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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 954
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 1:26 pm: | 
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Most of us are pretty much aware of the few "patterns" said to have been displayed by Stephenson-as-Ripper while he committed the crimes. The profaning of the cross, which is the pattern Stephenson himself claimed to see in his December '88 PMG article, The Whitechapel Demon, is where I'd like to start discussion.
Its worthy of repeating,that RDS claimed that the MJK murder was not a Ripper murder and that 6 were committed,not 5 or 7.
A while back,I attempted to show the possibility of two triangles being made [ not that that is a fact,but just a theory or an idea..], when one starts with Nichols,to Chapman,to Stride. The second triangle starts at Stride,to Eddowes and back to Chapman.
Strangely, I recieved a bit of criticism from other Stephenson adherents when I placed a rather clumsily concieved pair of triangles on this site,when in fact they are evident and as much so as the profaned cross, if one looks at the profaning from an angle and not as upright as some believe it to be. I can well understand anyone who dismisses RDS as a suspect for their consternation,but from fellow D'onstonites ? Hmmmmm......
Stephenson wrote under the nom de plume, Tautriadelta and was fond of drawing little triangles to ward off the bogeyman or spookworld,according to Cremers. Here are two incidents where triangles are mentioned. This isn't an unique finding,as I am certain others have seen the triangles being formed themselves from even a cursory glance and have read True Face or other reference sources themselves that touch on the triangles Sudden Death liked to make.
Nevertheless,it makes more sense to me [ just me in this case ] that the triangles or the profaning of the Cross appear without all the twisting,manipulating and coercion to see other configurations....such as the Vesica Pisces or pentagrams or arrows.
For example...why choose the Vesica Pisces? On Google,there were at one time, 4,060 references to this configuration. In all that time that I spent investigating these URL's, I couldn't locate one that emphasised specific evil or dark forces at work when this pattern was unveiled.
Now this isn't to say that the VP isn't possibly present in the layout of the East End. However there are some considerations,not only to this idea,but maybe of others that people have about a pattern other than the profaning and triangles...
As mentioned, RDS claims,and Harris was in agreement with this claim,that a profaning of the Cross was present using the 6, not 4,5, or 7 victims.Naturally, Stephenson is claiming Emma Smith and Martha Tabram were victims in this 6 victim list.... Both of these women were killed relatively close to each other by location. Tabram being killed in early August,but Smith in April. This is during the time Stephenson was in Brighton and months before his admission to the London Hospital....Perhaps some more bluster of a wannabe Ripper ?
Despite an above average knowledge of the occultist world, at no time is Stephenson known to have mentioned any other pattern to anyone.
Despite this above average awareness, we cannot be certain that RDS even knew about or considered using such a pattern as the VP. If so,this ordinarily pacifistic and non-threatening symbol seems strange to use. No one could have known,other than Stephenson,had he "enacted" it,because he never mentions it to anyone known.
So..with the addition of Tabram to the tally [ Stephenson was in London in early August...]and the exclusion of Kelly [ pretty unlikely,but nonetheless excluded in this hypothetical scenario ]...could RDS have known more than a person should have regarding this pattern of a profaned cross ?
Any ideas,pro or con,welcomed,regarding patterns or the possibility that the profaned cross or triangles may have been the intent of RDS-as-Ripper....
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 892
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 4:17 am: |
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Hi How,
Well, the two triangles idea really isn't all that different from the cross or arrow theory, as it uses the same points. Reusing the locations of the Chapman and Stride murders so that the same ground can be covered is about as arbitrary as deciding that all the points should be connected at Eddowes to make an arrow or to cross them all in the middle to make a cross. It's just some conscious decision to interpret the points in a specific way. None of the symbols mentioned by various theorists make any more sense than the others really. (Well, the major exception to that is the pentagram theory, as the locations are in completely the wrong spots for that.)
I know you've seen it already, but for those who haven't, I have a dissertation about the concept:
Connecting the Dots: Were the Ripper Crime Scenes Chosen to Form a Pattern?.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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c.d.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 2:15 pm: |
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Howard,
I read on the Casebook that Stephenson was staying at the Triangle Hotel in the 1891 census. A mere coincidence????.... I can almost see Rod Serling standing in the background smoking a cigarette. (If only I could spell that cool theme music).
c.d. |
Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 8:45 am: |
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Me again
Just had a close look at th every handy interactive map and something struck me. Everybody says that Jack the Ripper must have been familiar with Whitechapel but I want to put the following out for consideration:
1. All the murder sites seem very close to main/larrger streets to me (at least the ones marked in orange).
2. IF he had known Whitechapel very well surely he could have lured his victims a bit farther into the back streets to reduce his risk a little? Killing them near the bigger streets could indicate a lack of confidence about venturing down the streets that only a local would know but surely must have been a bit quieter.
3. Even the double event seems tied to main streets, as does the goulston graffite.
My first impression looking at that map is that the chap didnt know his way around that well and was therefore willing to source his victims or do the deeds on or just off the bigger streets.
Mr P. |
Steve Swift
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 3:18 pm: |
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One tiny problem with all this....Emma Smith was, in fact, attacked by at least three men so I dont see that it makes any difference if Stephenson was on the moon at the time, let alone in Brighton. |
Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 4:52 am: |
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Howdy
Another thing that affects how the statistics play out is that it's likely the killer wasn't being completely random in choosing locations even if he didn't try to make a pattern.
Just read the dissertation on patterns and have to applaud Dan Norder on the above which demosnstartes the complete nonsense of any classical statistical approach (not to mention that we are dealing with "small sample" statistics, a sample which may not even have the probability distribution necessary to do some of these statistical gymnastics and that in the squares described there is no reason to assume that all are equal as some may have more "space" in which to dump a body or kill someone) to looking at these killings.
The statistical approach was resurrected on another thread recently in relation to probabilities of one or two serial killers being in action based on statistics drawn from other populations and thats a non starter as well.
But I still think non classical statistics combined with GIS, socila information and other factors could be a help.
Mr P. |
c.d.
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, September 12, 2005 - 2:03 pm: |
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Howard,
Didn't the Ripper cut inverted triangles on Kate Eddowes' eyelids?
c.d. |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 965
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 13, 2005 - 6:32 pm: |
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C.D..
"Stephenson was staying at the Triangle Hotel in the 1891 census.."
Bingo,gringo ! Good memory old bean !
Mr.Poster...
Your points are well taken. One thing to take into consideration is that regardless of whatever street at that time [and at that time of night] in the East End, prostitutes could probably be found. The first four of the C5 murders are pretty far apart and if one looks at them, there does seem to be some semblance of a pattern to some,while others may not see one. Of course,this "spreading out' of killsites is pretty much a given as the Police,no doubt,would peruse those areas with greater and keener attention subsequent to a murder.
While I thoroughly enjoyed Dan's article in that issue of Ripper Notes, one crime that had a pattern and the mentioning of a pattern by a letter writer [ like Stephenson's profaned cross and his own article ] was the Zodiac Killer.
In case you weren't aware, a man took an acetate and placed it over the kill sites [ with a common theme of "water" being present,either in the form of a hydrant or lake,etc..] of the Zodiac's kill sites and discovered that there was a 57 degree angle present,which in mathematics is a radian angle.
In a letter decoded by this schoolteacher [ correct me Dan, if I am in error...or anyone else], there was the mentioning of radians in a letter...I'm not certain at the moment of all the details,and if anyone would like to present them here,I'd appreciate it...
I'm not stating as any sort of fact that the Zodiac actually intended the 57 degree radian angle as a part or "clue" within his murders...but it is worth considering.
I'd be hestitant to completely rule out any pattern present,although the obvious problem for someone who believes that there could be a pattern is....which one?
In addition,if Stephenson had chosen a Vesica Pisces as his "symbolic" gesture of evil, no one would have been the wiser at the time. It would make more sense to fabricate a symbol with diabolical overtones [pentagram,profaned cross,horns,all that mumbo jumbo ] instead of one basically a sign of pacivity. Even the recreation of the "death rune" which to the hippies meant peace [ that peace sign ] but to our pagan ancestors from the North it meant death , would be a little more plausible.
One problem with the passive VP is that in occult circles, almost universally the symbol of preference is a pentagram.
So..moving right along..Has anyone ever seen the VP used with any sort of negative connotation ?
C.D.: There are at least three written or stated theories that I know of regarding the markings...
One is obviously that of a ritual marking,that Ivor Edwards proposes...However, site member Jon Smyth,made some contributions to the site with another explanation that while in the act of trying to remove Eddowes' nose off, the blade made those marks independently of any "ritual marking". David Radka has theorized that they are tailoring marks. I've seen comments that the Ripper attempted to make Eddowes appear as some sort of "harlequin"...there may be more,C.D. |
Baron von Zipper
Sergeant
Username: Baron
Post Number: 37
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 1:47 am: |
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Y'know, a pattern can be found in anything, but that doesn't mean there is a pattern, just the will of someone to find one. Why would someone want to kill people in a pattern of a cross or a pentagram? The guy must have walked the streets many nights in a row and brought a notebook and a map with him so he could denote the exact locations that whores were in, at the hours he knew he could be out and about. Maybe Stride wasn't where she was supposed to be according to his calculations, so he killed her because he was pissed off, then he got lucky 45 minutes later. Thank goodness, because the stars were surely aligned that evening in such a way that he would garner favor from the dark god he worshipped.
It really is insane. Why not find a douser and look for ley lines? Maybe he was a Feng Shui practitioner and the hapless whores really ruined the alignment of Whitechapel.
Am I missing something that is really possible?
Cheers
Mike the Mauler
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Spiro
Police Constable
Username: Auspirograph
Post Number: 1
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 8:09 am: |
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Hi all,
There exists some considerable doubt on the authorship of the article in the Pall Mall Gazette of 1st December 1888 under the pseudonym "One Who Thinks He Knows". Upon this article alone, a great edifice of elaborate theories has been advanced as solutions to the Whitechapel murders. So it would be reasonable, I think, to at least review the basis for assuming that Robert Donston Stephenson actually wrote it.
The author suggests, as an original thought, that the murders were fashioned on the unholy tenets of black magic and devilish design. He states that “in the practice of evocation the sacrifice of human victims was a necessary part of the process, and the profanation of the cross and other emblems usually considered sacred was also enjoined.”
These are highly problematic comments to make. The profanation of “other emblems usually considered sacred” is where I believe the idea for the East End Vesica Pisces originated. It was developed by Mr Edwards based on the work of Henry Lincoln author of “Holy Blood, Holy Grail” and the source text for the highly popular “Da Vinci Code” by Dan Brown.
The coincidental occurrence of near-perfection of the layout of the first four canonical victim sites Edwards measured and, led by the pressing need to include Mary Kelly in the overall schemata, the Vesica Pisces was born to satisfy all these requirements on the ordinance map available to the killer. By association, the Vesica Pisces is the embodiment of the feminine mystical virility reversed to symbolize the sacred harlot.
I would argue that even though these ideas may be useful for hallucinogenic experiences, they do not directly solve murder cases even today. The Zodiac killer demonstrated acute and confirmed astrological symbolism but the police are no closer to a solution. Ideas and ideals may motivate some killers but not, in my view, are they always clear evidence of their identity.
Yes, the murder sites of Nicols, Chapman, Stride and Eddowes fall over the East End in the form of a Calvary cross generally in the four cardinal points that determined the original layout of the Whitechapel district. It is only natural and generally agreed that the Ripper stayed close to the main roads. This does not prove that the murderer actually intended the victims to honour the speculative Dark Lord that Jack supposedly served.
If indeed the Ripper had satanic intentions for the Whitechapel murders, if nothing else, they demonstrate a complete bumble-head amateur in the black arts. Designs are not evidence of anything; they are only too human perceptions of natural events and possibilities just like witness statements.
This is no new idea either for the murders. In the Pall Mall Gazette of 3rd October 1888 under the title “How to catch the murderer: More suggestions by the public”, a few examples from London’s morning papers are condensed. An anonymous letter to the editor posits this classic “The cryptogrammatic dagger.--In examining the chart representing the locality of the Whitechapel murders, says one, it is curious to observe that lines drawn through the spots where the murders were committed assume the exact form of a dagger, the hilt and blade of which pass through the scenes of the sixth, second, first and third murders, the extremities of the guard making the fourth and fifth. Can this possibly afford a clue to the position of the next atrocity?”
This journalistic gem is only matched by a letter to the editor of the Pall Mall Gazette dated 6th December 1888 where an excerpt will suffice: “Under some circumstances I might comment upon the inferences drawn by your contributor, "One Who Thinks He Knows," from the fact that straight lines, drawn through the point at which the outrages were committed cross one another, but, remembering that I am in a country where Mr. Ignatius Donnelly (Victorian Pyramidologist) and his Great Cryptogram are the subjects of serious discussion, I, as a native of a frivolous land, abstain from saying more than that I am myself engaged in preparing a diagram by which I hope to prove that the crimes were really the work of a Unionist who is gradually marking out in the East end of London an exact reproduction of the Union Jack.”
In “The True Face of Jack the Ripper” Melvin Harris quotes Vittoria Cremers as saying that “when I chanced to mention it to Mabel Collins she explained that the article was one written by Lord Crawford (1847-1913) for the Pall Mall Gazette, suggesting that Jack the Ripper was a black magician”. pp 47.
Harris goes on to explain on pp 117 that the attribution of the article by Cremers and Collins to Lord Crawford is indeed wrong. Here he states “authorship was partly revealed in an amusing fragment written by W.T.Stead, on 3rd December 1888”.
The fragment is: "One Who Thinks He Knows" - the contributor in question - is an occultist of some experience. When he was a lad of eighteen he studied necromancy under the late Lord Lytton at Alexandria. It would be odd if the mystical lore of the author of Zanoni were to help unearth Jack the Ripper”.
But this could also be a reference to Lord Crawford as he is known to be a contemporary of Bulwer-Lytton and heavily involved with the Victorian Occult Revival. Indeed all of the ideas of the 1st December Pall Mall Gazette article could be comfortably attributed to the interests of Lord Crawford.
In Stephen Ryder’s article “Emily and the Bibliophile: A Possible Source for Macnaghten's Private Information”, there is a note that states that “Other writers still contend that Crawford was indeed the author of the article (PMG 1st Dec), most recently L. Perry Curtis in Jack the Ripper and the London Press”.
L. Perry Curtis writes, “The Gazette revealed only that the author was ‘an experienced occultist,’ who had studied necromancy under Lord Lytton in Alexandria. For this reason Whittington-Egan and, Wilson and Odell assigned authorship to the Earl of Crawford”. The source for this information is Begg et al., A to Z, pp 432-35.
A cursory check on Victorian periodicals and their contributors doesn’t even show that Stephenson was a contributor with the Pall Mall Gazette though it’s plausible he wrote the early 1889 articles on Rider-Haggard’s “She”. An inquiry with the London Press Club on Stephenson as a Victorian press contributor also failed to yield a result.
The real notion that satanic ritual murder is unfortunately satiated with the intricacies of preparation, design and privacy argues against the Ripper having planned the layout to profane any symbol over the East End based on the available and reasonably confirmed facts of the case. |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 968
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 11:03 am: |
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Spiro:
Spectacular post,my man ! I'm aware of where the VP idea came about [ from Lincoln,et al..],but as you know,not the why.
Thanks for bringing up the PMG article that predated the "Whitechapel Demon" by almost two months !
...because that is one thing that has been on my list for a while now...did RDS write the "One Who Knows" as his version of a previously written piece,much like,if not exactly what he did with the faux "She" story in 1889 !!??
Was Stephenson simply perpetuating a myth of a pattern with his story [ which has several errors,as we know],based on a previous article,like the follow up to Haggard? This is an important question.
Harris may have been in error to assume RDS was the actual author [ primarily for the non-inclusion of the author's name with the article] if the involvement of Crawford was as considerable as you point out. Admittedly,I knew of Crawford's involvement in the V.O.Revival, but not to the extent that you indicated. Thanks for that additional information.
One thing that could work against Crawford's authorship,is that he was born in France. I'm not certain,yet,as to how long,or if he recieved a French education. Because one of the errors in the WD article is the reference to "Juives" being a general term for Jews...and if Crawford did study at an early age in France,well, you know the rest... If he did,and you know,could you point that out,Spiro,and save us some time? Thanks.
Likewise,thanks for the Dec.PMG reference to the Union Jack design.
Maybe we need a thread under Stephenson for Lord Crawford, eh, Spiro ???
...and not to forget,Crawford would have been 18 in 1865. Maybe we could check to see if Lord Lytton was still involved with the "black arts" during that period of time...
Important post,Spiro. |
Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 2:22 am: |
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Hello
trying to find patterns in the JTR kill sites is like finding cancer clusters aound power lines....its the Texas sharpshooter fallacy and can never prove anything without more information.
But I still think that a local man would have had murder sites deeper in Whitechapel. AS Howard says "One thing to take into consideration is that regardless of whatever street at that time [and at that time of night] in the East End, prostitutes could probably be found. " so this would say to me that a local man could have found a victim anywhere and as he seems to have dosplayed a predeliction for doing lots of cutting, surely he would have ventured deeper in, led the victim to a queit site of his choosing and enjoyed himself to th efull without the risk associated with some of the actual sites murders were commited at.
The fact that the prostitutes (at least some of them) led him to where they wanted to go definitely suggests that he was not local but rather may hav eknown the main streets of the area.
There is less evidence existing to show he was local than evidence for any of the other ¨things we believe (age, height, trade etc.) and yet the local facet seems to appear again and again. Many of the police of the time seemed to think he might have not been local (Druitt for example) and they do not seem to have held it as sacrosant that he was.
Mr P |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 970
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 14, 2005 - 2:44 pm: |
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"The fact that the prostitutes (at least some of them) led him to where they wanted to go definitely suggests that he was not local but rather may have known the main streets of the area..."
We don't know if thats the case,Mr. Poster. We don't know what the details are regarding whom led whom to where.
I agree with the idea that at best,any pattern being present is just a theory and nothing more.
Its impossible to determine whether a pattern was intended or not and especially since Stephenson who is more than likely, not definitely, the author of the December 1st article [ Stead paid him,its claimed, 4 pounds for this article.] may have just been imitating a previous writer for the same paper with an explanation-for-profit-on his own.... |
Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, September 18, 2005 - 4:36 am: |
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Hello Howard
We have to assume that Mary Kelly led him to Millers Court.
And was there not a mention that Hanbury street had been used before by the victim (I could be wrong on that).
But, as said above, its very hard to know anything. I like the train station idea though.
Mr P |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1010
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 21, 2005 - 5:01 pm: |
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Dear Mr.P
Kelly would be the exception to a victim guiding the Ripper or her killer,if not necessarily the Ripper.
Actually,Mr. P.....I was really questioning whether some sort of geometric pattern was present [ at least on this thread ]not whether the victims-leading-the-Ripper-as-a-pattern. But thats cool man..
What do you think ? See a geometric pattern?
How Brown
Owner
JTR Forums.com
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Spiro
Police Constable
Username: Auspirograph
Post Number: 2
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 2:45 pm: |
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It would appear that Mr Poster has lost the plot of this thread with endless speculation and baseless posturing. Oh well...the title is "Open forum for discussion" and I have enjoyed the many posts advanced so far.
Howard you write: "Thanks for bringing up the PMG article that predated the "Whitechapel Demon" by almost two months !
...because that is one thing that has been on my list for a while now...did RDS write the "One Who Knows" as his version of a previously written piece,much like,if not exactly what he did with the faux "She" story in 1889 !!??
Was Stephenson simply perpetuating a myth of a pattern with his story [ which has several errors,as we know],based on a previous article,like the follow up to Haggard? This is an important question."
I agree that it is and one that crossed my mind too. That 3rd October 1888 Pall Mall Gazette entry suggests that the idea of patterns over the East End locations of the murders existed well before the 1st Dec PMG article was commissioned and I would bet my last dime there were other precedants.
What better way to expand and develop stories for an editor of a publication hungry for new angles to the Whitechapel murders. Especially after the murder of Mary Kelly, demise of Warren and gradual withdrawal of the resources of the investigating police.
Just as we do today, people in Victorian times also advanced and projected their perceptions and ideologies as solutions to the murders. A crisis in any society has traditionally led to weirdness and "witch burnings". Why not the idea that Jack was a black magician killing for demonic glory and spare parts for his homunculus who, gestalt like, plays in the sand-pit of the Vesica Piscis.
Incidently, the latin term VP, literally means "bladder or sac of the fish". The sac of course was taken as the feminine membrane of the womb, and in combination with the early Christian attribution of Christ and his followers to the fish, the idea developed during the medieval period to denote the mother of the savior Mary. It is this symbol that Edwards claims was profaned in the murders.
Interesting ideas I'm sure you'd agree but how on earth did this ever get construed to imply the murder and mutilation of Mary Kelly as the sacred harlot I'm at a loss to explain. Do the Whitechapel events trigger such soulful and mystical experiences to help explain and bring peace to them now as then? A simple prayer for the unfortunate victims would suffice than to spin such elaborate theories for the existance of patterns to the crimes in my view.
Even Mr Lincoln, co-author of "The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail", sees patterns as sacred meaning and intent. It is only the author of the Pall Mall Gazette "Whitechapel Demon" article, whoever that may be, advances the theory that Jack was motivated by occult notions based on the works of Eliphias Levi. It is only this author, and developed by modern misinformed dabblers of exploratory survey, who have constructed a livelihood from exponential deduction.
What that means is anyones guess but it is my humble contribution to the patterns found in this Jacky the Gripper's mystery. The search continues...
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Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1025
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 3:09 pm: |
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...exponentially at that,Spiro.
The thing about the VP, it that despite its geometric possibility of it "being there",so to speak, in terms of being able to see one, that doesn't mean Stephenson even knew about this design.
The important thing about the VP, what is the sine qua non of the whole theory,is that it is absolutely necessary for Stephenson to have known Kelly prior to the murders. I believe Dave Knott mentioned something similar to this before, that he had to know Kelly..
Yet one wonders why he didn't take advantage of her at the time they originally "met" and not face the possibility of Kelly having a room mate in the future [Nov.9 ] and do away with her at that time,when they were alone.. and THEN murder the other 4 women at or near their respective site. The argument is that Kelly may have had a room mate when they met...but if they did meet,it wasn't to discuss the Fenian movement...and why wouldn't they go off to her flat !?
But of course,Spiro...you'll see blue snow before anyone who supports the VP explains that.
Another solid post,buddy...
How Brown
Prop.
WWW.JTRForums.com
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Spiro
Police Constable
Username: Auspirograph
Post Number: 3
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 4:13 pm: |
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Howard,
I would agree that the existence of the VP even if it was planned doesn't prove that Stephenson knew of it. But I would say that's unlikely if he truly was versed in arcane subjects.
The VP was well known at the time and as I've mentioned, it blossomed in the Gothic and Medieval architectural style of church-buliding from that period. So the Victorians were not ignorant of its presence only we moderns generally are.
The VP was definitely available to Stephenson, if he indeed is the only suspect for the pre-planning theories of the murders, but as you say its a big ask to fit the theory to the facts of the case without complex and self-defeating arguments.
The problem I have with the VP theory is that it depends for its life on the initial starting-point of calculation of the patterns from Mary's Miller's Court pad and extended back over the remaining canonical victims. A theory of this nature demands absolute accuracy and in the Ripper murders, as is clear, there are simply too many variables especially in the number of victims currently being questioned.
Your reasoning on the Ripper's past friendship with Mary Kelly is highly relevant and still unclear but a major point in the implication of the killer. I don't think Fenian leanings would have included participation in occult designs over East End London though anything is possible especially with a pretty lass if she be so willing.
So if the measurements from the canonical victims are indeed too accurate for coincidence and indicative of pre-planning of the murders, this does not prove who did it. It would therefore appear a subject more suited and relevant to the Sauniere Society than to Ripperology. Possibly it is to advance our knowledge of Victorian studies as the Maybrick Diary has done that we should be grateful for these efforts.
In the event that a simple cross pattern was adhered too, then I would be more curious of the possibilities. But in the vacuum that is the Whitechapel case claims of this sort by Harris, Edwards or future cartographers are simply opinions and perceptions arn't they.
Good points though! |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1026
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 4:24 pm: |
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Spiro:
When I remarked about what they would be discussing [ the Fenian comment ] .....
...... I was being sarcastic. What I meant,without the sarcasm this time, is that if RDS had met Kelly, they would have been discussing a sexual liason....and nothing else....and before Nichols was murdered...or maybe Tabram,if we objectively include her in the mix... What in the world would Kelly waste her time on a guy like him for in the first place,but sex..or money ?
Its my understanding now,that one "researcher" or at least one guy interested in the perpetuation of the VP "theory" claims that he may have found out if Kelly and Sudden Death actually knew each other.
Get ready for the blue snow,Spiro.....
How Brown
Prop.
WWW.JTRForums.com
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Spiro
Police Constable
Username: Auspirograph
Post Number: 4
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 4:49 pm: |
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Well if and when Stephenson talked and imbibed with Mary Kelly, there would certainly have been talk and gossip.
As Frank Zappa once infamously wrote "Don't you eat that yellow snow".
Blues are OK! Fats Domino survived Katrina and all is well in the world again! |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1027
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 25, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
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Spiro...
Yeah,Fatty got his reluctant ass outta New Orleans. Next time,lets hope he arpeggio's it out of town before he drowns. He may be a kitten on the keys,but svelte he ain't ! Such a fresser,oy !
But you see what I mean don't you,Spiro ? As if the initial contact of Kelly and RDS was in regard to anything else but sex. Gimme a break...
So...if this initial contact was about sex..what are we expected to believe...
That Kelly kept an open date or made a rain check with RDS and promised an empty flat for Stephenson in the future? Yeah....right !!!!
I can just see a prostitute writing an entry in her date book..."Remember the gentleman who makes little triangles and has the worn out clothes...he says he'll come round to see me...soon."
How Brown
Prop.
WWW.JTRForums.com
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c.d.
Police Constable
Username: Cd
Post Number: 6
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 1:50 pm: |
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Howard,
Unfortunately my knowledge of the occult is pretty much limited to dressing up as a hobo on Halloween. However, I am aware that serious practicioners of the occult take great pains to be as exact and precise as possible because of the enormous powers they are trying to control. Crossing the t's and dotting the i's makes a lot of sense since screwing up can have disastrous consequences. Therefore, my question is do you know how precise and accurate the Vesica Pisces or any other figure for that matter had to be? It would seem that if Jack was trying to be as accurate as possible that he would have to follow a particular prostitute to see where she generally took her customers. I just can't see him saying "a little to the left. OK now back this way a couple of inches."
Also, I posted this question on another thread but never got an answer. I seem to recall that Kate Eddowes' mortuary drawings were found in a pipe in a London hospital. I don't know if it was the one that Stephenson was staying in. Does that ring a bell with you? Thanks.
Hey, I am registered now!!!
c.d. |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1029
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 5:55 pm: |
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C.D...
Therefore, my question is do you know how precise and accurate the Vesica Pisces or any other figure for that matter had to be?
No,C.D., I don't. I'd guess within a reasonable distance from one point to another to come reasonably close to a design,regardless of what design was intended to be implemented.
You've got me there,C.D. I am not aware of the mortuary photos and Eddowes and the Hospital.
Could you elaborate?
Thanks
How Brown
Prop.
WWW.JTRForums.com
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c.d.
Police Constable
Username: Cd
Post Number: 7
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 26, 2005 - 9:32 pm: |
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Howard,
To be honest with you, I am not really sure where I read that. It might have been in an issue of Ripperologist. To the best of my recollection, a copy of Kate Eddowes's mortuary sketches were found in a pipe in a London hospital many years after the fact. I guess a renovation was taking place. I could have sworn I read this in connection with an article on Stephenson. Jeez, maybe they're right when they say beer kills brain cells. Can anyone else shed light on this? (I mean the sketches not the beer thing).
c.d. |
Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 6:51 am: |
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Hello again Howard B.
I was at this again. If MJK is eliminated or weven shifted slightly towards the centre, then the points make a failry spooky regular quadrilateral of two almost equal triangles. Which shocked me a bit. But eliminating points to force shapes is a bit tenuous also.Possibly.
Mr P. |
Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, September 24, 2005 - 6:28 am: |
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Hello Howard Brown
As suggested (sort of), I have taken the "interactive map" in the victime section, clicked Show All, dumped it to a graphics program and removed point 7 (the goulston st thingy). I left martha Tabram at Location 1 in the picture.
Looking at it as I type (I dont know how to include the graphic here so sorry for that) and forming first impressions.
Points 1,2, and 5 appear to form a reasonably straight line dictated by Whitechapel Road- Aldgate something.
3, 6 and 5 alos appear to form a straight line.
An arrow shap can be discerned pointing south west with point 5 at the apex. Removing point 1 (tabram) removes the impression.
The distances between the following are approximately the same:
3 and 2, 2 and 4, 2 and 1, 5 and 4,
The angle between point 3 and the line defined approximately by 5-1-2 appears to be similar to the angle between point 4 and the line as is expected for an arrow shape.
The relationships that are possible appear to depend very much on location 1 (Tabram) being a JTR case.
I see no cruciform shapes, no geometric patterns. The positioning of the sites is more related to my mind, and as has been said before, by the locations of main streets.
Call me blind, but I just do not see any meaningful shape. The number of points is too few to assign any geometric pattern with certainty. Leaving out point 1, the only thing I can say, and its tenuos, is a straight line between 3,6 and 5 and thats dodgy in th eextreme.
People should remeber: it takes 3 geometric points to say "straight line" with any level of mathematical certainty. Plus, the concept of triangles is tricky as with any more than 3 points, I can make a number of triangle. The presence of triangles is only becuase there were more than 3 sites. If there were a series of regular triangles....maybe. Plus the cuts on the faces....a triangle is the simplest geometrical shape to make and the easiest. If he had cut squares or pentagrams I would say "Wow" but he didnt. He cut the absolute simplest shape possible and the one thats easiest to make with a knife in meat.
If I am wrong about this can someone please enlighten me?
Mr P
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Mr Poster
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - 7:27 am: |
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Hello
regarding who led who to the murder sites, Sugden seems to conclude or at the very least allude to the fact that it seems that it was the prostitutes who decided where they were going to.
At least two of them were looking for money for their doss which they had just left. If their murder sites are close to their prospective doss house then that surely indicates that it was them who decided where they were going to? Why would a prostitute who had gone out with th eexpress purpose of getting money for the bed for the night want to wander off with a client when she could do the deed as near a spossible to where she was trying to get money to go back to? Especially if they were not feeling the best and a bed must have been pretty high up the priority list?
Mr P. |
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