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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 781
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 7:09 pm: | 
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Folks...
There are probably four schools of thought regarding the suspectibility of Stephenson.
The first is that he was never or is now a suspect in the WM.
The second is that regardless of when he was deemed a suspect, he should be considered a suspect, since RDS has been in the mix for years now. [Stan Russo,for one,uses this approach to Stephenson and others. Stan does not endorse Stephenson as the Ripper, but considers him suspect-worthy...]...
The third is that Stephenson was a contemporary suspect in 1888.
The fourth is that RDS is a modern suspect.. since O'Donnell's manuscript..the Whittington-Egan references....the mentioning of RDS on the 1988 centennial program, with Melvin Harris...up to today.
The first two schools of thought aren't debateable. You either think he is a suspect or you do not. Likewise, the second school of thought is a personal concept....which takes us to the latter two.
Where do you stand and why,dear reader,on the concept that Stephenson would have slipped under the radar,without O'Donnell, et al.......or was he a suspect back in the Autumn of Terror?
Do you think he was the mystery patient that left London Hospital in December of 1888 that was under surveillence after leaving the Hospital without hospital knowledge?
Do you think that the worst that Stephenson was during that Fall, was a prankster, who might have been the Ripper, but was not deemed suspect worthy to those who were in the know...the police ?
Have another plausible scenario? Then, by all means placate it here...
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Sir Robert Anderson
Chief Inspector
Username: Sirrobert
Post Number: 513
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 08, 2005 - 10:33 pm: |
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" since O'Donnell's manuscript.."
Access to O'Donnell's book would be the money shot in this case, Howard. He, and he alone, had access to folks that might be speaking from actual knowledge first hand. IMHO, the text would be both a revelation as well as a scandal. That it hasn't been seen since being purchased by MH tells volumes.
Sir Robert
'Tempus Omnia Revelat'
SirRobertAnderson@gmail.com
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Jennifer Pegg
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Jdpegg
Post Number: 2811
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 3:26 pm: |
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If Stead thought him a suspect,which i dont know if is true or not then how can he not be a contemporary suspect, since Stead is after all his contemporary. |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 784
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 5:05 pm: |
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Jennifer...
There were probably many people [ take the claim that a Druitt family member believed him to be the Ripper* ] in the East End that felt that someone they knew may have been the Ripper. Stead's statement in the introduction of some articles in the 1896 issue of Borderlands which were penned by RDS to me...to me...is a publishers hype of a writer for his magazine. Does anyone seriously believe that Stead or any other magazine publisher would associate with someone who did what RDS would have done had he been the Ripper ? Stead claims he was one of the most remarkable people he ever met. Okay.... Then he says he was under the impression that RDS was the Ripper for over a year. These are plaudits,Jennifer,in my opinion, that only sold the story before it was read. Getting a reader intrigued in the author enhances the article....and makes for future stories to sell.
Sir Bob:
You hit the nail on the head,my man. I have this feeling that the balance of the O'Donnell may have shown RDS in a different light,had we had the opportunity to examine all of the material in it. Not that he wasn't the Ripper or was the Ripper....but certain claims and dates and whatnot.
Then again,maybe thats all there was related to RDS in the O'Donnell. If so...drat ! If not..then we would all benefit to see it.
So,Jennifer...I don't know that Stead's statement makes him anymore of a suspect [ contemporary ] than it would the deserving victim of some jilted prostitute who wanted revenge for being shortchanged or roughed up and cried out to the nearest policeman..."Hey ! This guy has a knife ! He's Jack The Ripper !!"...
* just using Druitt for an example here and not being dismissive to his candidacy... |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 453
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 9:44 am: |
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Hi Sir Robert,
I remember having read on these boards somewhere that the O'Donnell manuscript was discovered by Andy Ayliffe, perhaps he still has a copy.
I also understand that Bernard O'Donnell was a journalist for Empire News. I read a few copies of this dated 1935 at Colindale a couple of years back, and my impression of it was that it was not a particularly reliable newspaper, it contained mostly trivial stories designed to titilate readers on a sunday morning, and I for one would not take anything I read there to be gospel. Also I beleive that the journalist Donald Mc.Cormick may have been a contributor.
Rgds
John |
AIP
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 09, 2005 - 11:26 am: |
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The full O'Donnell text regarding D'Onston appears in Melvin Harris's book 'The True Face of Jack the Ripper', hasn't Sir Robert seen this? |
Ivor Edwards
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 10, 2005 - 10:04 pm: |
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John S,
The O'Donnell papers were not discovered by either Andy Aliffe or Melvin Harris although both claim credit.Harris in fact posted on this site some years ago disputing Andy Aliffe's claim.He is on record as stating that Andy was simply acting on his instructions. Richard Whittington-Egan is the man who first published the contents of them in the 1970's.... before Andy or Melvin ever wrote about them.It was on the advice of Whitting-Egan that Melvin Harris wrote his book on D'Onston, The True Face. It was through Whittington-Egan that Harris found out about the O'Donnell document and purchased the copyright.The Cremers and D'Onston story were included in Whittington-Egan's book and Harris repeated the story in the True Face. It was Whittington-Egan who was responsible for bringing the Cremers and D'Onston story into the public eye but the guy hardly ever gets a mention.Maybe because his book was a rather small limited edition.Best wishes. |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 793
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 7:45 pm: |
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Dear AIP....
Are you sure about that statement regarding the full text of the O'Donnell ? Would you please elaborate ? Thanks very much.
The Cremers/Donston story is also in the J.O.Fuller book, "The Magical Dilemma of Victor Neuberg " 1965 as well as Richard W-Egan's book, A Casebook On Jack The Ripper1975. Mrs. Fuller appears to have beaten R.W-E to an in-print rehashing of the Cremers/Donston story by a decade.
Thats alright,Ivor. Everyone makes mistakes. |
Ivor Edwards
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, August 12, 2005 - 11:23 pm: |
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I wish to make the following clear as there appears to be a misunderstanding.
We know that the D'Onston/Cremers story was doing the rounds prior to Whittington-Egan's Book.It was even mentioned by Aleister Crowley. But these stories did not stem from the O'Donnell papers. I was referring to the O/Donnell papers...NOT to be confused with any other source.For example in the Crowley version there were five white ties...in the O/Donnell papers Cremers did not state the ties were white or the exact number. There is another distorted version of the D'Onston/Cremers story which includes the ties which appeared in the East Anglian Daily Times on 30 November 1929....by Pierre Girouard an ex Paris policeman.It is a story given by a Baroness about a doctor she knew who was involved with Black Magic and who sold perfumes.It Includes the story of the Dr.passing his hand across his throat when asked by the Baroness about his wife and goes on to mention the blood stained ties.This version states that the motive for the murders were occult ritual sacrifices. |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 455
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 7:50 pm: |
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Hi Ivor,
Thanks for the information on the O'Donnell papers, a very interesting resume. In my earlier post I was simply trying to point out that the Empire News was not a paper of note such as The Times or The Telegraph, and as such I feel caution needs to be taken in stories that eminate from it or it's reporters. My opinion having been formed when reading their reports of Dr. Thomas Dutton.
I regret that I have never been lucky enough to lay my hands on a copy of Richard Whittington-Egan's book, however in the meantime I shall try to get hold of Miss Overton Fuller's book and read what she has to say.
Rgds
John |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 794
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, August 13, 2005 - 8:11 pm: |
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John....
There is a reference to the the Girouard story on page 141-143 of True Face.
Harris states that a variation of this story [ Harris points out that the story probably refers to Fogelma, the Norwegian sailor....the secret societies mentioned in the Girouard article most likely refer to Cremers and her involvement with the Society for the Suppression of Vice in New York,under Anthony Comstock ] had been in circulation since 1902. Girouard may have read the story in 1923, according to Harris. |
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