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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 660
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2005 - 12:42 pm: | 
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Waaaay back in April of 2001, Martin Fido,while discussing RDS on a now archived thread [ available on the Casebook CD-ROM ], made reference to RDS...
"with genuine medical training at Heidelberg..Author: Martin Fido
Tuesday, 10 April 2001 - 06:16 am"
My question is where is it noted for certain that RDS was at Heidelberg [ I am still waiting for the University to verify some questions regarding the matter ] studying medicine?
There is a problem about the statement in "True Face" regarding the "former right hand man" of Baron Justus Liebig , a Dr. James Allan, a Scotsman, was said to have been the tutor of the 17 year old Stephenson [ this collaboration or tutoring occurring in 1858 ]..
I've had a bit of difficulty in locating this Dr. Allan. Using Mr. Fido's 4 year old "lead" that RDS studied at Heidelberg [ evidently coming from the late Mr. Harris. ]. Maybe someone else will be a bit luckier.
The main problem with this [ for me at least ] is the time frame in which this is supposed to have happened.
First of all ,Baron Liebig was not a surgeon [ as the attached hyperlink shows...]. Mr. Harris doesn't say that he was,nor does he mention Allan being a surgeon either. Baron Liebig and this elusive Dr. Allan, were chemists...and Liebig a great one.
So..in 1858, RDS was 17 years old.
In 1858, he goes to Munich and studies with this Dr. Allan. I believe it is a Britishism to say one "took rooms", as it states on page 93 of True Face. This means,therefore,he either resided on campus or off. Duh.
Now, chemistry is somewhat different than medicine. Its not remotely close to hands-on surgery. So...he didn't learn surgery from the non-surgeon Dr. Allan. He may have studied chemistry for a while and then, as many kids are known to do, switch "majors"...and go for another field.
We now go to Paris,where RDS is found the next year [ and playing hookey from chemistry class back in Germany ] talking with the son of Bulwer Lytton.
So...is there a doctor in the house?
Could a 17-18 year manchild obtain a medical degree within a less than two year period, probably closer to one and 1/2? Because in mid-1860,when RDS,who according to legend,has a medical degree by now, goes off to fight for Garibaldi.
The reason for this "questioning" of the claim that RDS had a degree is thus:
Going to a college..school..or recieving rudimentary instruction from a degreed medical man, is not recieving a degree. [ see Roots Report thread...someone gave Roots that impression..]
How long would it take a normal person to recieve a medical degree back in the late 1850's ?
RDS certainly didn't get a medical degree in the years 1860-1868. From Garibaldi to the Customs House is where we find him during this period...In 1861, he is found residing at home on the census. This still creates a 1 1/2 year time frame for him to go back and resume studies, but blowing it all and becoming involved at Customs House. Doesn't make much sense,does it?
Any ideas,folks?
Liebig URL: 40.1911encyclopedia.org/ L/LI/LIEBIG_JUSTUS_VON_BARON.htm
HowBrown
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2144
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2005 - 1:31 pm: |
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Hi Howard,
I think an appreticeship to a surgeon from the age of 15 to 19 was what often happened.This was followed by jr surgery in a hospital.
Its in the Life of John Keats,the poet who was an apprentice surgeon[somewhat earlier but things changed quite gradually during the 1800"s.
Natalie |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 661
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2005 - 2:46 pm: |
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Muchas gracias,Nats !
The only thing that is puzzling is that the tutelage under Dr. Allan had to begin in 1858,when Sudden Death was 17.
Stephenson meets Lytton's son in Paris in 1859..and then back to Germany.
Stephenson goes off to war in 1860. He is 19 years old.
He studyied chemistry,not medicine,under Allan.
Which is why, Nats, that I am pursuing,along with Savage of Sculcoates,the name of his school when in his early to late teens.
Thanks again for the mention of a 4 year tenure in your post. Thats what I thought it would take to get a degree, but waited for verification.
Hope today was better than your "black dog" Saturday.
HowBrown
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2145
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2005 - 3:10 pm: |
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Glad it was of some help,How.Today would have been ok but me and my spouse got up early to go over towards the Tower and all the roads were again closed off because of Saint Bob!Can"t stand him and all his rich friends telling us about how to relieve poverty in Africa!For pity"s sake!
It was exactly the same yesterday so London closed down for the entire weekend.
Moods not too bad now though as I am quite happy again
back on my lap top and the world"s great hero can
stay shut out ....[and to heck with them
Cheers
Natalie
ps We enjoyed "The Who" though and Pink Floyd last night.But then I heard "The Who" in Hyde Park in 1969!---better steer away from that-feeling my mortality again and another black dog!
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 663
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2005 - 3:29 pm: |
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Nats....
I hear you,woman ! Maybe in 10 years time,after all the effort that was wasted this time ,as in 1985, people will be wiser.
The one advantage that we had in Philadelphia,as opposed to London, was our police force. Everything was back to normal,last night,save the trash that the concertgoers normally leave. Small price to pay. Philly is amazing for keeping things from going haywire,but of course,London is a far larger hamlet.
We have our annual celebration of rebelling against your tyrannical control all those years ago,tomorrow...I will light a roman candle towards the heavens in tribute to you as well as the big bottle rocket reserved for Sir Robert Chazz Linford that I promised him just today.
But I gotta do it outside the city limits. Philly doesn't allow fireworks. Some "freedom of speech",huh?
HowBrown
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2147
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2005 - 3:44 pm: |
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Have a great time tomorrow Howard!Sure you will find somewhere outside city limits to let the fireworks fly!
Here"s to the 4th of July!
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4630
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2005 - 3:46 pm: |
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Dawn French could feed the world on her own if she went on a diet. 
PS Howard, I sent you the password.
Robert |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 664
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 03, 2005 - 10:00 pm: |
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Thanks for the password,sor. I'm gonna be there for the rest of my life now. So much to check out.
...and mums the word as you requested.
Just out of curiosity....Do you,Nats and Robert Chazz, see what I am driving at here? There doesn't seem to be enough time for anyone to obtain a degree [ of course,RDS or you or I could learn some basics of surgery and medicine in that time frame...] based on the schedule of Stephenson,in this instance. Does it make sense to you?
HowBrown
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 734
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 2:10 am: |
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Hi Howard,
You are presenting an intriguing problem about the time table and D'Onston. He doesn't seem to have real time to study medicine. But can he have purchased a degree from Old Heidleberg?
This may not be as odd a suggestion as it sounds.
In 1865, when Dr. Edward William Pritchard was on trial for murdering his wife and mother-in-law in Glasgow, the "good" doctor's credentials were severely questioned. Pritchard had a medical degree from the University of Gottingen in Germany. It sounded very impressive, but it turned out that he purchased it - and that it was common in the 19th Century for such degrees to be purchased.
Try to find Richard Altick's VICTORIAN STUDIES IN SCARLET (New York: Norton, 1970), and read his comments on Pritchard in the chapter "Trust Not The Physician". It may repay your research to look into that - also possibly when contacting Heidleberg (if you are) seeing if D'Onston is on any list as a degree purchaser.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4631
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 3:53 am: |
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Howard, yes, there doesn't seem enough time. But if he bought a degree as Jeff suggests, then you've got the opposite problem : how did he fill in the time?
Robert |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 735
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 11:47 am: |
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Hi Robert,
There are many ways he could fill in the time, and some probably would not be the type that somebody would brag about (except maybe someone like Alisteir Crowley).
Jeff |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2150
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 4:41 pm: |
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Howard,
Stephenson doesnt convince me really.For a start I cant accept that having got himself admitted to the London Hospital for neurasthenia
from summer 1888 to December 1888 he could have nipped out five times to perform "ritualistic" killings nipped back into bed and pretended to be very ill....all this without it being noticed!
I can believe he fraudulently obtained his doctors degrees and to my mind this fits with all this Black Magic gobbledegook.A fraud from start to finish yes but JtR I doubt!
Natalie |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 666
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 5:24 pm: |
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Robert Chas..
Thanks a million for that 1860 article you sent ! How about that,huh? People were buying degrees back then,like they do now. I'll put up a link to the one you sent in a minute. I will shoot off a block of "whistling chasers" for you tonight in tribute to your recent kind gesture in addition to the big ol' bottle rocket.
As for filling in his time,if he wasn't studying medicine...well,he was studying under this Dr. Allan,albeit in chemistry. Who knows how long he was with Bulwer-Lytton's son in Paris ? Its going to be a while before this period of time is "filled in" on his life. Thats a good question,R.C.
J.B.: He may have been studying necromancy or hanging out with that coterie, instead of studying medicine,which of course,we don't know for sure,yet, if he was.. This could explain his Dad getting him a job in 1863,and not using one of these alleged degrees, basically because he didn't really have one...perhaps a purchased one as you suggest. The article that Robert Chas. sent me states that a minimum of three years was required to obtain a degree and from the looks of it, not something that someone could take lightly in obtaining. Heidelberg was primarily for the very rich. Where,o,where,did Mr.Fido hear that about RDS going to Heidelberg !!!!
Nats...I can understand that feeling. I believe that from the time frame that Harris outlined in the True Face, that it was impossible.
If Stephenson did get a degree, just one, it appears that it had to come after 1868 and his departure from the Customs House.
Before I get all worked up over the claim that he recieved one in New York [ both degrees would have had to fit within the 1868-1876 time frame and included the trip out West, which took months,not days or hours,like now,to complete]..I'm going to wait and see if Heidelberg gets back to me.
HowBrown
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 667
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 5:38 pm: |
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Robert Chas:
If you could,sir,could you put that clip from the 1860 article on this thread for verification purposes ? Thank you.
HowBrown
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4632
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 6:30 pm: |
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"THE TIMES" JULY 30th 1860
Howard, Jeff, did RDS do no preparatory military training? I thought I read in the "Times" of the British volunteers taking a year to get ready.
Robert |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 668
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 8:07 pm: |
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Robert....
I think that Garibaldi was still organizing in late 1859 and into the early part of 1860.
RDS either left in 1859 to prepare or joined spontaneously in 1860. He may have recieved some military skill prior to joining,as he was allegedly a cavalryman.
Thanks for the placation and thats a very good question about the British Legion.
HowBrown
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 736
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 04, 2005 - 11:13 pm: |
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Hi Howard and Robert,
The newspaper clip verifies the story that Altick mentions about Gottingen selling degrees.
It was not listed, but it could have been. And,
for all the intense self-righteousness of Herr Doktor A.L. Meisner, the fact is that any school of higher learning needs cash and will "cut corners" if it is to its financial advantage, including Heidleburg. It goes on today, where the sons of alumnis are welcomed in, even if their grades are not that great, especially if Daddy or Mommy helped pay for a new football arena.
Garibaldi was willing to take anybody in as a volunteer - including questionable types. He couldn't afford to doublecheck everything. If RDS had a modicum of medical background somehow, he'd be of use. I mentioned Dr. Pritchard on this thread earlier - Pritchard insisted that a cane he had (which he put a metal plaque on) had been presented to him by Garibaldi. People who knew Pritchard knew he had owned the cane before Garibaldi came to Great Britain. Perhaps, like Pritchard, RDS just lied about the entire Italian story.
Other Victorian medical murderers lied about awards. Dr. Lamson's biographical squib mentioned Serbian and Roumanian awards gotten as a field surgeon - no proof of these has ever surfaced. Oddly enough, the one Victorian Doctor - murderer to have legitimate degrees was Thomas Neill Cream (from McGill University in Canada, and from the University of Edinburgh.
One would have thought Cream would have lied too, but he actually had the brains to get his own degrees (in poisons, naturally).
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 669
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 5:36 am: |
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This just in from the Eastern Front...
*************************************
Tgb. 1229/05 Ihre E-mail vom 03.07.2005
Dear Mr. Brown,
I am sorry to tell you that the two persons couldn't be found in our
records. Dr. James Allan and Robert Donston Stephenson.
Sincerely
I. V.
Hunerlach
Archivamtfrau
************************
* Universitätsarchiv *
* Heidelberg *
************************
* Akademiestr. 4-8 *
* 69117 Heidelberg *
************************
* tel: +49 6221 547543 *
* fax: +49 6221 547706 *
************************
archiv@urz.uni-heidelberg.de
HowBrown
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4634
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 5:41 am: |
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This is a possible for Dr Allan, albeit not a chemist.
Household:
Name Relation Marital Status Gender Age Birthplace Occupation Disability
James B. ALLAN
Head U Male 72 Scotland Physician
Helen ALLAN
Sister U Female 55 Sunderland, Durham, England From Rdy Shares
Lilly E. CLARK
Visr U Female 19 Kensington, Middlesex, England
Elizabeth E. LACEY
Serv U Female 25 Harbourne, Warwick, England Parlour Maid
Ann ABBOTT
Serv U Female 35 Harpenden, Hertford, England Housemaid
Mary Ann FLOOD
Serv U Female 40 Bradninch, Devon, England Cook
Source Information:
Dwelling 3 Hyde Park Ter
Census Place London, Middlesex, England
Family History Library Film 1341004
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 0016 / 26
Page Number 1
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4642
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 7:01 pm: |
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This might provide background info.
York University, Borthwick Institute of Historical Research: Dissertation entitled 'The Recruitment and Support of Garibaldi's British Legion in 1860.'
The contents of this catalogue are the copyright of York University, Borthwick Institute of Historical Research.
Rights in the Access to Archives database are the property of the Crown, © 2001-2004.
To find out more about the archives described below, contact York University, Borthwick Institute of Historical Research
Dissertation entitled 'The Recruitment and Support of Garibaldi's British Legion in 1860.'
Catalogue Ref. Thesis/136
Creator(s):
Di Carlos, John J, fl 1988
Carlos, John J, Di, fl 1988
[Access Conditions]
Open
Robert |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 671
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 05, 2005 - 8:24 pm: |
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Robert...
Thanks for this link. I'll get on this right away...
Wouldn't it be something if Stephenson's name was not on a list of these Legionnaires ?
As Jeff stated, Garibaldi probably would have accepted anyone. Maybe even someone caught up in the excitement of the far away Italian Revolution and fibbing to a degree about having a degree in medicine.
I don't know how you folks feel about it,but the pronouncement in True Face about how Stephenson "inflated his age to 22,in order to escape a veto from his father.." [ page 94 ],strikes me as somewhat decisive and mature. Here's why.....
In the previous paragraph, Mr. Harris,as usual,hammers away at Stephenson being without "compassion,charity,and humanity" as these "themes" are always absent regarding his general character.
I beg to differ. The act of fighting for a foreign cadre of idealists certainly shows altruism and sympathy for an ideal...that of Italian unification, in this instance.
Here is more unsupported dogma from the book.......
"Some men treasured the barbarous passions and Donston was one of those.." ---page 94
There's no evidence that Donston was barbarous prior to 1860. It makes his candidacy [ and book sales ] sound better. Mr. Harris's unfounded statement is based on the decision of a 19 year kid to fight for an ideal...much like British kids or American kids do when they join their respective armed forces in 2005.
This,along with current Stephensonian "facts" found elsewhere, is what has set the study of RDS backward...up to now. Dogmatic,denigrating,and above all...endorsed to sell books to kids in cellars listening to music with Satanic themes.
HowBrown
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4643
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 4:16 am: |
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Hi Howard
I don't know what RDS's motives in joining up might have been - mixed, I suppose, like many who volunteer.
If I was RDS I'd have been a bit uneasy about passing myself off as a doc, and booking myself to treat men with terrible injuries, if all I could do was apply an ointment for wasp stings.
But we don't know that RDS was medically ignorant prior to Heidelberg, do we? Wasn't there medical history on his mother's side? He may have absorbed some of that?
Robert |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 672
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 5:58 am: |
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Robt.
That may be absolutely correct,sir. The probability,if his mother's side was involved in medicine,that he had more than a rudimentary knowledge of medicine, is highly likely. Thats quite possible.
But thats not being in possession of a medical degree,as you know,naturally.
He may have been able to perform as well as a doctor with a medical degree...yet,the argument is not that. Its whether he had a degree.
Robert..Let me pose this idea if I may..
From the material we have available on RDS, I think Stephenson was perfectly capable of being a doctor or anything he wanted to be because of his intelligence and imagination.
What if...what if, the possibility of RDS being the Ripper was more so due to him not fulfilling his promise, due to a lifelong affinity to drink and drugs, and that this would culminate in the murder of those unfortunates in '88 ? What if there was a serious frustration factor involved in his life?
He appears to have dealt with many people in his life that did have degrees,prestige,status,and money among other things. Yet...there is this nagging picture of him,despite his hygiene awareness, of wearing clothes that are almost worn off. Something,to me at least,is not right.
HowBrown
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1576
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 8:35 am: |
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Hi Howard
You say, "Wouldn't it be something if Stephenson's name was not on a list of these Legionnaires ?"
I thought though that Andy Aliffe had established Stephenson's service with Garibaldi and that it was not in dispute. It seems that his medical degrees might be in doubt but I don't think it is doubted that he was a military surgeon in Garibaldi's forces and that he did go to California and was part of the gold rush. Africa might be another question.
The reason that I bring up the military service was that I threw some question on his entitlement to the rank of "Major" when I wrote one of my prior articles on D'Onston ("Letter from the Sickbed: D'Onston Writes to the Police"), and was told by Aliffe, who performed the research on D'Onston for Melvin Harris, that the rank was established and that it was proved that he did serve with Garibaldi.
All the best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
See "Jack--The Musical" by Chris George & Erik Sitbon
The Drama of Jack the Ripper Weekend
Charlotte, NC, September 16-18, 2005
http://www.actorssceneunseen.com/ripper.asp
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4644
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 9:01 am: |
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Hi Howard, Chris
I'm no Stephenson expert. If the rank of Major has been established, then fine. But I'm left wondering why RDS would have under-ranked himself in the 1861 census. 
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2158
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 10:19 am: |
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Stephenson sounds rather a complicated character.
My grandmothers brother had "neurasthenia" and died.I think it had something to do with an over active imagination and a kind of nervous breakdown.Never quite got to the bottom of it.
But you are right Howard,when you say he couldnt have been "all bad" and that the youthful gesture towards Garibaldi and his "Red Shirts" showed that then ,at least, he had some ideals and was possibly a bit of a Romantic.
This matches the mysticism. WB Yeats believed in something very close to Black Magic.Now Yeats is considered to be one of the greatest poets of the 20th century and he wrote in 1901
"I cannot think symbols less than the greatest of all powers whether they are used consciously by the masters of magic,or half consciously by their successors,the poet,the musician and the artist....Whatever the passions of men have gathered about,becomes a symbol in the great memory,and in the hands of him who has the secret
it is a worker of wonders,a caller up of angels or of devils."
....and Yeats like Stephenson seems to have practised or would have liked to practise the Black Arts!
What exactly I am saying about this I"m not sure....maybe that Stephenson could have been on the look out for Dramatic action and Adventure rather than accept the humdrum of daily life!
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 673
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 7:54 pm: |
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Dear C.G.
Chris, sometimes I forget that there is no way for someone to determine when someone else is kidding, unless said idiot says so,as said idiot didn't in the post above. My remark about RDS possibly not being on that list was an example. I have read that Mr. Aliffe did find evidence of RDS being in the British Legion and have read your excellent piece, Letter From The Sickbed. This is an excerpt from it:
"As if to give himself extra credibility with the quasi-military police, he added "Please address Major Stephenson" at the London Hospital. In actual fact, research by Andy Aliffe has revealed that D'Onston achieved the rank of lieutenant while serving with Garibaldi's army in Italy in 1860. The rank of "major" appears to have been self-bestowed....
So,it would appear that Mr. Aliffe found out after your August 1999 article in Ripperologist # 24 appeared that RDS achieved the rank of Major. Is this the case,kind sir ?
Because if it is, then Robert Chas. makes a very good point here. Why wouldn't he describe himself as a Major in the '61 census?
Robert Chas said.."I'm no Stephenson expert."
Neither am I sir. Thats whats behind this whole series of threads...to make a few.All these questions...and so little time. It makes a fat boy blue.
Nats,you deserve a smooch. The character-type you describe [adventurous,bored with convention,inquisitive,bright ] is exactly how I see RDS myself. Despite all this, as you can understand I am sure, that it does not mean he actually sat down long enough for a medical degree. Besides a bit of the blarney in him, I think he may have actually believed he had one after a few decades or so. Let me give you a brief example using a subject I knew pretty well....my own Dad.
My dad came from similar financial circumstances as RDS. There are more than just several similarities between the two,which I won't bore you with at the moment. One that is striking to me is the claim of RDS to have had a degree which is like my own Dad's claim of having graduated The University of Pa. back in 1938.
He didn't. But what he did do for many years was work at some of the top computer firms in America [ Burroughs,Sperry Rand,Univac, and eventually at Chrysler in Alabama on the Saturn V rocket as a technical writer. ].
One thing that always enabled my Dad was his appearance. No one doubted him,based on his looks. He could also do the job at hand,whether as a proof reader or pain-in-the-ass quality control supervisor at these firms. From reading on his own,he acquired the knowhow to do these complicated jobs. He had security clearance at NASA's Alabama division for 7 years. His old resume's have him attending The U of P in West Philadelphia.
Funny thing is...he never graduated high school. He was wilder than I was.
My Uncle Karl,who lives in Philadelphia, was asked to look into and retrieve the UP records back in the early 1970's, as my Dad was trying to land a job at Kerr-McGee in Oklahoma, while we lived in Texas. My Uncle came up shooting blanks. My Dad was livid. I can still remember him blasting my mom's family for being "bohunks" who couldn't find their hand if it wasn't scratching their collective asses.
Anyway,my Uncle couldn't find what was not there or was ever there,as the Old Man wasn't even around in Philadelphia in 1935-1939. But,Nats...my dad believed he had a degree in engineering. For real. No fooling. Its not impossible that RDS felt he was "entitled" to bestowing a degree upon himself as he had served with Garibaldi,may have learned rudimentary medical insight from the Dawber side of the family,or for any other reason you or anyone else might think.
And like you, I see less of a "barbarous" nature here in describing RDS than as an idealistic,energetic young man. That claim that he treasured savagery and gore is utterly baseless to me. Thanks for the Yeats quote,my dear woman...
Yours,
Bohunk
P.S. The Old Man ain't around to whomp me for this,but he used to talk about his days in the Marines in WW2. He was in WW2, but he was a corporal in the Army. I have his Honorable Discharge at home. The Marines sounded better I suppose.
HowBrown
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 674
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 06, 2005 - 8:01 pm: |
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C.G.
I had to do a double take here,sir...
If you know the time frame,could you please place it here,regarding the following statement you made above...the emboldened section,sor..
"but I don't think it is doubted that he was a military surgeon in Garibaldi's forces and that he did go to California and was part of the gold rush.
Thanks !
HowBrown
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Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1579
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 11:33 am: |
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Hi Howard, Natalie, Robert et al.
As I understand it in regard to the California Gold Rush, while D'Onston was not in the original 1849 gold rush when gold was discovered at Sutter's Mill, if he went to California in subsequent decades, as it appears he did, that would count as being part of the Gold Rush. Does that help?
Military titles are rather tricky. You can hold a rank in the Army of one designation but yet another, seemingly lower rank, in a regiment, at the same time. That is, for example, General Robert Ross who burned the public buildings of Washington D.C. in August 1814 was promoted to brigadier general and then major general while serving with Sir Arthur Wellesley (later the Duke of Wellington) in the Iberian Peninsula and southern France in 1813-1814. But at the same time, his highest rank in his own regiment, the 20th Regiment or East Devonshire Foot (later the Lancashire Fusiliers), was colonel.
There is also the question of brevet ranks, which are ranks awarded on the battlefield but that are not official until authorized by the high command, i.e., what was known as Horse Guards in London, where the British Army HQ was situated, or the War Department in Washington, D.C. in American terms. George Armstrong Custer was a lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Army when in 1876 he was killed at the Little Big Horn, and also held brevet commissions as major general of volunteers and major general in the U.S. Army.
The case with Stephenson might be that his official rank was lieutenant but that he was awarded the brevet rank of major on the battlefield. I sense that was the case and that is what Andy Aliffe, as I think I recall, told me after my article appeared in Ripperologist.
On the other hand, a man who changed his name with facility as well as adopted pseudonyms such as "Tautriadelta" and "Sudden Death" could have embroidered some on his past, though I have the sense that he was scrupulous about keeping to the military rank to which he was entitled.
Howard and everyone, I hope this helps.
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
See "Jack--The Musical" by Chris George & Erik Sitbon
The Drama of Jack the Ripper Weekend
Charlotte, NC, September 16-18, 2005
http://www.actorssceneunseen.com/ripper.asp
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4650
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 1:25 pm: |
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Thanks for that, Chris. Blimey, it's complicated!
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2164
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 3:23 pm: |
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Howard,
I began to post this earlier but the events of the day interrupted -a sad day indeed.
I understand how Stephenson"s claim can be seen as being a bit like the conviction of your dear Papa"s that he was entitled to his degree-therefore he had a degree!But thats almost certainly where the comparison ends!
Stephenson seems to me to be this maverick character given to "magical thinking" and a strong spirit of adventure. Maybe he simply didnt have the patience to finish his degree so made it simple by awarding himself one!I think I have graduated, therefore I have!
Perhaps some people do start to believe their own mythology about themselves?-a bit Walter Mitty like!Did you ever see the film Billy Liar with Julie Christie?Wonderfully memorable film about a character who took this sort of fantasy to extremes-I think Stephenson would have recognised a kindred spirit!
Natalie
their own |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2165
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 3:24 pm: |
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PS-that last bit"their own" is a mistake!Nats |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2166
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 3:27 pm: |
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Thanks Chris for your link and the historical info.Fascinating!
Natalie |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 677
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 7:10 pm: |
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Thanks Chris !
You stated..."if he went to California in subsequent decades, as it appears he did, that would count as being part of the Gold Rush. Does that help?
It could,sir, if you could provide a ballpark estimate of the date for this trip out West ! Has someone nailed down a time for this trip ,to your knowledge?
HowBrown
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 740
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 07, 2005 - 9:41 pm: |
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Hi all,
The period for the California gold rush was January 1848 (when Marshall found gold at Sutter's Mill) to roughly 1852. By that year so many people had entered California that it became the first far western territory of the U.S. to become a state (in 1850). Gold production would continue, but by 1852 there were enough new people to get involved with other businesses and industries (especially farming).
Example: In 1850 a German gentleman arrived in San Francisco, and proceded to lay the foundations of a large fortune as a dry goods store owner. In reality his future fame had little to do with his great business sense, but his fortune enabled him to make that career. His name was Heinrich Schliemann, and within 20 years he proved that Homer's Troy was not a figment of immagination, but had some grounds in fact. He also helped popularize archeology.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 715
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 12:34 pm: |
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Thanks Jeff...
Stephenson didn't necessarily have to participate in the California Gold Rush [ it was physically impossible for him to have done so until after he was 27 in 1868,if the Califronia Rush had still been on. By then the "Gold Rush" had died down somewhat, but individual prospectors did still dig for gold...as people do today in miniscule numbers..].....he may have mined in another Western state.
After he was 27...and before he was 35.
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 798
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 14, 2005 - 10:58 am: |
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I forgot to add this to the thread a while back...
On page 58 of True Face, Stephenson clearly states [ according to Cremers ] that he had a MD before going of to fight with Garibaldi in 1860.
Here then is the first claim of a medical degree...at the age of 19 at most and at least at the age of 18.
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Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1128
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 5:38 pm: |
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After an exchange of e-mails with Mr. Andy Aliffe, it appears that Stephenson did not recieve a medical degree.
Mr. Aliffe has had a copy [to peruse] of the coveted O'Donnell Manuscript and has been to the PRO in Kew.
I asked Mr. Aliffe if there was a reference for the claim which is often mentioned about RDS having a medical degree from his research. He said no.
I thank Mr. Aliffe for his candor and for assisting in the research into this strange character,Robert Stephenson.
I originally asked around for a copy of the taped Cloak and Dagger meeting after reading a claim made in an old Ripperologist Magazine [ August 2002 ], by Adrian Morris,that mentioned Mr. Aliffe claiming RDS had a law degree.
I have the tape of that meeting,provided by my number one female squeeze on the planet...and at no time did Mr. Aliffe mention this law degree. Mr. Morris was in error.
Nevertheless,I think it is finally safe to say with certainty that Stephenson,despite his acumen,knowledge,intelligence,and talent...failed to obtain a degree from a University or college.
How 11/15/05 |
Spiro
Sergeant
Username: Auspirograph
Post Number: 24
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 6:54 pm: |
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Howard,
That's wonderful news and thanks for sharing it. Of course Mr Aliffe would know the legitimacy of Stephenson's claim to medical qualifications best of all.
Where I think the misunderstanding may have arose is in Aliffe's research into Stephenson working as a battle-field medic for Garibaldi in 1860. And, as you say in the claims of RDS to Cremers in the O'Donnell manuscript of having possessed medical qualifications.
So we all know that Stephenson was at least competent in bragging and an artful dodger when it served his purposes but what are we to make of Inspector Roots Scotland Yard report that states Stephenson was "a doctor of medicine upon degrees of Paris and New York".
As I understand it, wasn't this report the cornerstone of the concept that Stephenson possessed medical knowledge. The Ripper may or may not have had medical knowledge but certainly some experience with a knife. Especially after the Whitechapel murders.
Fascinating fellow this Stephenson and I for one have certainly learnt much through him and his antics.
Spiro |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1129
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 7:47 pm: |
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Spiro:
"..but what are we to make of Inspector Roots Scotland Yard report that states Stephenson was "a doctor of medicine upon degrees of Paris and New York"..."
Spiro, when Roots and Stephenson first met, Roots would have been either in his late teens or early twenties.
Roots says he knew RDS "for twenty years".
Lets take that literally for a moment.
This means Roots met RDS for the first time in 1868.
Roots was born in 1849. he would have been exactly 19. Stephenson was born in 1841 and would have been 27. This first encounter therefore occurred during a rough year for RDS, as 1868 sees him being released from The Customs House.
Roots may have been told by RDS that he garnered a diploma at that time. For sure,he was told this,post-1868, if not in 1868.
This means that Stephenson spent 5 years at Customs House and then went off to attain this degree. He would have been in his early thirties if that occurred.
Lets say he did go out and obtain a degree from 1869-1873. He doesn't show up in school records [ yet, to keep the record straight ]. He doesn't work as a doctor or practice medicine.
In 1876, he marries, in the mindset of 1876 to be certain, downward,by marrying his Mom's servant.
Two years later,is he practicing medicine? Nope. He's off to India.
Seldom does someone go through the rigors of study simply to squander it as RDS would have done, had he obtained a degree.
Of course, RDS did not have to go immediately into medical practice for "our sake" and by our own standards and expectations.
But he never did,Spiro.
Roots was told a self-embellishing story by a man with a good imagination and an ability to persuade. A young Roots may have been impressionable enough to believe RDS and why not ? There was no reason not to believe him.
We have the advantage of examining his life,whereas Roots was simply giving a brief outline of his past,based on the "facts" he had been fed by RDS...
I was going to contact you Spiro and let you know about what Andy said to me,but got backed up with work. Your letter with that article is on its way.
By the way, Andy praised the work of the people working on RDS at this site....and on these threads. Thats a compliment that is most encouraging. Lots more work to be done for sure...and its getting done correctly.
How |
Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 2327
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 9:29 am: |
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Nice work, How.
I do see the ripper as a self-embellisher, deceiving others, and perhaps himself along the way, about his accomplishments.
It seems Jack was good at one thing in life - being a serial killer - because he failed at other pursuits.
Love,
Caz
X |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1134
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 6:17 pm: |
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Dear Caz:
Thats a possibility for sure,sweets...if RDS does fit the bill. Thanks very much for your part in finalizing this matter. It was the most important part of uncovering this misconception.
Hugs
How |
Spiro
Sergeant
Username: Auspirograph
Post Number: 25
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 9:09 am: |
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Caz, How,
Good points and I agree. That's certainly why the Ripper was never caught then and since. He was far too cunning for the combined intellects of the Victorian police and seasoned Ripperologists.
Within that vacuum we have RDS sprouting tall tales of wonder and claims of medical diplomas, not degrees, to a Scotland Yard Inspector and on his application for the Secretaryship of the Metropolitan and City Police Orphanage in July 1886.
In late December 1888 Inspector Roots was around 39 years of age. Hardly a spring chicken yet he, and his superiors, dismissed RDS's claims along with his attempts and George Marsh to cash in on the reward for framing Dr Morgan Davies.
Curious and clever as they come no doubt but cockney cunning a Ripper don't make. RDS is starting to sound more like a Victorian oddity, fascinating and educational, but I'm tending to side with the contemporary police view on him which continues to be corroborated by our recent research and, as has been mentioned, has attracted the high praise of Mr Andy Aliffe.
Thank you
Spiro |
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