|
 |
 |
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
    
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 727
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 8:03 am: | 
|
Gang...
Those who are aware of the Dead or Alive story [ in the 1892 Review of Reviews, edited by W.T.Stead ], know of the tragic demise of the former girlfriend of RDS, a Miss Louise, surname unknown. Its the story of a ghostly encounter during the year Stephenson was shot in the thigh while on the Flying Scud off of Flamborough...in 1868.
This presents yet another problem with the chronological facts regarding RDS. Allow me to demonstrate.
The story begins with the recollection of events 25 years previously,briefly touching on the Customs House job RDS had in 1868, his alleged engagement to a North-country heiress,and then to the discussion of his having to break off an affair he was having with a local Hull girl, this Louise.
Stephenson specifically mentions the date here of the original meeting on the bridge. This is crucial to this story as we shall see. The date is August 26th, 1867. RDS says,with certainty,that the events can be substantiated.
As RDS describes it, his girlfriend Louise recites some Longfellow {Bridge}...and they soon make a pact that they will meet each year,on the same night, August 26th...dead or alive.
The next year,which is 1868,naturally, RDS and Louise meet and according to Mr.Two Timer, apparently still engaged-only with the rich girl,during this "punctual" meeting, Stephenson states that he doesn't want to renew this annual rendezvous. But Louise insists and RDS gives in...One more year of the "dead or alive" meeting.
The next year is where the confusion is found.
On page 98 of The True Face, Stephenson states that in the next year [ which is now 1869,that the year passed rapidly for him. He mentions the Flamborough shooting and that it occurred in July. Of this,there is no doubt. Andy Aliffe found the evidence and the article in the Bridlington Quay-Observer newspaper of July 16th...
...but in 1868.
R.J. Palmer sent me a list,that Robert Chas. Linford is investigating, of Yorkshire girls, one of whom may be the girl RDS dumped for a woman he may have been dumped by likewise. The Louise in the story ostensibly died in April or May in Liverpool...More information when it comes in.
|
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2236
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 9:11 am: |
|
Hi How,
Will have to come back on all this later-v busy but fascinated by all this news on Stephenson!
Nats |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 760
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 12:18 pm: |
|
Hi all,
I was under the belief that Melvin Harris debunked this story as a repeat of an old ghost story that D'Onston appropriated for himself. In which case, "Louise" may just be a fictional detail to give corroboration to an otherwise bald and uninteresting narrative.
Harris debunking of the story was not in his study of D'Onston as in an earlier book in which he discussed several famous ghost legends.
Jeff |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 732
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 4:38 pm: |
|
J.B.
Once again,you come through like a champ.
"Harris debunking of the story was not in his study of D'Onston as in an earlier book in which he discussed several famous ghost legends."
See why we have these threads going,J.B ?
In the section of True Face that does discuss this event,Harris said the following:
"The events that put him in a bath-chair were not the result of the death of his loved one but involved a suspicious shooting affair. The phantom footsteps on the bridge were heard in Hull, not in London. What then can we believe in this account ? Surprisingly the answer is: everything.".... page 100
All this from a man who went out of his way,in his own book, to attack the Maybrick Diary. The fact that the attack was on the Maybrick Diary or on the Theory of Relativity is not an issue.
The issue is that it has to be considered if whether Harris knew that Stephenson was not a viable suspect or perhaps was intentionally hyping up someone himself. Harris is supporting the Louise story in his book, when he says we can believe everything. The sad fact is,is that some do.
For a man who prided himself on debunking myths to suddenly forgetting while compiling the True Face of JTR afterwards that he had already debunked this Louise story is preposterous and intentionally misleading..Imagine the vitriolic response from the Melvinator had someone else tried such malarkey ! Oy !
Right now,I don't know who is the bigger bullshit artist...Stephenson and his Indiana Jones concoctions...the people who continue to support this sort of sham...or Harris.
Thanks for sharing,J.B. I haven't read the story you are referring to. If you or anyone else would, could you please post the name of this book that debunked the Louise story before he worked on the True Face ?
I'll be honest Jeff...sometimes I get the impression that this Stephenson, who I am still very interested in,as he is definitely a part of the overall picture, is a fraud. Its not disheartening, but from my own point of view, unnecessary that people have had to argue and bicker with each other over discussing this man openly. Several of us have had a serious belief in him as a viable suspect. Because of the intentional and misleading statements on page 100 of True Face, that doesn't mean that Stephenson wasn't the Ripper....but it sure is discouraging to see such nonsense passed off in the way that it has been regarding not just this "Louise" story, but other unsupportable "facts" about RDS.
Ripperology is lucky to have a man like you on the side of truth,Jeff. You remain as always..The Goods.
Your admirer,
How |
Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 793
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 5:09 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff and How,
Yeah, the basic theme of the story is pretty much old as dirt. The returning lover ghost, the details of which are usually pretty stable, goes back centuries and was quite well known. It was featured in a large number of folk ballads, for example, with names like "The Suffolk Miracle," "The Holland Handkerchief," "The Lover's Ghost" and so forth that can be traced back to at least the 17th century.
(And for those who want a bit of trivia, if you trace that one back through the variations far enough you'll find that it's connected to the old classical myth of Orpheus and Eurydice, which was so far back the major detail -- that he didn't know the lover was dead -- is absent. If you trace the story forward you'll see lots of variants, including the recent Vanishing Hitchhiker tales where the detail of being a former lover has been changed to being a stranger, presumably because it gets less and less likely as we get to the modern age that you wouldn't hear about it if your lover up and died.)
So, as Jeff points out, trying to track down the real life ghost could very well be a wild goose chase, as it's likely he'd make up a former lover instead of going around telling such an old story that so many people would know is false about some real individual.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
|
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 734
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 5:31 pm: |
|
Dan..
Whats disturbing,my man,is that Harris,more and most importantly before you or I or J.B. knew, is that there was a precedent for this sort of "returning ethereal lover" story...These sort of stories are best found in the dreadful National Enquirer, a magazine that my cats won't defecate on in their litter box.
For RDS to attempt to pass them off,there could be a reason why he may have written the story. In the 19th century, ghosts were the crop circlesand UFO's of that age. Its a good-cuddle-up-with-a-bottle-and-a-babe story. I ain't telling you something you don't already know,being as involved with mythology sites as you are. Ghosts were "in' in the 19th Century...
But for Harris-Master Debunker to intentionally support the story is alarming.
Here I pestered poor Robert Chas. to check into Liverpool deaths of any women that may have been this ghost chick of Stephenson's.
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 761
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 7:35 pm: |
|
Hi Howard and Dan,
I'm glad my memory on this point wasn't wrong. However, I want to say this.
I find that there is an unintentional broadening side to this whole field of Ripperology. In trying to solve this mystery, there are all sorts of side points and issues that would never be probed otherwise. If somebody, in 1895, named "Alfred Templeton Smythe-Smyth" or something, had been shown to be the Ripper, and arrested, tried, and convicted (and punished by execution or life imprisonment in prison or asylum), nobody would really care much for the careers of any other parties who were once suspected. Druitt - a sad case of an obscure lawyer/barrister who was a suicide when losing all he held dear. D'Onston - a weirdo, into black magic, who knew some dubious people. Tumblety - a successful quack who was always involved with the worst types, and was not only suspected in the Whitechapel Murder but was also suspected in Lincoln's Assassination. Kosminski and Ostrog - two Jews who had mental problems.
Only those figures with some kind of respectable achievement (Sickert with his painting, Gull as a surgeon for the Royal Family, Stephen as a minor poet) or those with fully evil reputations (Bury, Deeming, Cream, Chapman) would be worth looking at again. I for one welcome the chance of rediscovering D'Onston, Tumblety, Druitt, Ostrog, Kosminski, and the other obscure subjects, as well as probing deeply into sidelights of the better known ones.
So, demerits to Melvin Harris for using the story of the ghost on the bridge as a true story of D'Onston's life, but let us still find out why D'Onston might have been shot in Hull in 1868
(if he was). And maybe he did know a woman named Louise. She may have shot him.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 443
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 24, 2005 - 8:13 pm: |
|
Hi Howard,
It is my belief that this story of the meeting on the bridge is probably no more than a figment of the imagination of old sudden death. Let me quote a few words from Harris, "The True Face".
"On the night of the 26th.August we took our last walk together, and a few minutes before midnight paused on a wooden bridge running across a kind of canal, locallly termed the 'drain'. We paused on the bridge listening to the swirling current against the wooden piles".
Now I know a little about these 'drains', we still have some in Hull. They are in fact large ditches, about 20-30 feet across, and serve the purpose of land drainage and are connected to the estuary were the outflow is controlled by sluice gates. Because of this there is virtually no current, certainly not 'swirling'.
Had he stood on the banks of the River Hull, were his fathers mill was situated he certainly would be able to hear a swirling current at tide times. The thing is he was a local man and could not have mistaken the river for a drain.
A small point I know, but to me evidence that he was making it all up.
Rgds
John |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 735
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 5:53 pm: |
|
Interesting story,John...
Robert Charles sent me an email that was sent to the brains of these collective threads, and from there maybe we can find out if there was a Louise RDS was using as in reference to the story.
Not that the ghost story part is true, but he most certainly may have a Louise in his family...more to come. Thanks again for sharing that story,Savage of Sculcoates !!!!
J.B. You are correct sir when you say..
"So, demerits to Melvin Harris for using the story of the ghost on the bridge as a true story of D'Onston's life..."
...and a thousand thanks to the late Mr. Harris for being the first and best to collect all of the material on RDS in one spot[ with a few exceptions ]....except for the hyped up crap. He was an obviously gifted man. I just am at a loss as to why he included the Louise story,for one example,since as you said,he had debunked it previously. It just doesn't make sense.
When a person is initially interested in a suspect [ take me for example ] who has a book written specifically [ well,almost specifically...]about said suspect, for me at least,its not unusual to read the material subjectively,if you are "taken" by certain aspects of that person in regard to their candidacy as being the Saucy One. Either way RDS swings in all of this, he is still really,really interesting to me. I don't dismiss the guy like I whined yesterday,Jeff...I'm just pissed off about how many times I've had to read and re-read the material on RDS from before to be sure dates are in order and that too much time is not being spent on things people already knew were not true, such as the arrest lie,the bolthole lie,the Deary murder theory,and the medical degrees claims. I have trouble believing in the trip to the States,but hey,who knows,huh?
I agree 100 percent with you,J.B. Its great to find out about all the suspects and even non-suspects. It hurts no one and is educational,as well as being fun to the nth degree. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 764
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 9:36 pm: |
|
Hi Howard and John,
I think it is obvious why D'Onston wrote that story as a personal ghostly "tragic" experience.
D'Onston needs money, and he is aware that Stead is heavily into spiritualism. So if Stead wants to hear of things that seem to go bump in the night, why shouldn't D'Onston give hims a personal experience. Not only does he make some money on the publication (I'd like to know what any essay in THE PALL MALL GAZETTE under Stead was financially worth to the author), but it further establishes D'Onston's connection with a prominent figure of the day, Mr. William Thomas Stead. The more you think about it, the wonder is that D'Onston did not write more pieces than he did for THE PALL MALL GAZETTE.
[Unless, of course, there are pieces he wrote for it that we are not aware of.]
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 403
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 25, 2005 - 10:07 pm: |
|
Hello all,
Don't forget that the very story following 'Duffy and the Devil' (the unquestioned source for the Openshaw letter rhyme) in Robert Hunt's 'Cornwall' book is an early rendition of D'Onston's Ada/Louise story. I wrote all about it in my recent Ripperologist article. There's hundreds of stories in this book, but these two happen to follow side by side. Interesting.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 736
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 10:03 am: |
|
Tom:
Not only is that "Duffy and The Devil" reference from your outstanding article in Ripperologist,# 56, of November,2004, the exact reason I re-read that section of True Face and came across the "problems" with the dates [ regarding the year to year rendezvous] in the first place, but it also brought up three other items I might as well put here.
The first,and thanks for bringing it up to me,as I would have forgotten it, is the fact that there is yet another possible problem with yet another D'onston story. That being that a person such as Mabel Collins,a writer,author,and woman of letters,would NOT have heard of the "Ada" story herself prior to RDS whipping it out on her,[as Collins would have been 40 years old] and almost certainly,being involved heavily with the whole Theosophical,ghost,and seance world, must have heard one variation of it over the years. For her to fall for it, as you suggested in your article,to me its more likely that she may not have and this is yet another in the mounting pile of self-inflating stories rendered by RDS. Thanks for bringing it up,Tom...I would have forgotten to mention this. Think about it. Collins, a world reknowned novelist not hearing a version of the "Ada" story in 40 years.....
The other two relevant parts [ out of several ] of your story,without getting too heavy here,unless you want to on your own,are the "praserved" reference and "O,have you seen the devil" which is similar to the "O,most sapient conclusion" excerpt from an RDS letter. It was a very important article on RDS.
...and J.B. The same for goes for Stead,as it does Collins. Especially Stead ! The man had to have heard a variation of this story. It does make sense that he would use it in the PMG, as he had and would use stories that were fantasy-based in the PMG, written by RDS. Good call on your part.
That brings up another thing regarding Sudden Death...He mentions he wrote for scientific journals. Anyone have knowledge of some of the contemporary journal/magazines of that day that he could have written for?
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 766
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 11:04 am: |
|
Hi again Howard,
If you mean something like SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, I can't think of many names. But certainly the local library near you (main branch, of course) could - in it's reference room - list periodicals connected with say the Royal Geographic Society (don't forget, Sudden Death claimed to be like Captain Spaulding, an African Explorer). One organization that should have an intense listing of contributors that might definitely include D'Onston would be British Society for Psychical Research on which Edmund Gurney was once a founder and honorary secretary until his death in 1888.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 404
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 8:01 pm: |
|
Howard,
Among Collins' circles, the 'Ada' story was so common it was probably accepted as fact - i.e., because they believed in such nonsense, hearing the same or similar incident(s) happening to many individuals only strengthened their belief.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 739
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 8:31 pm: |
|
Tom:
Thats a good possibility. Then again,its sort of hard to bullshit the bullshitter. Collins having heard it,as you stated and probably correctly too, should have known better. She made up enough stories of her own [ check out the story about her talking to this woman's dead child..among other tales.] to know when a crock o' crap was heading her way.
Just like if someone told you or me the canard about the "man with the hook for a hand" story...where you and a young lady go out to a deserted road...you step out for a second to see a man about a horse...and your girl stays in the car. You get whacked by the man with the hook...well,you know the rest. |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 740
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 8:33 pm: |
|
Jeff...Thanks for the lead. I'll get on it. |
auspirograph
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 26, 2005 - 4:03 pm: |
|
Hi Jeff,
Thanks for your earlier and interesting post and I agree with you that Donston took full advantage of Stead's preference for 'spooky love' stories that appealed so much to Victorian sensibilities. But he could not have been making much of a living from writing as stated elsewhere and had to rely on some other yet undetermined source of income.
The article being discussed was actually published in the 1892 issue of the 'Review of Reviews' as Howard mentioned in the opening post.
Going from memory, I think that Donston was paid 4 pounds for his article in the Pall Mall Gazette of January 1889 after negotiating with Stead who wanted to pay him 2 pounds.
The establishing of Donston's connection with Stead is well advanced but in my view, they where not exactly compatible in all their thinking on supernatural concerns. Stead was a non-conformist spiritualist while Donston, as we know, was well versed in the arcane pleasures of the occult arts.
What is interesting to me is that Stead left the Pall Mall Gazette as it's editor in 1889 just after the Ripper scare. One would think that an editor who had built up that newspaper's circulation would continue on a lucky streak but not Stead. He was determined to set up with new backing a periodical that would better reflect his interests and social agenda. So it's unlikely that Donston wrote for the Pall Mall Gazette beyond his January and Febuary articles.
The Review of Reviews was not to be the raging success that Stead had envisioned but Donston is known to have written several articles for it.
Regards
Spiro
auspirograph@yahoo.com
|
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 5203
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 30, 2005 - 8:27 am: |
|
There was a Thomas Piles recorded on the fishing vessel "Advance" in Yorks in the 1871 census. He is the captain, aged 38, born Brixham, Devon. There are a mate, two fishermen and a boy with him.
In view of the smuggling angle, here is an item which could be about him, though he may be a tad young :
MAR 28th 1849
Robert |
|
Use of these
message boards implies agreement and consent to our Terms of Use.
The views expressed here in no way reflect the views of the owners and
operators of Casebook: Jack the Ripper.
Our old message board content (45,000+ messages) is no longer available online, but a complete archive
is available on the Casebook At Home Edition, for 19.99 (US) plus shipping.
The "At Home" Edition works just like the real web site, but with absolutely no advertisements.
You can browse it anywhere - in the car, on the plane, on your front porch - without ever needing to hook up to
an internet connection. Click here to buy the Casebook At Home Edition.
|
|
|
|
