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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 877
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Friday, February 06, 2004 - 8:06 pm: | 
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There has been much discussion about the fate of Anne Deary, D'Onston's wife and, as it has been theorised that D'Onston actually murdered her, and hers was one of the unidentified bodies found in the Thames, the fate of the lady in question becomes fairly crucial.
To recap briefly for those not completely familiar with their marital history, D'Onston, still using the surname Stephsenson at that point, married Anne Deary in Islington in 1876. The couple are listed in the 1881 census as living at 10 Hollingworth Street North, London. This street no longer exists but was incorporated into what is now Paradise Park, Islington.
In the 1881 listing she is listed as Annie Stephenson, born 1844 in Thorne, Yorkshire. However, on checking the BMD (Birth, Marriage and Death) records for 1844 there was no Anne Deary listed. I eventually found her birth listed in 1847, not 1844.
By 1891 D'Onston (as he was then listed) was living at the Triangle Hotel (see separate thread) and described as single.
Lastly there is a listing in the BMD records for Anne Deary marrying in 1895 in Liverpool.
So, if Annie Stephenson was still alive at the time of the 1891 census, what would we be looking for?
1) I had found no record of a divroce between 1881 and 1891 so technically, if she were still alive, D'Onston and she were still married.
2) I had searched under DEARY in 1891 census and drew a blank. The other major possibility was that she was still using her married name, as of course she would be entitled to do.
3) The 1881 listing of her and many of D'Onston's connections suggested she may well be in or near the Islington area.
4) Her place of birth was Thorne in Yorkshire.
5) Her actual age at the time of the 1891 census would have been 43 - she was born in the latter half of 1847. As I have mentioned in other threads, age is one of the least reliable fields on the census data and I have often dfound this to be wrong, as indeed it was in Annie's census record for 1881.
Did I find anyone who filled these criteria? Well, as you may guess from the fact that I am posting, the answer is Yes!
1891 Census:
Address: 16 Douglas Road, South Islington, London
Head:
John Hill aged 42 born Clerkenwell
Solicitor
Wife:
Emily J Hill aged 41 born Peckham
Others:
Gertrude Barker (Niece) aged 26 born Leicester - School teacher
Henry B Hammond (Nephew) aged 15 born Wood Green - Solicitor's clerk
Eliza G Bentley (Visitor) aged 26 born Islington
Staff:
Annie Stephenson aged 40 born Thorne, Yorkshire - Cook, domestic servant (Married)
Martha Dilley aged 21 born Meppershall, Bedford - Parlourmaid
Marie Mitchell aged 17 born St. John's Wood - Lady's maid
Here is the entry for Annie:
The next steps I will be undertaking will be to try and trace divorce proceedings between the couple between 1891 and 1895 when she remarried. She then became Anne Carr or Anne Joseph - I am waiting for a copy of the marriage certificate to find out and can then trace her date of death, hopefully!
All the best
Chris
(Message edited by Chris on February 06, 2004) |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 880
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 07, 2004 - 1:15 pm: |
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Re: the above post. I have been able to establish definitely today that when Anne Deary married in 1895 her spouse was Edward Carr so from that date on we are looking for her as Anne Carr.
This is the entry from the Liverpool Marriage register which I managed to get sight of today:
Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1895
Surname CARR
Forename(s) EDWARD
Surname DEARY
Forename(s) ANNE
Church / Register Office LIVERPOOL REGISTER OFFICE
Registers At LIVERPOOL
Reference REG LP/225/27
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Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 884
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 10:33 am: |
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After repeated searches I have been unable to find Anne/Annie Carr in the 1901 census so the working supposition at the moment must be that she died some time between her marriage as Anne Deary in 1895 in Liverpool and the census in 1901. I have exaimed the BMD registers for that period and the only likely candidate whose death was registered in Ormskirk with the following details:
Name ANNIE CARR
Age: 53
District: Ormskirk
Volume: 8b
Page: 523
For information, Ormskirk is on the outskirts of Liverpool to the north east. Anne Deary (as she was originally) was born in 1847 but her year of birth was quited in the 1881 census as 1844. We would therefore expect her age at death to be quoted as 50 (if her true year of birth had been used) or 53 (if the anomaly in the 1881 data had persisted). Her quoted age in the register is 53.
Any further details, sepecially regarding the date of her divorce from Stephenson, which come to light I will post here
Chris
I am attching below the entry from the 1897 death register:
 |
Stephen P. Ryder
Board Administrator
Username: Admin
Post Number: 2954
Registered: 10-1997
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 10:51 am: |
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Excellent finds, Chris! Are we now able to close the book on the theory that Donston's wife was murdered?
Stephen P. Ryder, Editor
Casebook: Jack the Ripper
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Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 582
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 11:36 am: |
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Hi, Chris & Stephen:
Chris wrote: "For information, Ormskirk is on the outskirts of Liverpool to the north east." This sounds as if Ormskirk is part of Liverpool which it is not. Rather, the town is quite separate now and was more so in 1901, a town around 20 miles from Liverpool and definitely a rural Lancashire market town not a part of Liverpool.
It would be interesting to confirm that Annie Carr who died in Ormskirk in 1901 could have been D'Onston's wife. This is certainly intriguing information. Thanks for posting it, Chris.
Chris |
Chris Scott
Chief Inspector
Username: Chris
Post Number: 885
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 11:47 am: |
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Hi Chris G
Many thanks for the correction - I must admit my geography north of London is a little vague:-)
The date of death of the Annie Carr in question is 1897 and I have today ordered a copy of the death certificate from Ormskirk - with any luck the death was registered by her husband (Edward Carr)which would help to clarify the identification.
All the best
Chris S
(Message edited by Chris on February 09, 2004) |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 583
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 09, 2004 - 12:45 pm: |
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Hi, Chris
Glad to set you right on the geographic location of Ormskirk vis à vis Liverpool. 
Thanks for clarifying that Annie Carr, whom you are investigating as being possibly the former Ann Deary who had been married to suspect Roslyn D'Onston, died in Ormskirk, Lancashire, in 1897.
Best regards
Chris George
(Message edited by ChrisG on February 09, 2004) |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1048
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 10:54 am: |
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It maight be of interest that I have traced Anne Deary in the 1871 census at which time she was a servant to another R. Stephenson! Small world!
The details read:
Address:
Willow House, 63 Church Street, Sculcoates St. Mary, Yorkshire
Head:
Richard Stephenson Jnr.
Aged 31 born Kingston Upon Hull
Consul, Councillor and Timber Merchant
Unmarried
Servant:
Anne Deary aged 27 born Thorne, Yorkshire
Domestic Servant
In this context I assume that Councillor under Stephenson's profession means he was probably a local councillor but I am not sure in what sense he would have been a "consul" as this usually has some sort of diplomatic meaning.
Richard Stephenson was D'Onston's brother.
I have managed to trace Richard Stephenson in the 1901 census by which time he was living in Derby and is described as Secretary of the Shipwrecked Mariners Society.
Interesting that with D'Onston's emp[loyment by HM Coast Guard and the maritime connections of William Taylor and Alec Sindon, there is a strong maritime thread though the D'Onston story.
In 1891 Stephsenson was living in London and had married:
Address:
44 Lady Margaret Road, Kentish Town, London
Head:
Richard Stephenson aged 51 born Sculcoates, Yorkshire
Secretary to Financial Company - Broker
Wife:
Minna L Stephenson aged 37 born France
In 1881 the couple were living at 4 Gobson Square, London and were described as follows:
Head:
Richard Stephenson aged 41 born York
Independent
Wife:
Minna L Stephenson aged 26 born France NBS (i.e. naturalised British subject
Just as a follow up to last few posts I have found the marriage details for Richard Stephenson, D'Onston's brother and his wife Minna.
the marriage was registered at Newcastle in the last quarter of 1876:
Richard Stephenson and Minna Louise Alley
In the 1881 census there is only on other person of the surname Alley listed as born in France, an Adelaide Alley, aged 29, a milliner, lodging at 1 Stalham Street, London. This may well be Minna's sister's but this is as yet unproven.
Chris
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Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 857
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 11:32 am: |
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Chris,
In-ter-est-ing. Again, great work.
You passed this on to iVOR ?
Monty
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1050
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 12:17 pm: |
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Hi Monty
Thanks for the comments- yes Ivor is aware of this:-)
Chris |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 864
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 12:24 pm: |
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Chris,
I bet he is....
Monty
Chris, doesnt belong here but I cannot be bothered to start a new thread (especially if it doesnt take off) nor to mail you.
I see from your profile (you look a hell of alot younger than I imagined .....fawn, fawn, paw, paw) that you are based in Ramsgate. I was wondering if Sir Charles Warrens own Boy Scouts are still knocking about ? I know that its a big ask but if you have heard anything Id be interested....seeing as Im an ex Mowgli. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1053
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 11, 2004 - 5:58 pm: |
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Hi Monty
I will make some inquiries and see what I can find out
Chris
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Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 866
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 5:11 am: |
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Chris,
Dont bust a gut on my account mate.
Only if you're bored.
Thanks.
Monty
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Michael Raney
Inspector
Username: Mikey559
Post Number: 192
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 12, 2004 - 3:15 pm: |
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Monty,
A Boy Scout? Does that mean you're good at tying knots and such as that?
(Sorry, I know, wrong thread)
Mikey |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 875
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 12:18 pm: |
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Chris,
Just out of interest. Is the pack still going ?
Monty
(Message edited by monty on March 15, 2004) |
Monty
Chief Inspector
Username: Monty
Post Number: 876
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 15, 2004 - 12:18 pm: |
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Mikey,
The rabbit comes out the hole, round the tree and back down in to the hole.
Boy, do I?
Monty
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 161
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 16, 2004 - 6:42 am: |
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Hi Chris,
Going back to your post of Thursdfay March 11, and Richard Stephenson Jnr. being described as a consul. This would not have been unusual then, and still happens today.
Let me explain, the city of Kingston upon Hull (or locally 'Ull)and which includes the parish of Sculcoates is a Port, which in those days would have been the third largest in England. For this reason consuls would often be appointed by various countries haveing a trading connection with the city, and they would deal with any formalities arising with ships from that country. These consuls were, and still are, appointed from local dignitaries, business men etc.
BestRegards
John Savage |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 366
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 9:56 pm: |
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The revelation that Anne Deary and RDS were not in conjugal bliss could be of some importance.
From 1876-1881, at most, these two were together.
But were they for that long? And why?
Is it possible that RDS simply married her to irritate his parents,the social climbing seed-crushing clan giving her the brush after even far less than 5 years ?
Your thoughts.... |
David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott
Post Number: 93
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 10:58 am: |
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Hi How,
Here is a copy of a message that I just posted over at jtrforums which may be of interest ...
I have found the following, which may be D'Onston's wife : -
Ann Deary: b Q3 1842, Thorne, Yorkshire christened Ann Elizabeth Deary 5.10.1842 Thorne Yorkshire
Father: Charles Deary b Norwich circa 1805 (lived in Thorne 1861 & 1871) died Q2 1871, Thorne, Age 66
Mother: Frances 'Fanny' Deary b Tadcaster circa 1812 (lived in Thorne 1861,1871,1881) died Q1 1886 Caistor, Lincs age 74
Sister: Nancy Deary b 1840, Thorne (servant in Goole on 1861 census, as was Annie)
Sister: Sarah Deary b 1845 Thorne
Brother: Charles Lewis Deary b 1847 Thorne
As regards what became of Annie after D'Onston, I agree that in 1891 she is the Annie Stephenson, b Thorne, age '40' working as a cook in the house of a John Hill of Islington.
I also suspect that she is the Annie Stephenson, b Doncaster, age 56, working as a cook in an establishment at Highburn Hill, Islington in 1901. (Thorne is in the administrative area of Doncaster)
The interesting thing about the last census entry is that her marital status is shown as widow.
I can find no death record up to 1909.
As regards the Anne Deary who married Edward Carr in Liverpool 1895, there is an Ann Deary age 41, single, living in Liverpool on the 1891 census - could it be her?
David
How, I would tend to agree with the comments you made on another thread about the reasons for D'O referring to himself as a widower - it looks like his wife may have done the same |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 449
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 2:22 pm: |
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Thanks loads,David. Give little Harrison a hug on me...
One minor question,possibly relevant, about the information that you have so kindly provided is the discrepancy with .....
Annie Stephenson, b Doncaster, age 56, working as a cook in an establishment at Highburn Hill, Islington in 1901.
As you can see,the age would indicate,if correct,that the Annie above was born in 1845, not 1842.
The Anne born on October 5th, 1842 would be 58,pushing 59, in 1901.
Chris Scott has mentioned previously that the ages of people in censuses can show a discrepancy from one census to the other. Your information may be spot on and the numbers may lie in this case,as in others,again,as Chris Scott said.
We'll keep checking into it.
Thanks big guy !!
HowBrown
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David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott
Post Number: 94
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 3:03 pm: |
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How, Without a doubt the ages on census records are very unreliable. The Ann Deary born in Thorne 1842 should be 18 at the time of the 1861 census, but her age is shown as 17. In 1871 & 1881 the Annie living with Richard and then Roslyn is shown as 27 and then 37 so there's a fair chance it's the same person. The 1891 census is way out - she should be 48 but the one that Chris found (that I agree with) is listed as 40.
Then in 1901 she should be 58 but is listed as 56.
Of course, the Ann Deary born in Thorne 1842 could be a completely different person to the one on the census records from 1871 onwards (1861 is right because she is still with her parents whose names are on the christening record) but I think that the balance of probability is that Mrs D'Onston was still in Islington in 1901.
All the best
David
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David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott
Post Number: 95
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 7:03 pm: |
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Regarding the Anne Deary who married Edward Carr in Liverpool 1895, on the 1901 census there is at least one instance of a Mr Edward and Mrs Annie Carr in Liverpool. He is age 47, a ship fireman born in Ireland, she is age 40, also born Ireland. Don't know if they're the same people.
Interestingly, the Ann Deary in Liverpool on the 1891 census was also born in Ireland, although the ages are out.
David |
David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott
Post Number: 97
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 7:39 am: |
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A little erratum - it should be Highbury Hill, not Highburn. The house (number 63) appears to have been a training institute for the Church Missionary Society, who had a college in the vicinity. |
Tee@jtrforums
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 08, 2005 - 3:46 am: |
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So it`s begining to look as though we need to re-think once again the fate of the real wife of Roslyn DOnston Stephenson. As this does not seem to be the same Anne that was married to him after all.
Very interesting. Once again.
Well done David K.
Tee. |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 530
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 6:44 pm: |
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Dave...
You said..."Regarding the Anne Deary who married Edward Carr in Liverpool 1895, on the 1901 census there is at least one instance of a Mr Edward and Mrs Annie Carr in Liverpool. He is age 47, a ship fireman born in Ireland, she is age 40, also born Ireland. Don't know if they're the same people."
A quick check of the ages vis a vis the year this woman was born seem to infer that she was born in
1861 and the one living single in Liverpool in 1891 who was 41....I know women lie about their age,but this is almost a 20 year discrepancy with the Anne Deary born circa 1842....and an 8 year gap with the second.
You and Chris are more than likely correct on the woman found by Chris and the one found working as a cook in Islington, by you....being the happily to say, unmurdered ex-wife of Sudden Death Stephenson.
No real need to "rethink" anything.
HowBrown
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 533
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 09, 2005 - 10:59 pm: |
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Perhaps I spoke too soon...
Maybe someone would like to offer a fact-based argument against what Chris and David found.
I forgot....no one owns RDS. My mistake.
Carry on with the counter-arguments,by all means.
My apologies.
HowBrown
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David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott
Post Number: 101
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 3:00 pm: |
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I doubt whether we'll ever know for sure what became of Annie, as the death certificate would not necessarily give us confirmation that we had the right person - unless the informant could be linked somehow - but I have found a possible death for an Ann Stephenson, 4th Qtr 1910 in Sculcoates aged 68. This is the only one I've found so far of the correct age in either London or Yorkshire.
David |
David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott
Post Number: 102
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 6:17 pm: |
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Just to say the Ann Stephenson who died in 1910 is probably another red herring, as I have found another Ann Stephenson on the 1901 census living with her husband in Sculcoates of the same age so it's probably her - but I'll check it out just in case. |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 537
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 10, 2005 - 9:06 pm: |
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Thanks Dave,for your input on the latter two ladies.
I have to admit it appears at times,that in order to satisfy everyone about the fate of Anne Deary, we would have to go back in time. From what Chris found way back in February 2004, what are the odds that there were two women born in the same place,with occupations "mirror image" and have the same age ?
In any event,your work in regard to research into the multiple Annies...Annes...Dearys...etc..are typical of what you have always brought to the table,Dave....first class work from a first class person.
My end of the research, at present, has been a little slow in coming....but its coming. The dependency on finding things out from here regarding England, takes time.
Finding out that Anne wasn't murdered by RDS actually makes little difference and is beneficial in constructing a more realistic view of this weird bird.
All the best to Little Harrison !
HowBrown
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 410
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 7:00 pm: |
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Hi Howard,
If David has an address for this Ann Stephenson I could probably tell you if she resided in the same part of town that we earlier indentified for the Stephensons. Not sure if this would help, but just a thought.
Rgds
John |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 552
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 11, 2005 - 7:51 pm: |
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Sir Gory...
I'm sure David will see your post above and respond.
Aware that this may not belong here,but in any event, I'll say it anyway....
While it doesn't matter at all if RDS didn't kill Ms.Deary or made gestures with the throat to Cremers or claims he is a 'widower" on his entry in the 1901 census report, it does matter that we really take a fresh look at this man.
Mr. Harris left us all,and I mean all of us,with a wrapped present with nothing inside. Much of what Nina Thomas,one of the most underrated researchers in Ripperology and a beautiful lady to boot,or what Chris Scott,who isn't too shabby himself, have found should have been investigated by Mr. Harris himself. He had,as did Stewart Evans,Martin Fido,and the late James Tully did,a vested interest in following up on their suspect. All did....save one....Mr.Harris.
I really want to examine the O'Donnell manuscript,like you wouldn't believe. If what Mr. Harris included in the True Face is not the entire material,then we may be always in this state of limbo. I don't care if Wescott or Knott gets to see it...or the most vociferous anti-RDS advocate gets to see it. It needs to be done.
To counter this status of inacessibility to the O'Donnell, I thought checking into where RDS got his money to live would be the only other way of learning more about him,in light of this inability to access the O'D.
So,John....whatever you can come up with,as you have done so far and with success,can only be beneficial. Dave will see your post above,I'm sure.
Your pal,
How
HowBrown
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David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott
Post Number: 103
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 4:26 am: |
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Hi guys,
The Ann Stephenson I found on the 1901 census in Sculcoates is certainly not Roslyn's wife (she was living with her husband Richard at Water Buildings, Cottingham).
I suspect that she is the same Ann Stephenson that I had previously found a death record for, which still leaves us looking for a record of Roslyn's wife's death.
My guess is that it will be in London some time after 1910, although it is really only tying up loose ends. We can be fairly certain that D'O didn't kill his wife, and that they simply split up, which is probably as much as we're going to find out. It would be nice to know why they split up, but unless there was a divorce, which seems unlikely, we'll probably never know.
David |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 555
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 8:16 am: |
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Dave and all...
Good work,sor...
Okay...lets look at a couple of things here.
First, the two marry in 1876. Thats a fact.
Second, they are found living as a couple and listed in the 1881 census as living at 10 Hollingworth Street North, London. This street no longer exists but was incorporated into what is now Paradise Park, Islington.
Third, RDS went to India in 1878,when Edward Lytton was Viceroy of India.
Fourth,RDS is listed as well as his wife is,living in modern day Islington, in 1881.
Married in 1876,RDS leaves for India two years later [ perhaps the honeymoon was over?]...back together at least for the census...and then where?
Anne,in Islington in 1881 and then in 1891,living as a "married" domestic servant
Address: 16 Douglas Road, South Islington, London
Therefore,its possible that the brief marriage [which may well have been primarily an act of defiance on the part of Sudden Death ]only spanned 2 years..and possibly within the decade of 1881-1891,these two lovebirds split up,making the marriage less than what we assumed it was...maybe only a 3-4 year liason.
So now..bearing in mind what David has said about the possible impossibility of determining why they broke up, the focus could shift to the reasons for Anne using the title, "married".
Does it make sense to anyone else,that this title of married,rather than widow,or divorced, may emanate from the social stigma or difficulty of a "divorced" woman trying to obtain work,while her estranged,not necessarily divorced,husband,is traveling to India and/or trying to make ends meet away from London or England?
Your thoughts,please...
HowBrown
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2092
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 8:34 am: |
|
Here is the 1861 listing for Anne Deary:
1861: Anne Deary
Ouse Street, Goole, Yorkshire
Head: Robert J Harrison aged 41 born Thorne, Yorks - Joiner and cabinet maker (1 man and 4 boys)
Wife: Eliza Harrison aged 37 born Louth, Lincs
Children:
John E aged 9
Frederick aged 6
Elizabeth J aged 4
Alfred F aged 2
All born in Louth, Yorkshire
Apprentice: John Newby aged 17 born Malton, Yorks
Servant: Annie Deary aged 17 born Thorne, Yorks - General servant |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 556
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 8:39 am: |
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Oy,what a dunce !
Of course between the decade of 1881-1891,they become estranged.
In trying to make that little list, I goofed a little...my dumb.
1876- Married
1878- Sudden Death takes his bad self to In-ja
while Anne keeps the home fires burning,or back home to mama OR....maybe to the Stephenson family back at the ranch in Hull.
1879-1881[early]- back from India , Sudden Death comes to his senses and is found on the census with Anne.
post-1881 census....Whither thou goest,you lovebirds?
A 37 year old man back in 1878,is it possible that the alleged syphilis/gonorrhea RDS may well have contracted back in the late '60's, is the reason for this departure only two years after marriage?
Was this marriage a matter of Sudden Death and Anne Deary,and forgive me for saying it,ladies...a marriage of convienience,with RDS getting married solely because he needed someone to make his breakfast and be his housecleaner ? After all,Anne appears to have been a lifelong housecleaner. Could RDS have actually had consideration for Deary and avoided the concomitant conjugatin' due to this venereal disease, which RDS may not have known would not be contagious ?
What do you think? Could this be a factor for the brief marriage?
I'm starting to sound like a gossip columnist,I know...but could this be the reason he left her back at the house ?
HowBrown
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 557
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 8:45 am: |
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Chris........Thanks for that addition.
One question..."Ouse Street, Goole, Yorkshire"
Is that correct? Ouse and Goole ?
Luego,amigo..
HowBrown
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2093
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 9:06 am: |
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Here is some background info on Edward Carr who married Anne Deary in 1895:
Edward Carr
Married Anne Deary in 1895
In 1891 census he was still married to previous wife and was living in Ormskirk:
Wigan Road, Ormskirk, Lancashire
Head: Edward Carr aged 53 born Ormskirk - Cordwainer
Wife: Margaret Carr aged born Ormskirk
Children: Thomas aged 20 - Colliery labourer
Mary aged 18
Alfred aged 16 - Colliery labourer
All born in Ormskirk
Edward's wife Margaret died in 1893. Her death was registered in the last quarter of that year as follows:
Name: Margaret Carr
Aged at death: 56
District: Ormskirk
Volume 8b
Page 633
As noted above, Edward's marriage to Anne Deary was registered in 1895 and her death in Ormskirk was registered in 1897.
By 1901 the now widowed Edward was living with his married daughter Mary:
13 Tweed Street, Fairfield, Liverpool
Head: John Cassidy aged 27 born Liverpool - Plumber
Wife: Mary Cassidy aged 28 born Orsmkirk
Son:
James Edward aged 1 born Liverpool
Father in law:
Edward Carr aged 63 (Widowed) born Orsmkirk - Shoemaker
Edward Carr's death was registered in the 2nd quarter of 1910 in the district of West Derby (which, confusingly, is not in Derby but in Lancashire) and his age at death is given as 72 (Volume 8b Page 203)
(Message edited by Chris on June 12, 2005) |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 411
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 9:41 am: |
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Howard,
They really do exist, Goole is an inland port some 30-40 miles from the sea standing by the River Ouse.
Goole is a town as dull as it's name suggests.
Just off to look for Water Buildings in Cottingham.
Rgds
John |
David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott
Post Number: 104
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 11:03 am: |
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Chris,
Re the marriage of Edward Carr and Anne Deary, do we know for sure that the Edward in question is the one born in Ormskirk, and not the one born in Ireland.
Thanks
David |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2094
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 11:47 am: |
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David
My feeling is that the Edward Carr outlined above was born and lived in Ormskirk and it was in that place that Annie Carr's death was registered in 1897. It was after her death that he moved into Liverpool with his married daughter.
The Annie Carr listed in 1901 was born circa 1861 in Ireland. The Annie we are looking for was born in Thorne, Yorkshire in 1847.
Hope this helps
Chris |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2095
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 12:08 pm: |
|
If these identifications are correct I thought it might be worthwhile to tabulate both her whereabouts as listed in the source and age variances. These are as follows:
1847 - Anne Deary born in Thorne, Yorkshire
1861 - She is a live in servant in Goole
1871 - She is a domestic servant in the household of Richard Stephenson in Sculcoates
1876 - She is married to Doston in Islington
1881 - She is living with Donston at 10 Hollingworth Street, Islington
1891 - She is listed as a domestic servant, still under the name of Stephenson ans listed as married, at 16 Douglas Road, South Islington in the household of John Hill, Solicitor
1895 - Under the name of Anne Deary she marries Edward Carr at Liverpool Register office.
1897 - Her death is registered in Ormskirk.
Her ages (as given and actual) in the various sources are as follows:
1861 census - age given as 17 - actual age 14/15
1871 census - age given as 27 - actual age 24/25
1881 census - age given as 37 - actual age 34/35
1891 census - age given as 40 - actual age 44/45
1897 - age at death given as 53 - actual age 50/51
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 562
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 12:18 pm: |
|
Thanks Chris...
That 10 year period between '81 and '91 is the period that is of personal interest.
How did she survive ? Where did she live and whom did she work for if old Sudden Death was out of her life during this decade ?
How's this look to you,Dave ?
HowBrown
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David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott
Post Number: 105
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 1:59 pm: |
|
Chris & How,
I have Ann Deary's birth year as 1842, not 1847.
Born Q3 and Christened 5.10.1842.
I think the Liverpool connection is a red herring whether the Edward Carr was of the Ormskirk or the Ireland variety.
I believe that D'Onston's wife was the Annie Stephenson who was a cook in Islington in 1891 and 1901.
I agree with How that it's what happened between 1881 and 1891 that it would be nice to get to the bottom of.
David |
Jennifer D. Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2535
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 4:52 pm: |
|
guys,
are there workhouse registers or poor law books etc you could look in?
Jenni |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2096
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 5:06 pm: |
|
Hi David
I agree that the 1842 Ann Deary is the right one - the marriage certificate confirms that Donston's father in law's name was Charles. However, on the marriage certificate Charles Deary is described as a farmer, but the census consistently identifies him as a cordwainer.
I remain to be convinced that the 1901 cook is "our" Ann Deary but have a bit more digging around to do and will post anyting I find.
All the best
Chris
Here is the 1842 birth entry:
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 569
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 5:18 pm: |
|
John.........Thanks for that clarification on the town name.
Jennifer...Are you referring to workhouse registers for Anne Deary? She may not have had to go to one,but thats a good suggestion just the same,college girl...
HowBrown
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 697
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 12, 2005 - 7:07 pm: |
|
Hi Howard,
I have been skimming through this thread a bit, concerning whether our dear Annie is the Annie Deary of 1901. She seems to fit, but it occurred to me that Ms Deary might have escaped being butchered by "Sudden Death" D'Onston because she had family who would keep pressing him with questions about her disappearance. It was not like picking (if D'Onston is our man of 1888) five total strangers he vaguely may know or know of for his victims. Their families would not really know him.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott
Post Number: 106
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 13, 2005 - 2:38 am: |
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Hi Chris,
If you are happy that the 1891 cook Annie Stephenson of Islington is Mrs D'O, when her age is 8 years out, then why not the 1901 cook Annie Stephenson of Islington, when her age is only 2 years out?
David |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 573
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 13, 2005 - 6:12 pm: |
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J.B.
This is why I always blow your horn,buddy. Thats a perfectly rational explanation and may very well be why IF RDS even thought of harming her [ remembering that she also worked closely with RDS' brother and mother ], he would have had to deal with the Deary family.
Great thinking,my man.
HowBrown
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2097
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 13, 2005 - 6:41 pm: |
|
Hi David
The age issue is not too much of a problem for reasons I have mentioned above but all other sightings of Anne specifically list her place of birth as Thorne, and not Doncaster
I have today ordered a copy of the wedding certificate of Edward Carr and Anne Deary to see what light it can shed e.g. the name of her father etc.
All the best
Chris
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