staring eyes' & he was not a 'toff' he was the kind of man that could pass you in the street and you would'nt look twice at, as Phil said....
A Whitechaopel man, of the poorer or unemployed classes, might not (would probably not, indeed) have had cuffs to worry about - jusy bare wrists or a sleeved vest of some kind.
...our invisible man.
As for how busy Whitechapel would have been well, cities never sleep, even today. With the amount of market/slaughterhouse/trading activity in and around Whitechapel I cannot imagine a quiet time of day or night.
Just going by the witness statements you very often have people who are going to work describing people who are on their way home after a nights drinking and remember,in 1888 London was THE city.
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Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 7:39 am: |
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Hi ho
If JTR was traipsing around Whitechapel in a horse drawn vehicle wouldnt he had to have left it in the street while conducting his business in Mitre Square, Millers Court and the back yard murder (not to mention Tabram if he did her as well). I just dont see an unaccompanied horse and vehicle parked unattended in the middle of the night not drawing attention of one kind or the other.
As for the Police beats, I think its important to note that on the night of Eddowes murder the City boys reversed their beats.
Regarding the beats and the Eddowes/double event ....if there are any PC programmers out there, how easy would it be to scan in a map of whitechapel and then show the beats of the various coppers as lines extending over time to give an idea of where their routes were taking them? I m always confused as to who was where at 4:15 am or whatever time and how the beats of different coppers were related to each other with time.
Mr P |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 386
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:27 pm: |
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Hi Steve,
If you email me your address, I will try to print out the form and mail it to you. I live in Illinois USA but that's no problem.
Stan |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 387
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:36 pm: |
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P.S.
I hope you can email me through here, Steve, without being registered.
Your point about the October lull being caused by a scare has happened before with other serial killers. That sort of mutes the point that they can't stop themselves.
Stan |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 913
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 12:40 pm: |
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I'm not sure that the presence and frequency of carriages in Whitechapel would be impossible to discover. An analysis of photographs might be a starting point. But (on the basis of commonsense) I would not consider them frequent unless evidence otherwise was produced.
I can see carriages conveying prosperous business men and others in from Essex, and cabs as taking doctors to and from the London Hospital. there were also music halls and places of entertainment in the East End to which more well-to-do patrons and artistes might have travelled by cab or carriage. But I don't see them as being the sort of thing that was common - I don't recall a single mention of one in all the testimony about comings and goings in Berner St, for instance. Then again, one might expect that some of the speakers at the Club might have got their by cab.
It just shows how much work there is to do on the social context of these crimes.
Phil |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1441
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 2:09 pm: |
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Phil
If you're including cabs, the O.S. map shows a long cab stand in Aldgate High Street just to the east of the junction with Commercial Street.
These cabs stands seem reasonably few and far between. I see another north of Norton Folgate, and more in Holborn and New [Blackfriars] Bridge Street to the west. Anyway, presumably in implies a fair amount of custom for cabs in Aldgate High Street. And a nice central location for the murders, too.
Chris Phillips
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2558
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 2:26 pm: |
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Bloody East End cab drivers!
They used to force women into their cabs in the LVP, throw them out somewhere, steal all their money, and then punch them when they objected.
My advice, take a mini cab.
What a mafia they were! |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 388
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 3:20 pm: |
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Hi all,
I'd think the Ripper would be taking a huge risk if he hailed a cab after a murder, that is, unless "his man" was in on the deal somehow.
Stan |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 916
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:21 pm: |
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Aldgate east is very much the fringes of the City, and presumably managers from the warehouses (such as Kearley and Tonge's in Mitre Square) might have needed transport.
Prosperous Jews from the big Synagogue nearby would also presumably have been in a position to hire a cab.
I assume the cabs would have been the four-wheelers (were they not called "growlers"?) rather than the handsoms. The four-wheelers were enclosed - so a man with bloodstains on him might have been protected from view once in the cab, and the driver on the box too far away and above to notice much on a dark night.
I still can't imagine that these cabs would have gone off the main streets though.
Phil |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 389
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 4:49 pm: |
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Hi Phil,
His biggest worry in a cab would have been the transfer of blood smears which would have been difficult to predict or prevent. When the driver saw those after a murder, I'd expect him to go to police and clue them in on where he left off his early morning fares.
Stan |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1894
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 4:13 am: |
|
Guys,
Cabs....a luxury for your average East ender?
After all, Hutchinson had to walk to Romford. Basically, what I am saying is, that if Jack used cabs the chap we are looking for is an affluent member of society...that correct?
Cheers,
Monty
PS Phil,
Nope, impossible.
My prediction? 3-0 to us. 5-0 if the weather holds out. - Glenn McGrath
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5061
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 8:38 am: |
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Mr Poster, Stephen's already done it.
http://casebook.org/victims/polly.crossneil.html#ani
http://casebook.org/police_officials/po-edward_watkins.html
http://casebook.org/police_officials/po-james_harvey.html
http://casebook.org/witnesses/schwartz.html
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5062
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 8:55 am: |
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Re cab stands, I wonder whether Bowles or Quaife were updated. I can only get early editions.
Robert |
Jeff Hamm
Chief Inspector
Username: Jeffhamm
Post Number: 696
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 11:19 pm: |
|
Hi,
For those who are interested, I posted some simplistic spatial analysis of the murder scenes in the "maps showing movement" thread. I do not suggest these as being at all definitive (in fact, they can be rather contraditory), but they do spark the imagination!
- Jeff |
Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 23, 2005 - 9:21 pm: |
|
Phil - you are THE man.
I don't recall a single mention of one in all the testimony about comings and goings in Berner St, for instance. Then again, one might expect that some of the speakers at the Club might have got their by cab.
See thats exactly my point! I cant remember reading one single report on the stopping of a horse drawn vehicle - invisible. You walk down the street and you KNOW there are cars passing by but you dont exactly 'notice' them.
How indelibly etched was it on the minds of the police that they we're looking for a man on foot?
Of course I realise this is all conjecture but if the killer was not actually from Whitechapel then a vehicle,parked in a central location, makes sense to me. I agree with Stan - a cab would have been too risky.
Stan - I can neither see your e-mail address nor PM you so.....could you mail me at edgy62@hotmail.com ? ....much appreciated Stan,your a gent' sir
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 941
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 4:34 pm: |
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But Steve - reverse thought a moment and think what you say.
I am in Berkeley Sqaure, London, or a prosperous part of Manhatten - whatever makes sense to you as a well-to-do area.
I would probably notice the banged up jallopey, I probably would not notice the seventh or eighth expensive sports car.
In Whitechapel and the East End in 1888, a cab or a cart might go unnoticed. A carriage would attract attention. In the West End both might go un-noticed. We must go beyond generalities and into specifics, I think.
Phil (da man!) |
Stanley D. Reid
Inspector
Username: Sreid
Post Number: 403
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 5:45 pm: |
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Hi all,
If I recall correctly, the use of a cart was an element of the Bury theory some how. Just going by memory here.
Stan |
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