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Judit Toth
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 11:46 pm: | 
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Except for some very vague and general bits of information I knew nothing of this case until I met the Casebook by accident. Too much information, however, may sometimes cause more confusion, one sees the details but looses the picture.
I spent about 10 hours reading the victims and suspects sections, and just letting these pictures and events sink in without trying to form an opinion.
To me there is one very convincing piece of testimony repeated by various persons in various forms: on more than one occasion the bodies were dissected at a speed that is outside the skills of an everyday person. One of the doctors performing a post mortem said that even he would have needed double or triple the length of time for performing those acts than that available to the murderer. To me this signifies two things: great strength and good expertise in cutting up bodies. Doctors who do surgery or autopsy will proceed with great skill, but great strength and rapidity of action are not what they need in their work. This is the butcher. See him standing by his job and knowing perfectly well how to severe the skin from flesh, flesh from bone proceeding swiftly by easy effortless movements, picking to pieces cattle, lamb or hog in a matter of minutes. Forget about painters, royalty, old physicians, midwives - the deed was as impossible for them to carry out as lifting a weight of a 100 kg or running a 100 meters distance in 10 seconds. Test this: make a mental effort, try to imagine having the sharpest of knives and cut up the flesh if not of a human body, than of a hog; in the matter of 10 minutes achieve what he achieved.
The source of this information - the doctor/s performing the post mortem, is about as reliable, as objective as is humanly possible - this is a fact that must not be omitted, it is something to bear continuously in mind when trying to draw a picture of the perpetrator.
Another fact that to me is indisputable - the person committing these deeds was mentally ill to an extent that must have been obvious to at least people living under the same roof with him. To kill a human being with a knife, or poison, to beat somebody to pulp, to go berserk with a sword or gun and kill half a dozen people are things one may commit in great anger, under the effect of drugs or alcohol, jealousy, greed, and still be normal. To cut up the victim's body with the intention of trying to hide evidence, however horrendous, still goes along the path of ordinary reasoning. So is any killing with the purpose of obtaining organs to sell or experiment with. The deeds of this person are utterly different, and even though he may have had a logical explanation for what he did, its logic must be of a deranged mind.
Looking through the list of suspects I tried to pick one which would help me the best to see the acts with the eyes of the murderer, to think with his mind.
I picked Jacob Levy. And started my journey. This is what I find.
A lust to kill.
An irresistible urge to feel that living body struggling under his strength and than going limp.
There is no hate.
This is a way of fulfilling an urge as strong as or stronger than sexual desire. Having full control of a woman's body to realize all the fantasies accumulated in so many years. There is no hate just this urge to have a woman's body to cut up instead of the animal carcasses. To feel the knife run through softer tissues, touch softer skin, open up and explore a woman's body completely. Cut the face and see what makes her smile. Try how the knife slides in her liver. Cut her apart and arrange everything around her nicely, maybe even tenderly. Take away some parts, to cherish where no one can disturb him. Take away the symbol of her womanhood with him. Beneath all there was the sexual drive, as the legs drawn up and apart signify, but he wanted more and other than that simple pleasure. What he must have felt - racing heart, dizziness, ecstasy, a godlike power, it must have been more intense than any lover's experience.
From the inside of his mind nothing needs an explanation, just as a lover would need no explanation for his acts.
From the outside - he is ill. Let the doctors find the name for his illness, if that is important.
To come back to normality: Jacob Levy from the known suspects fits this picture, but he is not necessarily the one committing the murders.
If I researched this and if such records existed, I would look for lunatic asylum records of the time, trying to find persons fitting this image and fitting the timeframe. I would also do research on how animals were killed and cut up at the time, and if there was a difference in the practices of Jewish and non-Jewish butchers.
Bearing in mind the therapy available for mentally ill people at the time, I would not think this person could get better by any means. This is not a condition which would heal spontaneously. If he did not commit any more of the acts, it to me indicates, that he was not in a position to do so anymore.
I first thought that I would read what I could from the forum discussions but changed my mind, because I did not want to be influenced in any way. Not for pigheadedness, but because the "journey" I took would have been then biased.
As all those involved have been dead for a long time, it might be more interesting to find out what his personality was than to know whether his name was John Smith or Jack Straw, or Jacob Levy...
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Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 525
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 10:42 am: |
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"Cut the face and see what makes her smile. Try how the knife slides in her liver. Cut her apart and arrange everything around her nicely, maybe even tenderly. Take away some parts, to cherish where no one can disturb him. Take away the symbol of her womanhood with him. "
Wow. I cannot see ANY evidence of tenderness or love or respect in the acts of Jack. Far from it.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Diana
Chief Inspector
Username: Diana
Post Number: 763
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 12:02 pm: |
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Judit, I agree with you. Also Jack had another skill that doctors don't have -- fast, efficient throat slitting. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2448
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 6:38 pm: |
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‘Legs drawn up and apart’.
So such a victim must have been the object of a man’s sexual lust eh?
I have banged on about this for years.
When a person’s throat is cut it is perfectly normal for the dying person to part their legs, bring their knees up and place their feet solidly on the floor.
Here is a case of murder from the Old Bailey, 1828, where the poor women was killed by a robber for her gold and nothing else:
‘Bonnick saw the deceased laying on the floor - I took the candle out of his hand, and saw the body laying about four feet from the window; the head was nearest to the window, and further from the fire than the feet - she laid rather on her right side - her right arm was under her, and her other hand was clenched; her feet were planted straight on the floor, as if she had been standing on them, and her knees up; her throat was cut - she was dead; there was a great quantity of blood on the floor, in one particular part of the room; I do not think the body had been moved since the throat had been cut; the blood appeared to have flown from the wound; the blood was on the right side of the body, inclining to the fire-place:’
Now you aint gonna get a better description of how a person reacts when their throat is slit then that; and please remember there was only one motive in this crime, and that was robbery.
If I see one more post on any thread about how Jack’s victim’s were ‘posed’ I shall spit the few teeth I no longer have.
Give it up!
Legs apart do not mean sex in death. |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 892
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 9:21 pm: |
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Spare the spitting of teeth,my dear A.P. !
From what Ms.Toth [ fine old Hungarian name,by the way...] posted, she's picked up on the intent of Mrs. Eddowes' kidney....mentions organs as a possible goal/motive...and the wherewithall to perform such monstrous feats...
Of course,Ms. Toth is leaning towards a sexual serial killer,by the text of her intense post....
It remains to be seen exactly what JTR's motivation was [ if thats possible ] but I side with you,A.P....people in death agony will wind up in a position similar to what the poor victims of JTR were inevitably found...
Why not register,Ms. Toth? Two Hungarians could turn this joint upside down.....
(Message edited by howard on August 30, 2005) |
Judit Toth
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 8:24 pm: |
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ah, ok - this is not what I came here for.
have a nice day. |
MJT
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 12:58 pm: |
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I've had a suspicion that Jack might have been a butcher and not a surgeon.
Apparently he used a hatchet in the murder of Mary Kelly. That's not exactly the instrument of a surgeon/doctor, but maybe for a butcher or sluaghterer? |
Mike the Mauler
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 12:10 pm: |
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Judit,
With all due respect, a hunter can gut a deer in a matter of a few minutes, and that would be including cutting out the liver and lights with which to make venison haggis, if one so desired. A slaughterhouse worker is even quicker, so is a butcher. Nothing extraordinary in the Saucy one's work. It wasn't neat, and it wasn't so precise. A surgeon would have to take longer because he would have to worry about what he was severing (Oops, that was your carotid you say? Spot of bad luck, what?).
I believe, if I had the propensity to slaughter someone, taking the uterus and whatnot, I could do it rather quickly if I fancied my work. I am educated, but have completed no medical coursework, just 7 or 8 psych courses that were required, yet my rudimentary knowledge of anatomy would be sufficient for that sort of thing in my estimation.
I think the thing doctor proponents forget is, this wasn't surgery. It could be done haphazardly and quickly as there was no life at stake, nor livelihood. That being said, it doesn't mean it wasn't a doctor either.
Pardon me, I have to go gut some fish.
Mike |
Danish Dynamite
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, September 17, 2005 - 4:50 pm: |
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"ah, ok - this is not what I came here for.
have a nice day."
Judit, i perfectly agree with you... though i have a question to all those "Holier than Thou Ripperologists":
Where is the Jacob Levy thread?
I'm serious... couldn't find it.
Have a nice day. |
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