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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2045
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 5:39 am: | 
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Hi Stan,
Why don't we try to show the flaws in ideas, so they don't become commonplace?
Why don't we all realize that this case isn't personally connected to us, so when an idea or thought is shown to be wrong there is no need to hang onto it like it was the last iota of oxygen on the planet.
Well said - I agree with you totally.
The flaws in my ideas concerning Macnaghten's actions have been pointed out to me, and I am happy to do more reading before commenting further on the Druitt theory.
Good luck with your own theory, by the way.
Love,
Caz
X |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 957
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 11:48 am: |
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Regarding Montague's final rail journeys, I think I have a clear idea:
The season pass from the South Eastern Railway (some early accounts mistakenly say "South Western") would only indicate "Blackheath" and "London." The Blackheath railway station used in 1888 is still in use today and is about ten minutes' walk from Eliot Place. Service from Blackheath to London terminated at either Charing Cross or Cannon Street. London Bridge and Waterloo Junction (Waterloo East today) would also be considered London destinations and the pass would probably be valid for any of these four destinations.
The second half return ticket was that of a ticket issued for travel between Charing Cross and Hammersmith. Unlike modern Tube tickets, those issued in 1888 had specific stations written on them (this I have confirmed with the London Transport Museum). This travel would have been on the Distirct Railway. (This is a little confusing because it was actually the "Metropolitan District Railway" then and was sometimes called the "Metropolitan." But this is not to be confused with the separate "Metropolitan Railway"). See this link for an 1889 map of the system.
Is it possible that Montague did not use his season pass that Saturday, Dec. 1 and that he spent Friday night in London at his legal Chambers in King's Bench walk? This is most unlikely since his ticket was issued from Charing Cross. Although Charing X is not far from KBW, the Temple station would be much closer and that is where Montague would have caught the District line had he slept at his chambers Friday night.
Therefore, we conclude that Druitt spent Friday night in Blackheath. He used his season pass to travel from Blackheath to London Charing Cross (my guess is early in the morning). At Charing Cross he then purchased a return ticket to Hammersmith, the first half of which he used and the second half was found on his body.
For those of you who have not heard it before, I will just say briefly here that although Hammersmith station is not far from three potentially important locations -- (1) Thornycroft's Wharf where his body was found, (2) Tuke's Assylum, and (3) the Ossiers or Harry Wilson's house -- there were closer stations to these locations available to Druitt had he intended to go there (e.g. Ravenscourt Park, Turnham Green).
It seems pointless to me to argue about whether or not the ticket would be legible after a month in the water. It clearly was legible from the news account and it was dated Dec. 1. Therefore, unless you suppose someone threw Druitt's body in the Thames shortly before it was found AND planted a Dec. 1 ticket on him, you must conclude even if it surprises you that the ticket was legible after a month in the water.
Also, anyone care to comment on my earlier post in this thread re: MM's "private information" and "certain facts"?
Andy S. |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 725
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 1:00 pm: |
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Re the return ticket found on Druitt, I was interested to see that the London "suicide" bombers on 7 Jul had purchased return tickets from Luton.
This caused some speculation as to whether they expected to die, or were misled by someone that they would be able to get away before their bombs exploded.
I will be fascinated to see whether the police reach any conclusion on this. It might be a useful point of discussion for Druitt's motivation in regard to buying a return.
Phil
PS - Thanks for the kind words above. Much appreciated. |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 960
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 4:02 pm: |
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I would presume the terrorists purchased return tickets for much the same reason I believe Druitt did: to give them the option to return if the plan changed.
In the case of the terrorists, if something had happened that would have caused them to abort the plan, the return portion of the ticket would gave them an easy way to return without the risk of raising suspicion at another ticket counter. In the case of Druitt, if he had found a solution to his dilemma at Hammersmith he could have returned to Blackheath and destroyed the suicide note before anyone had found it.
Andy S. |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 728
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 4:05 pm: |
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Andy - your logic is irrefutable. The inference is, of course, that he went to Hammersmith not with the absolute intention of killing himself but to meet someone, or do something, aimed to solve a problem. I endorse that view.
What will interest me in the case of the terrorists is whether the authorities come to the same conclusion.
Phil |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2339
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 4:14 pm: |
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Hi Andrew and Hello again Phil!
Just a thought here regarding the July 7th 2005 purchases.It is sometimes cheaper to buy a "cheap day return"to somewhere in London than it is to buy a single.
Natalie |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 729
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 4:17 pm: |
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Andy - on Sir Melville's Material
I haven't checked my sources, but from memory he was known to take a close interest in the JtR case and kept much relevent material in a safe in his office along with photos. He said that he destroyed much material when he left office because of its confidential nature.
My own surmise on Druitt, and it is no more, is that he had spoken to members of the family, and may have had documents in his possession - perhaps medical records - which supported his (and the family's) view that druitt might have been insane and JtR.
My reading of MM remains (despite attempts on here to undermine his integrity) a man of honour. While the memorandum is capable of being interpreted as a red-herring (and I remain open to the possibility that it was deliberately written to distract attention either from Fenian affairs or some issue relating to the elder Cutbush) I think it is best read in a straightforward way. It holds up well if one does that. In the context too, MM might have been more concerned with the thrust of his argument and the confidential information, than with superficial details (Druitt as Dr - he got him right as a member of one of the professions).
This suggests to me that the confidential material was real and convinced MM.
Phil |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 961
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 4:54 pm: |
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Natalie,
Quite right. However, a person on a suicide mission is not likely to be concerned with finding bargains.
Phil,
Thanks, but I'm sure someone will refute my logic. And that's OK. That's what these boards are for.
Didn't the idea that he kept material about the case in his office come from his daughter? If so, that might need to be taken with a grain of salt.
I don't think there is anything to suggest that MM spoke with the Druitt family. In fact, by wording his statement to say that he has evidence to suggest that Druitt's family believed him to be the Ripper almost suggests that the information came from a third party source, although we cannot say for sure.
I think it's possible that the term "private information" refers to information given to MM off the record, as a private citizen rather than a police officer. Therefore, this information could be said to be in MM's possession but not in the possession of the police until "some years later." It would be quite "Victorian" to faithfully guard and observe this confidentiality so that MM would not share the "private information" with his department (at least not until much later).
The possible Fennian connection is well worth investigating. Not being British, I am not well versed in the subject. One might want to look into Druitt's debate topics for a glimpse into his political leanings. But one must bear in mind that such leanings do change as a person get older, typically migrating to the right as youthful idealism wanes.
Andy S. |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 699
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
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Andy,
However, a person on a suicide mission is not likely to be concerned with finding bargains.
Bargains, no, but one thing they are concerned about is not drawing attention to themselves. I do know that one-way airline tickets are one small red flag among many in "terrorist profiling" as practised by some countries. So, it might just have been part of the instructions that to look like fellows going down to town for the day they buy the cheap round-trip tickets.
As for Druitt, the round-trip may not have meant he was going (hoping) to meet someone but simply that he wasn't sure he wasn't returning. Suicide is not a spur of the moment thing for most: they have thought about for a long time and have often previously come close and then backed off. So a suggestion that Druitt intended suicide but wasn't sure. For all we know, he may have come close to the act previously and then been glad he had a return ticket.
Just trying to cover all bases here.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 731
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
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Andy - I think you misunderstood my "Fenian" reference.
I don't have any idea that druitt had such a connection. My thought it is MM might have written his memorandum to distract attention from the fact that the killer had a Fenian connection. In which case Druitt was simply a decoy, on the file - a name plucked from many.
Happy to discuss more fully if you wish,
Phil |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2340
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 5:39 pm: |
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Hi Andrew,
I tend to think Druitt may have been quite bothered about getting his mother properly placed in a private asylum that day.It seems to have been playing on his mind ,that and the thought that he was going the same way.If during previous weeks he had begun to think he was Jack the Ripper
like some mentally ill people think they are Napoleon or Catherine the Great and on top of all this he had been told to leave the school he was teaching at, then no wonder he saw his chance to escape from it all,once and for all.
Although it is possible he was Jack I tend to think it was probably a case of him confiding his fears of being Jack to people like Valentine and some of his friends giving rise to concerns for him about being on the brink of mental breakdown etc
His trip to Hammersmith,vulnerable and depressed as he must surely have been,may simply have brought on further feelings of confusion
as to what to do for the best and walking by that stretch of river,which can be bleak and unyielding in Winter may have been the catalyst.
Natalie
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 962
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 7:21 pm: |
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Phil,
Yes, my mistake. However, the possibility that Druitt had Fenian leanings might also be explored and could possibly even be the reason for his being sacked.
Natalie,
Good points as usual. The thought of checking out Tuke's Assylum for mum is an interesting possibility as she was transferred there the following year. The difficulty with your last point, however, is the suicide note left at Blackheath. This indicates he was at least seriously considering suicide before he left.
Andy S. |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 461
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 7:39 pm: |
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Hi John,
I don't think Winslade was out on the river looking for lost items. The term waterman usually means someone who works on the water in rivers or estuaries, so Winslade could have been sailing a barge, rowing a ferry boat or similar.
Rgds.
John |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 849
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 8:14 pm: |
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Andy:
"Therefore, unless you suppose someone threw Druitt's body in the Thames shortly before it was found AND planted a Dec. 1 ticket on him, you must conclude even if it surprises you that the ticket was legible after a month in the water."
Actually Andy, what I had inferred was just a bit different....more along the lines that Druitt's tickets never left his pockets from the time he purchased them until his body was found 28 days later.
As we all know,there's relatively little difference between a biodegradable item [ paper ]left in water for two months and one for three months...once the item is damaged,the length of time of the item is nearly impossible to determine,if at all...two months is "just like" three months,if you get my drift.
In this Druitt scenario, with the time frame being substantially different relating to the rate of biodegradation of the paper items [ after two weeks,I had intended to check them out...likewise,after three weeks...and finally at 28 days...], I had just thought it would be a good idea to make sure that it was possible that an item such as what Druitt had in his pockets,could avoid biodegradement as has been assumed for all these years. Two weeks or three weeks and no biodegration would make the one month estimate of Druitt in the water, almost impossible to deny as fact.
Its a win-win situation....
We could....could...have another mystery on our hands.
I really had hoped someone in London could try that experiment in conjunction with my late November test. Hopefully,the Londoner could find something from that period to experiment with.
I was going to use my High school diploma....its about that old. |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 443
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 2:12 am: |
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Hello Fellow Posters,
Given the limited information on Montague Druitt's last days, I guess its open slather.
Here's my invention: Imagine if Montague Druitt went on after Saturday cricket matches for a " social night out" with the "lads"; firstly drinks in the club pavilion after the game, followed by a spot of dinner at a pub or club or restaurant; then move on to say, a music hall for some slumming "Up East" around Whitechapel; then late-night drinks at an East end pub with more "slumming"...by which time, members of the group have drifted off in various directions, leaving the last stragglers who are rather merry...they wander off down commercial Road, Montague Druitt disapears (again)...but this time, is stopped and questioned by a local policeman who asks for identification...for some reason (excessive drunkeness(?))MJD and even one or two others, are put in the cell...pending suitable proof of their "respectability"...
Montague Druitt has no other option than to send a message/telegramme to Headmaster Valentine to vouch for his "respectability"....
Needless to say, Headmaster Valentine is not pleased...this is not the first time....
Although, admittedly, Macnaghten did not include
" drunken sex maniac " as Druitt's bad attribute.
However, cricketers and diabetics, both gravitate towards alcohol for consolation...the diabetics for the sugar content..the cricketers to forget a badly played game, or...a wonderful victory)!!
Love the Groucho eyes on your Smiley, Howard.Sorry I cannot help you with your tidal
experiment.
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 964
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 1:03 pm: |
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John,
Saturday cricket matches in late November - early December??? But your point is made. Yes, we can come up will all sorts of fantasies concerning Druitt. I hope that the scenario put forth in my Ripper Notes article is not considered too fanciful. My hypothesis (theories are proveable; hypotheses are not) is at least based on a reasonable presumption of Druitt's duties at the school and what would be considered a serious enough breech to constitute "serious trouble" but not outright scandal.
As to his movements on Saturday, Dec. 1, those from Blackheath to Hammersmith are at least traceable with reasonable certainty.
Andy S. |
Gareth W
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
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Phil, Andy -
I'm inclined to believe that the London terrorists purchased return tickets primarily to minimise suspicion in the first place. I would have thought that four men of middle-eastern appearance, boarding a train at Luton and simultaneously buying NON-return tickets may have run too high a risk of setting off alarm-bells.
I don't think the same problem would have arisen in Druitt's case. I rather think that, in common with many suicides and attempted suicides, Druitt was simply swaying from one extreme to another - "I can - I can't! Shall I, shan't I? Perhaps I'll feel better..." etc - and his return ticket merely a "safety blanket" option that he didn't finally invoke.
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 967
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 2:53 pm: |
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Gareth,
Very well put. I agree completely on both accounts. 
Andy S. |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 732
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 4:24 pm: |
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Gareth - read my post carefully. I make no assumptions about why the terrorists bought tickets. I am only interested in the official view.
Your inference about motivation may well be right. For my part, I draw no conclusions - i am just intrigued.
Phil
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2051
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:05 am: |
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Hi Gareth,
My thoughts exactly re the London bombers. Four singles from Luton to Kings Cross Thameslink would be a little unusual I'd have thought (although not the other way round - singles from London to Luton Airport would be commonplace).
No cheap returns, though, until after 9.30 am, as far as I know.
It's a pity Druitt didn't buy a single - at least that would have helped to rule out murder.
Love,
Caz
X |
Simon Owen
Inspector
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 224
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 7:48 am: |
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Druitt wouldn't go to Hamersmith just to chuck himself in the Thames though , he had to be going to Hammersmith for a reason , and since he bought a return ticket he obviously intended to come back.
The Embankment was the popular place for drowning suicides in London ( see ' Lord Arthur's Crime ' by Oscar Wilde ) and Druitt could have walked there from his chambers.
The problem is the suicide note. If Druitt met with a crisis and killed himself spontaneously at Hammersmith , why did he leave a note at his place of residence ( wherever that was ) ? |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 735
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 1:43 pm: |
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Druitt wouldn't go to Hamersmith just to chuck himself in the Thames though , he had to be going to Hammersmith for a reason , and since he bought a return ticket he obviously intended to come back.
That is logical but may or may not be true, so it takes us nowhere. Words such as "had to be" (used in a context such as that above) are dangerous in my opinion. They quickly change a reasonable supposition into a fact and then mislead. Druitt MAY have been going to hammermith for a purpose, but then again he may not - it might have had associations for him and thus, in his mind, be a suitable place to "top" himself. the purchase of a return might have been automatic, or deliberate, a mistake or a choise - we cannot know.
It is for that reason, I think we have to keep an open mind on all options in this instance, and consider all the possibilities. Logic can help, but is unlikely to carry us forward.
Incidentally, I too believe MJD probably went to Hammersmith for a purpose, probably to meet someone. But in the current state of evidence that's all it can be, a belief.
Phil |
Restless Spirit
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 98
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:01 pm: |
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Phil Hill
Welcome back!! I had a thought about Druitt's reason for going to Hammerstine. It may be possible that he went for a job interview, since he had been fired on Friday.He may have used his father's and or family name to set up an appointment for a new job. Since we do not know why he was fired, it may not have been a sexually related reason.
The suicide note was written, yes, however if he did not get the job he would go through with the suicide, if he did get this position no doubt he would tear up the note he left.
Maybe far fetched, but just a thought.
regards
Restless Spirit
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 737
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:16 pm: |
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Was he planning to write musicals, R-S? Oscar Hammerstein worked with Richard Rogers and others. I think you mean Hammersmith??
Sorry to pick you up on a trivial mis-spelling.
What you say is entirely possible.
Phil |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 857
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:24 pm: |
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"Oscar Hammerstein worked with Richard Rogers.."
Happens to the best of us Phil....its Rodgers.
How |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 969
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:45 pm: |
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R-S,
I have also wondered if Druitt went to Hammersmith to see about some job possibilities. St. Paul's School was located right by the Hammermsith station and, although he may not have been qualified to be employed at that prestigious school, there may have been other such schools nearby. This was also an area (and still is) in which there are a lot of athletic facilities.
However, we just don't know enough to think of this as any more than an intriguing possibility.
Simon,
Furthermore, if Druitt had wanted to commit suicide near the Embankment he wouldn't even have had to walk from his chambers. We know he was at Charing Cross Tube Station (today's Embankment Station) because he purchased a return ticket form there to Hammersmith.
By the way, the morgue photo described by Woodhall was that of a doctor said to have been fished out of the Thames near the Hungerford Bridge, i.e. at the Embankment. Wasn't this about the time the Embankment was constructed? Or was that earlier?
Andy S.
(Message edited by aspallek on August 24, 2005) |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2351
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:40 pm: |
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Hi Andrew,
One of the other reasons I have wondered about Druitt"s state of mind being one of border line schizophrenia is the tendency of such personalities to take employment that doesnt reflect their true capabilities.
Druitt must have been pretty bright to have got that scholarship at eleven to Winchester.There would likely only have been a few such "scholarship" boys.
He also won a scholarship to New College, Oxford-no mean achievement but he didnt really live up academically to the potential he had shown earlier on-in fact he got a third class degree indicating he either hadnt bothered very much or other things had begun to preoccupy his mind.His father died the year he went up to Oxford-maybe this affected his equanimity.Maybe though he was simply more interested in sport etc.
Afterwards he then takes up a "part time" teaching post at a small public school -almost out in the sticks.A job which probably didnt make too many demands on his intellect,a rather "solitary" job,again not making too many demands from a social point of view.Once again he goes for something that appears to be beneath his intellectual capacity.[Oh and school teaching is a common profession to choose for slightly reclusive personalities!-Hmmm!]
As a "part time" barrister of course he has chances to achieve more-but he doesnt really seem to have gone that far---in fact he hasnt been shown to be single minded about his degree, his teaching , his work in law when contrasted with his earlier promise---a bit of a drifter really dont you agree?And this too would fit that personality type as I understand it.
As a matter of fact Druitt simply because of his Oxford/Public school education and family connections would have been more than qualified to
apply for and obtain a post at St Paul"s school.It was very much up to the Principal and Bursar whether they considered you to be adequately qualified for such a post and I am certain Druitt would have had the right "credentials".
So where does that leave us-well possibly and more than likely in my view,he was in Hammersmith regarding his concerns about Mother-and the river beckoned...
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4863
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 6:43 pm: |
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This is the best I can find. Not the right area though.
DEC 4th 1888
Robert |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 701
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 7:56 pm: |
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Natalie,
Good points, but I think you may have nailed it when you mentioned sports. The one activity that he seems to have indulged continually was sports, especially cricket. As it is, the latest research seem to indicate he was more than a part-time barrister, if not exactly a go-getter either. You may be right, but while indicating a certain lack of ambition a philosopy that "nothing takes precedence over sports" is not entirely unknown among similarly aged single men these days.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 970
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 1:31 am: |
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Natalie,
Interesting opinion regarding Druitt's qualifications for employment at St. Paul's. I won't disagree with you but it makes one wonder why he took the post at Blackheath in the first place. Actually, Eliot Place was no mean location for such schools and a few generations before Druitt was a peaceful haven for the well-to-do.
So we are left with a maddening array of possibilities:
1. Druitt went to visit Dr. Tuke either as a patient himself or to secure a facility for mum. (But remember, he took the train to Hammersmith not Chiswick -- a walk of twice the distance).
2. Druitt went to call on Harry Wilson, a influential intellectual and Cambridge man. J.H. Lonsdale was a mutual acquaintance. (But same caveat as #1).
3. Druitt went to see about employment as St. Paul's school or another school in the area. (Highly speculative).
4. Druitt went to see about employment in the sport business or went to call on someone in the sporting world in the Hammersmith/Olympia area. (Again, highly speculative).
The task now is to scour diaries, biographies, and the like for some more definite connection.
Andy S.
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 738
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 1:43 am: |
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How - thank you.
Andy,
5. He went to kill himself (we can't rule that out, however unlikely).
6. He went to visit person or persons unknown about some matter of which we know nothing (blackmail; to seek money or employment; or succour.)
Some months back I recall posting a similar list of possibilities. I'll see if I can dig it out.
Phil |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 446
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 8:04 am: |
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Hello All,
As usual, some interesting hypothesising and debate.
I like Simon Owen's point about popular suicide places. It seems, suicides like to do it at places made fashionable by other suicides.
As to Montague Druitt's aim in purchasing a Second Class return train ticket to Hammersmith when he already had a paid-for Season Ticket (First Class of course)for Blackheath-London, that is still mystifying.
One area I don't think people have given enough consideration to, is just how devout Church of England Christians the Druitt family had been for many generations.
Given no one from Blackheath seems to have attended Montague's Dorset funeral, (Were they not invited by William? he preferring a low-profile, family /friends only affair)?
Did this mean there was no-one at Blackheath Montague could turn to in his crisis?
What about the cricket-playing Phegans of Blackheath? One was a doctor I think.
It seems strange Montague couldn't go and see his local Blackheath vicar...If he was suicidal,and had not told his brother of his Blackheath trouble
then perhaps he felt he could not receive comfort from the family.
But what about his sisters? Two were married to Reverend gentlemen: His eldest sister Georgina married to Reverend William Woodcock HOUGH in 1886.They were busy starting a family: with the first child Margaret, born 1887, the second John William, born 1889.The husband later became Bishop of Woolwich, and Georgina "fell out of" an upstairs window "sleep walking" in old age.
A younger sister, EDITH married the Reverend Frederick Daniel VAUGHAN probably after Montague's death, as their first child was born circa 1893.
It would be interesting to discover where these two sisters resided in late 1888.
Montague's next younger brother EDWARD was busy building fortifications in Australia having recently married in Dorset beforehand.
And the next brother, ARTHUR (born 1863)was at New College, Oxford obtaining his Bachelor of Arts degree. Of course, the College would have been closed for Christmas. So where was Arthur staying? Any clues? |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1335
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 9:21 am: |
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John
I did track down the Houghs in the directories a couple of years ago, and it appeared they were living at 32 New Cross Road, only 2 or 3 miles from Blackheath, in late 1888.
http://casebook.org/cgi-bin/forum/show.cgi?tpc=4922&post=66719#POST66719
[obviously I omitted to post the actual details from the directories!]
One other point - I know Oxbridge terms are short, but I think in early December Arthur should have been at College if he was still studying there (but 25 seems rather old to be still working for a BA).
Chris Phillips
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Restless Spirit
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 100
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 11:27 am: |
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Andrew S.
Thank you for responding to my post, I am, like everyone else trying to come up with possible scenerios, however as you say, we do not know enough to yeah or nay any ideas put forth.
regards
Restless Spirit
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Restless Spirit
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 101
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 11:56 am: |
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Hi all
I get the feeling that everyone is ticked off at me for some reason.
I try to send intelligent posts, I am not rude, and I take construction critism well. If I am wrong I take full responsibility maturly, yet my posts either do not receive responses or those that do respond do not directly respond to me, by my boardname or given name. Is it the name? There are very few exceptions to what I have stated above.
I do want to be an active, contributing member of this board, so would someone please let me know what your problem is with me.Is there a protocol that I've missed somewhere?
PS:I do get under the Dome every day.
Thank you
Restless Spirit
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 972
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 12:11 pm: |
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John,
Some very good thoughts. The season rail pass that Montague had was for travel between Blackheath and London -- it would not have included Hammersmith. To reach Hammersmith, Druitt had to purchase a separate ticket on the District (actually "Metropolitan District") underground railway.
With regard to Montague's potential religious ties, I can perhaps shed a little bit of light. There is a stained glass window in the Druitts' parish at Wimbourne dedicated to the memory of a Druitt ancestor. That at least shows some connection. The interesting thing here is that J.H. Lonsdale entered church work in 1887 and his first assigment was to Wimbourne Minster! Lonsdale, you will remembers, is the barrister who lived in Eliot Cottages (a stone's throw from Eliot Place) at Blackheath and had chambers a few doors down from Druitt's at Kings Bench Walk. He and Montague had to have been acquainted. Lonsdale was also acquainted with the influential Harry Wilson, who lived at Chiswick. However, I think I read somewhere that Lonsdale was no longer at Wimbourne by late 1888. My own parish is more than 150 years old and we have records going back well into the 19th century. So, it is possible that Druitt's Blackheath parish might have some record of his participation.
About the likelihood of someone contemplating suicide coming to his vicar or pastor for support, I can give some personal experience. In 18 years of pastoral experience I have had at least three parishioners commit suicide. In none of these cases was the action a surprise, as such tendencies were suspected. In no case did the individual come to me seeking spiritual or emotional support. In the most recent case I myself attempted to visit the individual out of concern that such an act would be committed. He summarily ordered me out of his house and then telephoned me an hour or so later assuring me that he was not going to kill himself. Three days later he shot himself in the head, to no one's surprise. Over the years I have had other parishioners openly admit to suicidal tendencies and come to me for support. None of these parishioners who admitted such tendencies ever carried out the act.
Just some anecdotal evidence.
Andy S.
(Message edited by Aspallek on August 25, 2005) |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 973
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 12:15 pm: |
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R-S (Judy),
Speaking for myself, I am not angry or annoyed with you. One of the reasons I'm hesitant to respond is that I don't have a name to address you by and I feel rather silly addressing a post to "Restless Spirit." Until now I had not noticed your username.
Andy S. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4865
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 12:47 pm: |
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Hi Judy
I have no problem with your posts.
People often ignore me!
I won't put my name at the end of this post, as I normally do, because I am ignoring myself at the moment.
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Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 739
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 12:57 pm: |
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R-S, I certainly have no problem with you or your posts and I welcome your contributions.
Sorry if my little witticism about "Hammerstine" offended. It was meant in well part - and i proved I can't spell either!!1
More power to your elbow and long may you continue to post,
Sincerely,
Phil |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2354
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 12:59 pm: |
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Thanks for sharing that information Andrew.
Chris, the link you give of much interest in that
it is around the time of the murder of Frances Coles[13th February 1891].
Apparently the public greeted Sadler- Frances"s man friend of the previous night -with "welcoming cheers" when charges against him were dropped[ who Paul Begg in JtR The Facts says " the public had shrewdly judged that the police were trying to fit him up ".
However another prostitute,her friend Ellen Callagher had warned her ,just before the fatal attack, to "give a wide berth to a man nearby whom she knew to be violent".It appears that the policeman PC Ernest Thompson,a new recruit heard footsteps in the distance and in a few seconds saw Frances,still alive with blood pouring from her throat.Because she was still alive regulations demanded that he stayed with her and was thereafter was known as, "the man who let the Ripper escape".
I quote this because it seems to me that despite Macnaghten"s claims,The articles in the
Mirror and Bristol Times of 11th and 14th February 1891,Sims claims and the claims of this "West Country MP"-who had given rise to the Druitt type rumour by putting it about that "The Ripper was the son of a surgeon"etc the view of the public appears to have been that the Ripper had not been caught [or was dead]and that he was still about.
To me this throws doubt once again on Druitt.
The prostitute Ellen C-Frances"s friend cited above knew her friend"s last[?] client to be a violent and dangerous man.Within an hour or less Frances was found dead.
The murder of Frances Coles may yet prove
to help solve this case for within days Thomas Cutbush was taken to an asylum,[March 5th 1891]from which he escaped and was subsequently sent to Broadmoor where he died some ten years later.
Druitt obviously could not have been the murderer of Frances Coles.The wound to the throat of Frances Coles was similar to that of the ripper victims.If PC Thompson is to be believed,and there is no reason to doubt him,he disturbed the murderer in his tracks.So further activity on her dying body would have been curtailed by the PC"s appearance on the scene.Who then was this "violent /dangerous man"-known to some East End prostitute?"
A lot happening in February 1891!
Natalie |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2355
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 1:06 pm: |
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Hi Judy,
I am always interested to read your posts.Keep on
posting!
Natalie |
Restless Spirit
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 102
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 4:07 pm: |
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Andrew S
On the old boards I was referred to by Julie by those who responded normally to me.
I will now change my signing name to Julie since there is another judy on the boards (I think)
My given name which I despise is Julia.
thank you for your honesty
regards
Julie
Restless Spirit
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Restless Spirit
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 103
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 4:10 pm: |
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Robert J Linford
Thanks for the encouragement.
Much appreciated
Julie
Restless Spirit
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Restless Spirit
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 104
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 4:12 pm: |
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Phi Hill
I was not offended by your post re Hammerstine at all.
Thank you for your kind words.
Julie
Restless Spirit
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David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 9:17 am: |
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Hi Simon.
I know it's probably all been said before my time here, but I've always had a problem with that suicide note. What we've read of it sounds to me like just an excerpt, retained purely for the benefit of the inquest. There is no beginning, as you would expect to find in a note that was probably intended for brother William. No "My Dear Brother", or anything like that, and no proper ending.
If, as I believe, that was the case, the mind boggles as to just what else that suicide note contained. But you're right Simon, the return ticket shows that his initial intention was to return. His mind was obviously in turmoil, to leave a suicide note behind, and then buy a return ticket.
It has been suggested, that the two cheques found on his body were drawn to pay off a blackmailer. Is it possible that he left the suicide note, but bought the return ticket in the desparate hope that he could satisfy the blackmailer with this pay-off in Hammersmith, only to discover, as many have, that these demands would never end??
It certainly seems that something major occurred, after he'd bought the return ticket, that changed his mind and took him down to the Thames.
Best wishes.
DAVID C. |
Restless Spirit
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 105
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 4:16 pm: |
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Natalie,
Thank you for your encouagement as well. It is very refreshing to receive so many responses. I appreciate all of you and most certainly read every post on this board.
tks again
Julie
Restless Spirit
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 974
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 4:36 pm: |
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Julie,
My friends usually call me Andy. I would invite all of you to do the same.
David,
We do not have the complete contents of the "suicide note." All we have is what a newspaper reporter wrote when he said the note was "to this effect." So we'll never know exactly what it said. Presumably, the reporter did not leave out anything significant but we can't know for sure.
Andy S. |
Simon Owen
Inspector
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 230
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 5:54 pm: |
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Heres something interesting I saw :
25/8/2005 12:12:04 PM from MSN News
( Source: Reuters)
Monday is favoured day for suicides
LONDON (Reuters) - Britons are more likely to commit suicide on Monday than any other day of the week, researchers said on Thursday.
This is due not only to the "Monday morning blues" associated with a return to work but, more generally, to a sense of unease related to the start of something new, they said.
The Office for National Statistics (ONS) collated evidence from nearly 35,000 suicide cases between 1993 and 2002.
"The most common day of death was Monday for both males and females," they said. "This 'Monday effect' for suicides was consistent across all age groups, methods of suicide and all categories of marital status."
Previous studies have suggested that the Monday effect is related to work, but the ONS noted it was also apparent in Britons aged over 75, most of whom do not work.
"(This is) consistent with the theory that the day of the week pattern in suicides is related to the effect of a new beginning, rather than employment-related," they said.
While Monday was usually the bleakest day of the week, the ONS found that the worst day for suicides in the 9-year period was January 1, 2000 -- a Saturday.
December 1st or December 3rd then ? Coincidentally the article also mentions January 1st , although 111 years too late for Druitt... |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2357
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 7:00 pm: |
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One thing I would like to ask about Druitt is whether there have been any serial killers similar
in terms of education,class background,profession[school teachers or barristers]and whether, if there have been,they were still teaching or engaged in advocacy work -while all the time keeping a keen and active hobby flourishing such as Druitt did- carrying out voluntary and dutiful work as honorary secretary of his cricket club for example .
While nothing in his life seems to hint at a man obsessed or driven by the sort of secret fantasies that Jack the Ripper eventually acted out, nevertheless if Druitt were to have been Jack ,then this was his possible "private world".
Actually to be frank everything points to a man keen and engrossed in a totally different world,a world of sport,local cricket clubs and the minutiae of their smooth running operation,the life of a typical English Upper-middle class man.A man still able, during the last few weeks of his life ,to also practise as advocate in court [even after the murder of Mary Kelly] still carrying out his duties efficiently as Honorary Secretary of the Blackheath Cricket Club in November 1888,still teaching apparently until the end of November 1888.
It somehow beggars belief that he was also creeping round Whitechapel in the early hours
murdering and mutilating middle aged women.
But-and it seems to me to get a bigger "but" as I type, if in fact he was, then the return ticket to Hammersmith may have been to weigh up the lie of the land in Hammersmith ,for further murderous activity-say around the theatre area there ,since Whitechapel was overrun by police and as such too much the focus of attention.
Possibly he knew somewhere or someone in Hammersmith where he could get hold of "gruesome" photos to sate his killer appetite in between the murders - possibly he also knew somewhere he could buy the kind of knives he needed there.
If something of this kind was the purpose of his visit then he may even have been followed to Hammersmith and murdered possibly by frantic family members faking both his suicide and the suicide notes.
Natalie |
Simon Owen
Inspector
Username: Simonowen
Post Number: 233
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 10:05 pm: |
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" Actually to be frank everything points to a man keen and engrossed in a totally different world,a world of sport,local cricket clubs and the minutiae of their smooth running operation,the life of a typical English Upper-middle class man. "
Which makes it all the less likely he would throw himself into the river , eh Natalie ? 
If he did commit suicide , Druitt was not your typical petit-bourgeois anyway , he was I think a man profoundly haunted that he might lose his sanity.
If Druitt had been going with prostitutes , maybe he feared he had caught syphillis and that it might leave him with G.P.I. and in the same state as his mother ? Thats certainly a way of reading his suicide note. Maybe his mother had caught syphillis herself and thats what caused her madness and melancholia ? Maybe if Druitt had been killing prostitutes , maybe he feared he could have caught syphillis from infected blood ? Maybe he was going to Hammersmith to see if he could get a cure ?
Druitt might appear ordinary , but whether he was the Ripper or not , he was probably a very troubled man. |
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