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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1181
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 7:12 pm: | 
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The tickets found on Montague Druitt's Body:
1) A first class season pass from Blackheath to London (South Western Railway)
At the time of Druitt's death the London terminus for the LSWR was Waterloo Station
2) A second half return from Hammersmith to Charing Cross
To get the geography of these clear in my mind I have marked the important points on the map below. The key is as follows:
Red circle - Blackheath
White circle - Waterloo Station
Dark blue circle - Charing Cross station
Pink circle - Hammersmith station
Yellow circle - The place in Chiswick where Druitt's body was found.
Becuase of the scale of the map to get all these in the positions are necessarily approximate but I have placed them as accurately as possible.
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Mark Andrew Pardoe
Inspector
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 232
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 25, 2004 - 4:28 pm: |
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Whatho Chris,
To get from Waterloo to Charing Cross is an easy journey; just a walk over Hungerford Bridge. But did Hungerford Bridge have a public walkway in 1888? I'm afraid I don't know.
Cheers, Mark (who, as the ex-Chief Archivist of the British Railways Board, should know better  ) |
Monty
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Monty
Post Number: 1043
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 26, 2004 - 12:00 pm: |
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Mark,
It seems so....but could he have stood the stench ?
Check this....
http://www.london-se1.co.uk/news/0899/hungerford.html
Monty
Our little group has always been and always will until the end...
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Mark Andrew Pardoe
Inspector
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 235
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 3:55 pm: |
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Whatho all,
I just realised something which is blatantly obvious. The trains from Blackheath run into Charing Cross Station.
Blackheath was on the system the South Eastern Railway Company not the South Western.
I should have spotted this before, sorry.
Cheers, Mark (It's a good job I'm no longer employed by the railway!) |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 184
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 02, 2004 - 6:40 pm: |
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Hi Mark,
An interesting point, which had crossed my mind.
There seems to be confusion over the question of whether Montague's ticket was issued by the South Western or South Eastern Railway. I have checked quickly through 4 books on my shelf, the result being 3/1 in favour of South Western.
SOUTH WESTERN
The Ripper Legacy - Howells and Skinner
JTR The Uncensored Facts - Begg
JTR Sourcebook - Evans and Skinner.
SOUTH EASTERN
The Complete History of JTR - Sugden.
Perhaps if anyone has a relevent copy of Bradshaws they may be able to give a definitive answer.
Best Regards
John Savage |
David Andersen
Police Constable
Username: Davida
Post Number: 8
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 24, 2004 - 2:29 pm: |
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I can confirm that the original reports state that it was the South-Western Railway. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2586
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 19, 2004 - 7:28 am: |
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Hi
Found this item in the "Times" Dec 11th 1888, which seems to confirm that in those days season tickets bore the name and address of the owner :
Robert |
Mark Andrew Pardoe
Inspector
Username: Picapica
Post Number: 244
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 3:36 pm: |
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Whatho Robert,
An nice little piece giving some idea of railway practice, well that of the Metropolitan District Railway. I am interested to note it is possible to send for brandy after being arrested. 
Cheers Mark (now drunk in a cell at Hitchin's police station) |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 248
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 20, 2004 - 8:34 pm: |
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Hello Robert,
I agree with Mark, a very interesting colour piece on the behaviour of one member of the Victorian legal profession in London.
I think Mr Temple must have given a drop of his brandy to Mr D'Eyncourt.
After all, bashing someone over the head repeatedly, not only till your stick breaks but also ,later, with the metal-tipped ferule, - causing extensive bleeding- only merits a fine and a cash bribe for the complainant.
Didn't the magistrate consider Mr Temple a threat to good order? A bad example to other commuters? Wasn't there too much of that sort of thing going on in those days?
Perhaps the defendant and the magistrate knew each other or were on the same circuit or from the same Inn....(of Court I hasten to add).
Interesting that the railway company endorsed the purchaser's name and address on the reverse of the Season Ticket. Wonder if that was how they identified Montague Druitt? |
Christopher T George
Chief Inspector
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 782
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 1:27 pm: |
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Hi, Robert
This court case is extremely interesting, not only for what light it sheds on Druitt's train ticket, but for giving us another period episode which might have some bearing on the Ripper case. I have often thought that one way of finding the Ripper might be to study other news reports of strange behavior that may have been overlooked as having some link to the Whitechapel murders. That is one reason I have been researching the Jewish Met constable Richard Brown, E Division, who shot himself in Hyde Park on 16 November 1888.
Here in this news report that you have helpfully dug up, Robert, we see an outburst of violence on the part of a gentleman. In fact, the clobbering of the inspector is reminiscent of the assaults by Edward Hyde described by Robert Louis Stevenson in "Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde." Mr. Temple Warner, age 40, solicitor, may not be our man but this is interesting stuff nonetheless and possibly might lead to something more.
Incidentally, it might be the same Temple Warner who is listed on a genealogical site and of whom it is stated--
Warner TEMPLE was born in 1848 in England. He immigrated [to the United States] in 1891. He was naturalised [as a U.S. citizen] in 1896. He was a lawyer in Jan 1920 in Berkeley, Alameda, CA. (see http://www.temple-genealogy.com/tidbits/d391.htm)
The age of the Warner Temple who immigrated to the United States in 1891 would appear to tally with the man who is described in this intriguing court case reported in The Times of 11 December 1888.
Best regards
Chris George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 2603
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 5:52 pm: |
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Hi Chris
Yes, it does sound like Hyde, doesn't it? Interesting if he did emigrate to America, because he'd presumably have had to undergo his legal training all over again because of the different system in the States.
I'd like to know what he did when asked to show his boat ticket.
Robert |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 397
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, June 21, 2004 - 9:13 pm: |
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In reading about Mr. Temple's contretempt about his railway ticket, it dawned on me that the occurrance was the second spectacular one to occur at the Sloane Square station in the 1880s. The first was when the Lord Chancellor (in 1882's IOLANTHE) had his nightmare, and dreamed of a "ravenous hoard" who came aboard the railway car he was traveling in at "Sloane Square and South Kensington Stations." Maybe W.S. Gilbert was prescient about that particular train station.
Jeff |
Peter J. Tabord
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2004 - 6:03 am: |
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Hi all
Blackheath station was part of the South Eastern Railway at the time in question. Waterloo had stations on both the South Eastern and South Western Railways, but it would not be practical to commute from the South Western station to Blackheath. No through route existed, although it would no doubt be possible to make the journey by interconnection, however the parts of the journey under different companies would probably have required separate tickets (I can't guarantee this, there were some arrangements for joint booking).
The South Eastern railway was somewhat unusual in having four major London stations, terminuses at Charing Cross and Cannon Street, and major through stations at Waterloo and London Bridge. Trains from all these stations to Blackheath would have been frequent. It would be highly illogical for a frequent traveller from Blackheath to Waterloo, to whom presumably time was of significance, to use anything other than the direct SER trains. Furthermore, the next stop after Waterloo (SE) is the terminus, Charing Cross.
Therefore, it seems, despite the weight of authors suggesting South Western, that Druitt's ticket would certainly have been on the South Eastern. And if he was going to Hammersmith he could probably have used his season ticket to Charing Cross - they are only the width of a bridge apart and they may even have been the same fare.
Regards
Pete |
Peter J. Tabord
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 22, 2004 - 6:10 am: |
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Hi all
Sorry. Misunderstanding - by several of us, I think :-)
Read back through the whole thread, and I think Waterloo is a red herring, correct? His season ticket was to London, and would probably have been valid at any of the four major SER stations mentioned in my previous post. So the only puzzle is - why did he buy a return to Hammersmith if he was going to top himself?
Regards
Pete |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 401
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 23, 2004 - 8:42 pm: |
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Hi Pete,
Possibly Monty did not plan to top himself when he bought the return to Hammersmith ticket - maybe his last chance for sanity, life, or whatever was at his first destination - and he felt sure it would support him when he bought the ticket - and then he discovered it was a fragile or non-existant reed. So he decided to take a longer final journey. Or, he just may have been killed in Hammersmith by someone who made it look like a suicide.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 758
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 1:03 pm: |
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Was there such a thing as a "day return" ticket in 1888? The reports indicate that a second half return ticket (presumably not a "day return") purchased December 1 was found on Druitt's body but do we know whether he intended to return on that day or on a later day? From the fact that no luggage was found we may infer that his intention was to return the same day. However, luggage cast in the Thames could have washed out to sea or sunk to the bottom.
I think we do have to assume that his intention at the time he purchased the ticket was to return rather than to kill himself at that time and place and I this question doesn't intend to start a debate on that once again.
Andy S.
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 340
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 29, 2005 - 7:16 pm: |
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Hi Andy,
I guess thre would have been a day return ticket in the 1880's, but I am not really sure.
A few months ago I contacted the Natioanl Railway Museum at York about season tickets between Blackheath and London, and they sent me a pic of one such ticket, which you may have seen posted on the boards.
Why not contact the National Railway Museum and ask them, the gentleman who replied to me was
john.clarke@nmsi.ac.uk
Hope this helps.
Rgds
John |
Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 284
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 10:03 am: |
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To expand on things said earlier - to get from Waterloo East (SE) to Waterloo mainline (SW) you have to cross a pedestrian bridge between the stations. There is no rail link between the two. As far as I know this has always been the case.
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 759
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 12:41 pm: |
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Phil,
I think the mention of Waterloo Station (East or West) is due to a misunderstanding. It seems from Peter Tabord's post above that Blackheath was on the Southeastern Railway and that the Southeastern had London stations at London Bridge, Waterloo East, Charing Cross, and Cannon Street. Having travelled from Charing Cross to Blackheath just three weeks ago I can attest that it is still on the Southeastern network.
It would make no sense for Druitt to disembark at Waterloo whether he were going to his chambers at KBW or connecting to Hammersmith. In either case he would have to make an unnecessary walk across the Hungerford Bridge. This is not a short walk and on a cold, windy December morning can be quite a miserable experience. The fare from Blackheath to Charing Cross was probably the same as that to Waterloo and in fact his pass probably entitled him to travel to any London station. So, it makes no sense for him to disembark at Waterloo.
In order to travel to his chambers or the Royal Courts of Justice, Montague would probably travel to Charing Cross. Today you would then walk to the Embankment Tube Station and take either the District or Circle Line to Temple (one stop). I presume the District was running in Monty's day. Alternatively, you could walk if the weather was suitable. He could have also taken a train from Blackheath to Cannon Street and then backtracked on the District a short distance to Temple. Perhaps his usual practice depended upon which train happened to call first at Backheath. By the way, the distance from Eliot Place to the Blackheath rail station is a walk of several blocks (assuming the station was the same in 1888), so Monty would probably not be in the mood for an additional walk in London.
I realize that all this is perhaps not terribly vital. However, I am trying to trace Druitt's movements from Nov. 30 - Dec. 1. I think we can give an approximation:
1. Sometime on Friday Nov. 30 Druitt is confronted by Valentine regarding some offense which occasions his termination. This probably happens in the afternoon, after classes conclude for the week (perhaps for the term?).
2. Druitt is allowed to stay at Eliot Place for the night, perhaps the permission extends to the whole weekend. We infer this because the suicide note is found where Druitt resided (Eliot Place) and its "since Friday" implies that is was written after Friday (i.e. on Saturday).
3. Therefore, Druitt probably spends a sleepless night in his rooms at Eliot Place during which time he pens the suicide note and leaves it for his brother to find.
4. Early Saturday morning Druitt takes perhaps the first train to London Charing Cross, using his season pass.
5. It is very unlikely that Druitt went to his chambers at KBW on Saturday. If he had done so his ticket to Hammersmith would have been from Temple rather than Charing Cross, being the nearest station. There would be little point in walking back to Charing Cross since he was going to get on a train anyway.
6. I don't know when the first Saturday train from Blackheath to London was then, but the trip would have been about 30 minutes. Certainly he could have been at Charing Cross well before 9 AM, perhaps before 8.
7. From there he presumably heads directly to Hammersmith, arriving still early in the day, and spends the entire day in that area before taking his own life under the cover of night.
The question, of course, is what solace was Montague hoping to find in the Hammersmith or Chiswick area? There are many possibilities.
Andy S.
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 345
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 12:55 pm: |
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Hi Andy,
It is quite possible that Monty could have walked across Waterloo Bridge and along the Embankment to Temple, I guess it would only take about 10 minutes.
Rgds
John |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 761
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 1:19 pm: |
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John,
True. I admit I didn't consider that. However, to avoid a walk one would have to travel all the way to Charing Cross or Cannon Street and connect with the District. Actually, Cannon Street might be more convenient since connecting at Charing Cross would still require a short walk from that mainline station to what is today Embankment.
BTW -- If you're ever making that walk, stop in at Benjy's for a jacket potato. Very reasonable.
Andy S.
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 346
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 3:54 pm: |
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Hi Andy,
I used to do the walk from Temple undergound station via the Temple Gardens to Fleet Street every day, but I don't remember Benjys. (Mind you I am going back to the 60's)
Rgds
John |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 762
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 4:00 pm: |
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Hi John,
Benjy's probably wasn't there in the 60's. My daughter and I had good sized jacket potatoes with meat topping and soft drinks for less than £5 in total. Just a "hole in the wall," mind you.
Andy S.
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 762
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 5:19 pm: |
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Dear Folks...
I've been wondering if the following has ever been discussed regarding the tickets found on M.J. Druitt when he was pulled from the waters on December,31st. If it has,then my apologies. I just have not been able to find any other mention of what I have to say...
Druitt is last seen on either the 1st or the 3rd of December.
The theory is that he committed suicide and was discovered at the Torpedo Works 28 to 30 days after killing himself. No argument there...
There may be an issue with all of this regarding the tickets.
If Druitt was immersed in the waters of the Thames for 4 weeks, what are the chances that the tickets would be legible after this amount of time?
Obviously,acid free paper did not exist in 1888. Neither did plastic . So the tickets were just paper,nothing more.
My "bone of contention " with this 4 week period in the water is that if Druitt was in the water that long, [a river, not an inert pond or pool], there would be some agitation, similar to a washing machine's actions, that would have affected the corpse of Mr. Druitt. There is no doubt about this.
I've looked around and cannot find if Mr. Druitt's paper [ the Valentine letter or these tickets ] were in a wallet. Its probably safe to say that if Mr. Druitt had wanted someone to be able to identify him afterwards, he would have left the identification somewhere else besides taking it with him. On this basis, I think it is likely that he simply carried the tickets as well as the letter in his pants pocket,in or out of a wallet.
Has anyone here on the Druitt threads seen a replica of a ticket from that time period? Have you actually handled one ? Is there an indented insignia, like a relief or some sort of permanent marking on these tickets that would indicate their origin ? We all have left paper items in our pockets and accidentally washed them while doing the laundry. Of course,there is a greater deal of "agitation" during a wash cycle than being immersed in water. However,just leaving articles in water for a few hours can eradicate the imprinting as well as other writing on printed matter, even today in 2005. In Druitt's case, we are talking about 1888 in basically dirty river water,which will assist in the removal of ink from paper.
Because it strikes me as odd that an article made of paper,and probably cheap, disposable, commodity cardstock at that, would survive the cold waters of the Thames in December. I intend to conduct a test with an old leather wallet that I have, some old circus ducats and maybe a Philly Zoo ducat to boot, in December. If anyone knows the temperature of London on December 31st, 1888, please let me know,as I am too tired and lazy to look it up for myself. I will conduct the test over a 28 day maximum time frame. Thanks to one and all whom can help a fat boy out ...The wallet,a letter written in fountain pen ink,and two tickets are going to be submerged in the waters of the Schuykill River,behind my place of employ. Its got to be as dirty as the Thames was.
This brings up another question. Perhaps Mr. Spallek [ reading your article in Ripper Notes tonight...]could answer this...
When the official stated that Druitt was in the water for about a month...
1. Did he base this on the subsequent identification and the last known date Druitt was seen ?
or....
2. HOW could he base this "ballpark" statement on a decomposing body,left in water for a month ? This is a very long and unusual amount of time for a body to remain in water undetected. Could it be that the medico heard that Druitt was missing for approximately a month and used this time as the basis for his determination?
The reason I ask this is twofold....
1. If the medico made his decision based on a "guesstimate" determined by the legible date of the tickets and/or the last known date he was known to be alive,then perhaps he did not jump into the river as people assume. Maybe his 'suicide' was not so early and....maybe he was murdered as some people have theorized..
Thanks for your time. |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 448
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 7:08 pm: |
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Hi Howard,
I think it generally taken that Druit was identified by the two cheques found upon him, also the railway ticket would probably have had his name on it. How well these items would survive for a month in water I do not know, but if he was identified by the cheques (and we know the amounts they were for) then the writing must have been legible.
As regards the ticket we have discussed this before and at the time I contacted the National Railway Museum in York to find out if they had any tickets for that railway, they didn't have one for 1888 but sent me a picture of the nearest year they had. I have put it up on the boards before but here it is again.
For the sake of your experiment I would suggest a piece of triplex card about the size of a credit card and calipering about 015-020". As for the weather in London in December, cold.
Good luck with the experiment and don't forget to write yourself a cheque to put in there as well.
 |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 928
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 7:23 pm: |
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Howard,
Regarding your questions about the inquest: all the information we know is contained in the Acton & Chiswick Gazette article. No transcript is known to exist and we don't know any more details. But I can tell you that suicide by jumping in to the Thames (and other waterways) was very commonplace in Victorian Times and later. As a matter of fact, the upper walkway of Tower Bridge is now glassed-in to prevent "jumpers" (you have to pay for the "Tower Bridge Experience to walk on it though, but worthwhile). The point is that medical examiners were very familiar with these corpses and I suppose became very skilled at estimating the length of time in the water. Remember also that in December the water would have been very cold and decomposition would be at a minimum for such conditions.
As to paper documents being legible, I have heard that legible documents have been recovered from the Titanic wreck. I think experimentation would be futile. Deteriorization is probably rather random based on varying exact conditions. As John says, the cheques found on him were legible without doubt. Finally, his name would also have been on the season Blackheath-London railway pass. Being a season pass this would have to sustain considerable wear and would probably be printed on a more substantial card stock.
Andy S.
(Message edited by Aspallek on August 01, 2005) |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 763
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 7:47 pm: |
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John...
Thanks for reposting the ticket. Nice little ticket,isn't it ? Very classy...I believe that the tickets I was thinking of would measure out on my micrometer,for measuring thicknesses at work, closely to the parameters you have posted. Thanks as always,John..
Andy...
Thank you for this explanation. Just to clarify what point I was trying to make...I felt that the tickets would begin to biodegrade in moving water after a period of four weeks. Not that I doubted anything about his suicide or whether it was Mr.Druitt...but just this physical factor that I had not seen mentioned. You are obviously aware that a dollar bill or pound note will only fade and not be eradicated,as the ink is of a specific and indelible type. Possibly another ink was used in the fabrication of Druitt's letter and/or possibly the tickets,which John has shown above,being handwritten.
May I also ask if these documents that were recovered from the Titanic, were on the persons themselves or possibly in other areas of containment...would you know?
Thanks again for the reply,Andrew. |
Sir Robert Anderson
Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 490
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 9:15 pm: |
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" legible documents have been recovered from the Titanic wreck."
I would think that the lack of oxygen in extreme depths would help with preservation.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 929
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 9:41 pm: |
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Sir Robert,
I would think that the lack of oxygen in extreme depths would help with preservation.
As would the extreme icy cold and maybe even the extreme pressure at those depths. However, I don't have trouble believing that under the right conditions such documents could be legible after a month in the Thames. There is no doubt that the cheques were legible.
Howard,
Yes, I understood your point. I only meant to show that at least the season pass must have been printed with durable ink on a durable card stock because it was intended to last through much wear over a considerable time. Hope you enjoyed the article.
Andy S. |
Sir Robert Anderson
Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 491
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 01, 2005 - 10:28 pm: |
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"There is no doubt that the cheques were legible. "
I'm certain you're correct, but we'll be able to verify it after we dredge How out of the Schuykill River and go through his pockets. I just hope he has some identifying tattoos in case he goes afloatin'.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Restless Spirit
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 81
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 3:09 pm: |
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Howard
I've thought long and hard about these tickets being legible as well. I am inclined to agree that he wasn't in the water as long as reported by the doctors. I also firmly believe that Druit's suicide was a direct result of his dismissal from his teaching job.Whatever happened there is the key to his death.If the information were to get out,(whatever it was) would no doubt have ruined his career as a lawyer as well, and no doubt he knew this only too well. It would be awesome to finally know the circumstances, he must not have be expecting this dismissal, which is evident by the train ticket etc, etc,
regards
Restless Spirit
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 765
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 8:17 pm: |
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Dear Sir Bob Robert:
No "tats",buddy...real phobia of needles. I'll have to have a 'green mahalishi' in my back pocket...then you will know who is floatin'.....if no one else does.
Dear Andy....Thanks so much for writing the article ! I enjoyed it very much. I re-read it today at work. It made me think of a alternative reason for Druitt's death,which I will refrain from going into detail here, due to your in-depth article. Very informative.
Dear Restless:
I likewise have felt that Druitt's "suspectability" was based more on the McNaughten Memoranda's mere mentioning of Druitt and his suicide. Mr. Spallek,himself,mentions the frequency of such acts below..
" But I can tell you that suicide by jumping in to the Thames (and other waterways) was very commonplace in Victorian Times and later.." from yesterday.
If that is the case,and Mr. Spallek is undoubtedly correct...than a suicide that occurred or rather,discovered, 52 days after the last C5 murder, seemed like an unreasonable starting point, for me, to consider Druitt as a "suspect".
What I suggest,Julie, is to read this very informative article to keep an open mind to everything regarding Druitt. Andy provides the meal...its up to you or me to dig in. Its a good one.
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Glenn G. Lauritz Andersson
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Glenna
Post Number: 3838
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 8:31 pm: |
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I agree, Howie.
It was a very good article by Andy -- I must say I found it incredibly enlightening and interesting -- although I still fail to see any clear reason for Druitt's high level of suspicion. My bet is that Macnaghten got influenced by George R Sims to a large degree in his preference for Druitt, but that is of course impossible to prove.
As I see it, there probably were reasons enough for Druitt to commit suicide, and if he really was the Whitechapel murderer, I think it would be fair to find clearer references to this in his suicide note. He does tell us the reasons for why he intended to commit suicide, and that was that he feared he was going insane, then add to it that he had been fired from a job. Some people of sensitive disposition doesn't really need that much in order to go to excess.
We don't know how Druitt found out that he was beginning to be 'like his mother' or how this manifested itself, but does it have to refer to the killings? I can't see why it should, to be honest.
I quite like the idea that has been proposed that he might have been heading for a psychological specialist or a doctor in the Hammersmith area, but may have received discouraging results and therefore, instead of taking the route home by train, he jumped in the Thames.
All the best
(Message edited by Glenna on August 02, 2005)
G. Andersson, writer/crime historian
Sweden
The Swedes are the men That Will not be Blamed for Nothing
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 766
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 8:58 pm: |
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Glenners....
Its a "no-lose" situation from where I sit,my man. Andy's article doesn't appear to me to be oblivious to the objections that you or I or anyone else have to why Druitt ended his life.
Being a "street guy", I'm now interested in his brother's account a lot more than before. I have this "gut" thing now about how his brother doesn't mention that he has 5 other family members..and how he found the suicide note [ my brother can imitate my handwriting to a tee..],but as I said before...thats as far as I will go on this thread. Thankfully,huh?
Its a very good and expansive view on a suspect that some of us may have given short shrift to..and Mr.Spallek's objectivity to his suspect is a relief.
Its funny how you can read an article not as a part of the A-Z, The Ultimate,or any other encyclopedic work and "see" things you may have democratically looked at before in a different way. Thats the beauty of the diversity of the Ripper related magazines' contents, in this instance,Ripper Notes...Its also in how you say something rather than what. A lot of this article's contents were read elsewhere...but not presented in the way Andy presented it.
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Rosey O'Ryan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 5:49 am: |
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Dear Howard,
Interesting idea your constructive and (perhaps) informative experiment. A couple of questions.
Will you be using waterproof ink of the period... due to a variety of reasons this stuff is becoming a finite resource :-)
Whatever, I hope you are not proposing to use a biro!
And so, the ink is proven to fade, yet the print on the ticket remains and the dimensions of a SEASON ticket remain, surely? It is either a SEASON ticket for travelling by train or... what?
Rosey :-)
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J.Smith
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 02, 2005 - 1:04 am: |
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Hi Sir Robert(any relation to the 1888 Sir Robert?), Andrew and Howard.
This sounds like an experiment for that TV show 'Mythbusters'. If this was proven to be a myth about the tickets being legible, then does this mean he was murdered and made to look like a suicide.
Also, the conditions at the wreck of the Titanic are vastly different to that of the Thames.This would not be a good contrast. |
Sir Robert Anderson
Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 495
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 8:08 pm: |
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"Hi Sir Robert(any relation to the 1888 Sir Robert?)"
My Dad's folks were Methodists from Dublin, but I doubt there's any connection. My name just happens to be Robert Anderson, and since there were about a dozen Roberts on the boards before me, it seemed like the thing to do.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 772
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 11:01 pm: |
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Dear Rosey..
Good question on the type of ink. I am pretty sure I can get my hands on some indelible ink. I'm gonna try it just as a test.
Dear J.Smith...
No,I'm not "setting out" to disprove anything about the Druitt affair...just the ink separating from paper after one month. Mr. Spallek's article got me "going",when I remembered the body was said to be in water for a month and the documents being legible. We'll see what happens..Personally,just to be a "purist"...it may be better to test the Thames. The Thames is partially salinated,isn't it? The river near me isn't. Thanks for the interest...
Dear Sir Bob Robert...Man,I go out of my way to set you up with a one-liner and you let it go !
You should have asked why I didn't put a "green mahalishi" in my front pocket...
...Because it would have made my peter green*...
...and you're from New York ?
* Peter Green was the great guitarist from Fleetwood Mac,who wrote a song called, The Green Mahalishi...
(Message edited by howard on August 03, 2005) |
Sir Robert Anderson
Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 496
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 11:10 pm: |
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"You should have asked why I didn't put a "green mahalishi" in my front pocket...
...Because it would have made my peter green... "
Beautiful. There was a Rumour to that effect...
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 416
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 8:02 am: |
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Hello Howard and Sir Robert and Andy Spallek,etc.
I look forward to reading the results of your experiment with immersed documents in the murkey
depths of the Schuykill River, Howard.
Andy: I think a thorough study of the mysterious watermen who roamed the tides and mudflats of the Thames looking for lost treasures and drowned businessmen in Victorian London, would be a useful line.Did they steal from the dead?
I am sure the Metropolitan Police would have had a well established procedure for coping with and identifying floating corpses apparently "Found Drowned ". Ranging from a central register; a Coroners' Procedure manual; and a system of photographing the corpse or its effects, to be displayed in posters outside police stations.
From memory, one prominent Ripper author has studied the case of the Ripper suspect whose corpse was found floating in the Thames, its face blackened with burnt cork or something...A photo was taken of the deceased for future identification. (Cannot recall the Ripper authors name...Begg?, Fido?...? Anyone?).
Lastly, my experience of wet documents only extends to observing that tightly wrapped or bundled sheets of paper tend to exclude most water, allowing the centre pages to escape long periods undamaged and legible. |
Restless Spirit
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 82
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 4:36 pm: |
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Howard
right on. I have at least 10 books on JtR backed up waiting for me to read.
I have many already read however, I just can't seem to get enough of the reading. I doubt that I am missing very many if at all, and each one seams to present information that the last one didn't have, or disputes what was written previously.
Although I am leaning toward Thomas Cutbush and still have Kelly in the background, does not mean that absolute proof wouldn't sway me because it would. After all that's what has yet to be presented, ABSOLUTE PROOF.
all my best Howard PS How are the Girls??
Restless Spirit
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Sir Robert Anderson
Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 498
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 04, 2005 - 7:08 pm: |
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"After all that's what has yet to be presented, ABSOLUTE PROOF. "
Hey Restless - I think that we are unfortunately fated to never have absolute proof on many many aspects of the Case, let alone with respect to Jack's identity. That doesn't mean we shouldn't try to solve the Case, because it may very well be that some day we might come close...but absolute proof...I can't see it happening.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1985
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 9:16 am: |
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Hi How,
I thought it was The Green Manalishi. But you are definitely a Man of the World.
Hi Sir Robert,
Rumours came after the girlies joined in. I preferred the days of Black Magic Woman and Need Your Love so Bad. Pious Bird of Good Omen was one of the first albums I bought.
Sadly, Peter Green is not the man he once was. I saw him at the Fairfield Halls a few years back and the old spirit wasn't there.
Sorry, this post is not all the ticket either.
Back to Druitt (who didn't do it).
Love,
Caz
X |
Restless Spirit
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 84
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, August 05, 2005 - 3:51 pm: |
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Sir Robert Anderson
I still feel that there is PROOF out there that has yet to be discovered. Someone is in possession of this PROOF who doesn't realize the importance of the info.
It may not be discovered in our lifetime but maybe the next.
regards
Restless Spirit
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 930
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 2:19 pm: |
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Hello folks. Just back from holiday and catching up.
Glen --
"although I still fail to see any clear reason for Druitt's high level of suspicion. My bet is that Macnaghten got influenced by George R Sims to a large degree in his preference for Druitt, but that is of course impossible to prove."
I see what you mean and indeed the original reason for Druitt's being suspected is hidden from us. The reason lies in the "private information" received by Macnaghten. Unfortunately, we haven't a clue as to what this is or where it came from. But unless you think MM is lying or hopelessly incompetent, you must acknowledge the existence of this evidence. I rather think Sims was influenced by Macnaghten rather than vice versa.
Howard,
Unfortunately, I still don't think the experiment is going to prove anything. We don't know what kind of paper or ink was used or whether the documents were folded or placed in a wallet. (The conditions on the Titanic wreck are indeed different but these have been submerged for 93 years!)
John,
The author that spoke of the back-faced doctor was Edwin Woodhall (Jack the Ripper or When London Walked in Terror, 1938). Howells and Skinner cover this extensively (this might be what you are remembering). Woodhall's account appears to be a fanciful recollection based on the Dr. Holt incident. But the real Dr. Holt did not commit suicide in the Thames as Woodhall's character does. Still, the bit about the mortuary photgragh is very interesting and, if based on a kernel of truth, might just have been the elusive morgue photo of Druitt. This is covered in my article on p. 6. What I would like to have is a comprehensive list of all bodies recovered from the Thames from Nov. 10 - Jan. 31, 1888-89.
Andy S
(Message edited by aspallek on August 07, 2005) |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1280
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 5:18 pm: |
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Andy
I rather think Sims was influenced by Macnaghten rather than vice versa.
Yes - I reckon the Littlechild Letter reads as if Sims had been told (presumably by Macnaghten) that a "Dr D" was a suspect, but didn't know his full name.
What I would like to have is a comprehensive list of all bodies recovered from the Thames from Nov. 10 - Jan. 31, 1888-89.
From a previous discussion, this information should be in the River Occurrence Books kept by the Metropolitan Police Marine Support Unit, and covering the part of the river between Dartford and Chelsea Bridge.
I think they're held at the Wapping Police Station Museum. The National Archives' information leaflet on Metropolitan Police records says "The Metropolitan Police Historical Museum and the Wapping Police Station Museum will try to answer written enquiries."
http://www.catalogue.nationalarchives.gov.uk/RdLeaflet.asp?sLeafletID=104
Chris Phillips
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 931
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 1:10 am: |
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Thanks, Chris. I may give it a go but I think a British citizen would stand a greater chance. I also agree with your assessment of the Littlechild letter and its implications on the source of Sims information.
Andy S. |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 419
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 5:47 am: |
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Andy,
Thanks for identifying the book which details the black-faced doctor, who played amateur sleuth in
Whitechapel in 1888.
I had tracked this down whilst you were on holidays.
But I am anxious to know what proof there is that Dr William Holt of Willesden, who worked at St George's Hospital, London, did not drown in the Thames?
I am commencing a Dr Holt thread elsewhere to pursue this very subject, because I feel -as do you- there seems to be a tittle of truth in Woodhall's story of the drowned doctor.
Neither Howells & Skinner nor Melvin Harris' JACK THE RIPPER - THE BLOODY TRUTH provide evidence of their claim Holt did not drown. |
J.Smith
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, August 06, 2005 - 9:57 am: |
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HI again,
I do agree with Caroline, I have never thought J.M. Druitt to be the ripper. The reason why I joined this thread is that I have not ruled out the possibility that Druitt may have been framed to look like the ripper. If he was set up, then the items found on him may have been placed there after he was murdered. The ticket test could proove this.
As for him being the ripper - I have always precluded him on these grounds. I always use as a base, the really solid witness accounts of the ripper - Shwarts, Brown, Lawnde. They describe a man who was stout and full faced. Druitt is not stout and thin in the face. In fact he matches no witness descriptions. All the best - Jason.
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 932
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 1:26 pm: |
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Jason,
Yes, we do have to consider the possibility of a framing wrt Druitt.
Actually, the witness descriptions are not really far off. They describe a man of about 30 years of age (Druitt was 31) and about 5'7" tall. (we don't know Druitt's height but 5'7" appears plausible). I know that the build does not match Druitt's photos but remember that these are photos of a younger Druitt. He may have added weight as he aged as do most of us. Also, heavy clothing may make a thin person appear stout. I actually think Druitt fits the witness description reasonably well. But we always have to be cautious about such descriptions as they often contain serious errors.
John,
I'll check on this tonight but I'm almost sure Eddelston gives an actual death date for Holt which is much later than 1888.
Andy S.
(Message edited by Aspallek on August 08, 2005) |
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