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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 591
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 17, 2005 - 5:51 pm: | 
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Inspector Roots first of two visitors on or around Christmas at Scotland Yard in 1888,would be the unemployed ironmongery salesman,George Marsh, of Camden Town.
Marsh repeated the story from fellow elbow bender,Robert Stephenson, at the Prince Albert Public House on Upper St.Martins Lane, that he had been told two-three times per week more than likely starting around the time RDS left London Hospital on Dec. 7th,1888.
Without getting into a drawn out discussion of what Mr. Marsh was told*,lets examine two things that occurred in particular....
One is that Stephenson described the murders to Marsh in such a way,that something that he did, or said while drinking and being a bit tipsy,possibly due to being detoxified after spending 139 days in London Hospital [ you folks that drink,know what happens even to us,if we hop on the wagon for a month and then have a beer. The effect is as if it was our very first beer at times,and to others,at least a bit of a jolt to a detoxified system.] caused Marsh to really believe that Stephenson knew more than what the average East Ender would sit and talk about over ales.
The other has a connection with Roots,on the meeting RDS had with him two days later.
During one of the meetings that RDS had with Marsh, Marsh recalls seeing some letters that were in RDS' possession. One in particular is important. Its the letter that Marsh recites as coming from W.T.Stead and it says that Stead refused Stephenson's requests for money to track down the killer.
Roots goes even further,having seen it himself. He gives it a date, November 30th, and corroborates Marsh's statement on this matter.
This brings up the question of whether or not,as some claim and quite possibly so,that Stephenson was "playing a game" with Marsh...OR...
Did Stephenson realize,after this night of drinking,that perhaps he had been a little too believeable for his own good ?
Any thoughts?
*By the way,a very good description of one possible scenario was written by Mr. David Knott.
That story can be found over at The JTR Forums and is well worth the time to peruse.
It can be located at www.jtrforums.co.uk
HowBrown
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Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1267
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 9:12 pm: |
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Out of curiosity....
Has any serial killer in history....ever...gone out of his way to incriminate himself in the way we have been led to believe Stephenson did with George Marsh?
Has any serial killer ever revealed details or facts to a total stranger as we have been led to believe RDS did with Marsh and not been taken seriously enough to go and investigate? The police didn't in this case.
Has anyone considered that Stephenson made up this story because he may have wanted to use it for a potential Pall Mall Gazette article?
Is this where the side remark made by Stead [ that RDS was a remarkable man and that he felt he was the Ripper for a year...] in 1896 emanated from ? That Stephenson wanted to be looked into and then possibly had second thoughts after thinking about what he had said to Marsh?
Your thoughts........... |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1030
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 24, 2005 - 9:37 pm: |
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Hi Howard,
I can only think of one contemporary serial killer (contemporary to Jack the Ripper, be he D'Onston, Tumblety, Bury, or whoever) who did the same stupid thing of revealing too much knowledge to another person. It was the man who many thought confessed on the scaffold to being Jack - Dr. Thomas Neill Cream. One of the reasons Cream got caught was his dispensing of information by blackmail letters, extortionately priced information letters, and casual conversations with undercover detectives of information regarding the poisoning of his four victims in 1891 and 1892. In fact, Dr. (later Sir) William Broadbent found himself involved in the prosecution and conviction of Cream at the trial when an extortion charge against the latter concerning the former was attached to the four homicides. The reason was that in his blackmail note to Broadbent, Cream included mentioning the poisoning of Mathilda Clover in early November 1892. The problem was that Mathilda's death was publicly recorded (at that time) as due to extreme alcoholism). Therefore, anyone who mentioned that Mathilda had been poisoned showed some knowledge of the act. It did not help Cream.
Best wishes (and Happy Holidays),
Jeff |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1268
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 7:06 am: |
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J.B.
Thanks very much for the reminder. Of course,Cream's situation should have come to mind. Your recent story in Ripper Notes, July 2005,page 51,says as much. I only read that over again last week [ ! ] in culling questions for the Trivia Contest we have on Tuesdays...Such a klutz I am.
So Cream is one example of a self-incriminating serial killer [ this guy was on a mission,huh? Ten years in Joliet and he comes out, hits the ground running,and is back at it again !?!...].
Maybe the reason that Cream was investigted further after his blabbing off to undercover cops was that in his case, he relayed information that no one else would have had knowledge or access to....while in the case of the RDS/Marsh chit chats, RDS didn't tell Marsh anything that anyone else wouldn't know,from a casual glance at a newspaper or from the local buzz.
In the case of Marsh, maybe it had to do with some unusually high interest in the case being displayed by Sudden Death and not so much new,pertinent,and undisclosed information.
Happy Holidays J.B.
(Message edited by howard on December 25, 2005) |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1031
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 1:04 pm: |
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Hi Howard,
As a matter of fact you probably hit it. D'Onston strikes me as a smarter guy than Cream, and if he decided to talk about Whitechapel he'd make certain to limit his comments to statements that would not be self-incriminatory. But we were not there with Marsh, so we don't know how much emphasis D'Onston used in describing his ideas, or whether there was some intense gleam in his eyes.
You know that body language or vocal inflection can change any comment we hear. Steve Allan once demonstrated this in a sketch using the phrase "Oh yeah!". He got about a dozen different effects from using those two words.
As for why Cream, having gotten out of Joliet ahead of schedule, turned around and resumed his murderous ways, the usual reason given is sadism or insanity. I am inclined to think he dreamed up an unrealistic (but nearly successful) blackmail scheme, claiming celebrities were poisoners. I wrote about years ago in THE CRIMINALOGIST, but the article never attracted attention.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 492
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 2:16 pm: |
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Another possiblity is Jack Arnold Wilson in the Black Dahlia murder case. I say 'possibly' because Wilson was never convicted. But, many years following the crimes, he met author John Gilmore repeatedly, in a bar, and proceeded to tell him details about the crime. Only, he did so in the third person, by referring to an associate of his who was a female impersonator. Supposedly, the impersonator was the killer. Of course, this person didn't exist. The details he gave were far too indepth and detailed, particularly for someone of Wilson's intelligence. He also showed Gilmore photos and personal belongings of Elizabeth Short (the Dahlia). Wilson, some have suggested, may also have been involved in the Cleveland Torso killings, but that's a little more speculative.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1271
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 4:32 pm: |
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Tommy:
Hey buddy,that still counts as a self-incriminator ! Thank you.
J.B.
How we say something is more important than what we say most of the time. You hit in on the head...and somehow remember the "Oh Yeah?" skit from Allen. Are we old or what?
Tommy, as usual, reminded me of something else I've been chewing on mentally lately. That being the Melvin Foster character....the cab driver who was under extreme scrutinization during the Green River Killer skein back in the early-mid 1980's. I mentioned this to Tom in chat one day last week.
Foster reminds me of Stephenson in a few ways. First he gets himself involved with a case that could have had serious ramifications to his future,beyond the case or its solution.
He sends letters to the police...cruises the area where some of the early victims were picked up by Ridgeway...offers to help the police....offers to "help" the working girls....tells the police he knew some of them...and in addition, in my opinion from watching a recent documentary on Dave Reichert,the cop who hunted Ridgeway, basked in the limelight of being a suspect. Even with around the clock surveillence and with microphones thrust in his face,Foster put on a bold front despite the possibility of a backlash for his "nosiness".
I was left with the impression from Foster's behavior that his self-intrusion into the case was based on a need for recognition. Thats a documentary well worth watching,folks.....
Like Stephenson,who upon his discharge from London Hospital stayed in town...so too did Foster. He's still there today telling anyone who will listen that he could have done a better job than the police. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2736
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 6:21 pm: |
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Hi Howard,
On the other hand it is very common indeed for mentally unstable people to arrive at police stations claiming "insider knowledge"or even to be the killer etc. If the police inquired and found out this "gentleman"was suffering from neurasthenia-the cause of a deterioration in mental equanimity in itself-then it wouldnt be all that surprising if the police gave each other a wink on hearing of his "claims"!
Natalie
Happy Holidays! |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1274
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 7:13 pm: |
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Hey Nats !
You're undoubtedly correct about:
"On the other hand it is very common indeed for mentally unstable people to arrive at police stations claiming "insider knowledge"or even to be the killer etc.."
But in the case of Tom's Jack Wilson,J.B.'s Cream and Stephenson, these men weren't unstable in the conventional sense.
I should have prefaced the matter with the acknowledgement of "the usual confessors" being eliminated.
Anyway....if the police DID go around and query Stephenson,which I seriously doubt that they did [ He went to them,don't forget,two days after Marsh went to Roots at Scotland Yard...], he was already released as "relieve" on the London Hospital charts...
...and I'll bet they did give each other a wink after BOTH Marsh and Sudden Death came to see them.
Its funny that after this chat with Roots, Stephenson never again attempts to plant himself in the midst of the investigation. Thats why I believe [ cannot prove ] that when RDS did go to Roots, there were other things that occurred that eliminated him from BEING a suspect in the contemporaneous sense..
Thats why I argue...[ but nicely,because I respect Tom's opinion ]...that Stephenson was NEVER a contemporary suspect.
He wasn't [ and I am glad you posted what you did,Nats..] one of those "usual confessor" types.
If he was legit,I think the police would have made a trip to London Hospital to check with the authorities there about him. This reference which Tom wrote about a few months ago in the Rip [ the December 30th,1888 clipping ] is confusing because while some Ripperologists think it refers to him...there are some contentious issues since RDS did not leave unannounced and stayed in Greater London...
Happy Holidays to you Nats ! |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2739
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 7:45 pm: |
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Hiya Howard!
He is a fascinating subject is Stephenson,I must admit.His interest in the Black Arts and all that.
But he seems to have managed to get by in life and
for a relatively long life at that despite all the eccentricity!
To me the ripper has always come across as mentally much more fragile and on the verge of total mental disintegration------but ofcourse this may be quite wrong.
Nats |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1276
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 7:50 pm: |
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Nats...
I'll tell ya,sweety...you might be right.
Stephenson may have just been the ONLY one of these bored bourgeosie occult people to stick his nose in the WM.
Tell you the truth...I think his writings might have been extricational. He might have been trying to make a buck off his previous serious or side interests in that mumbo jumbo stuff.
But yeah Nats....He sure is interesting. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1034
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 25, 2005 - 11:26 pm: |
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Hi Howard,
It is extremely possible that Sudden Death did see Whitechapel as a money cow to milk, and that he was testing the waters through Mr.Marsh.
But it looks like we are going to need one of the most detailed multi month (even multi year) time-lines to fit all the activities and accusations and suspicions we have of everyone connected in this case.
I agree though that D'Onston is fascinating.
So is Tumblety, Bury, Druitt, Chapman, Deeming, Osrog, Clarence, Stephens - they are all fascinating.
As for recalling Steve Allen's comedy skits - yeah it does date us. Hard to believe. When I was a kid, the Lesney "Models of Yesteryear" series stressed cars from 1907 like the Rolls Royce Silver Ghost. By 1980 they included the 1945 MG. Now they include cars like the Thunderbird and Studebacker from the 1950s (when we were born). I feel like reaching for a cane and lumbago medicine. Yes, definitely dated.
Best wishes,
Jeff (age 51) |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1278
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 9:18 am: |
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J.B.:
"But it looks like we are going to need one of the most detailed multi month (even multi year) time-lines to fit all the activities and accusations and suspicions we have of everyone connected in this case."
Thats one reason I personally enjoyed Ivor's book on RDS. At least he had a chronology of Stephenson's known deeds and locations,whereas in True Face, we have to jump all over the damned place and try to organize a time line. There may be some revisions made to the chronology coming up...by adding in a few dates, by other people.
I'd wager all of us have pulled pranks on someone so convincingly that the poor sap we pulled the trick on believed it to be gospel truth until they were told it was all a joke.
Whether or not this happened with Marsh is anyone's guess. But it seems highly unlikely that the man who was making headlines all over the world [ even Tasmania...read Adam,Antonio's,and Amanda's story in the latest Ripperologist ],would just blab specific details to a man he just met over drinks and the police NOT immediately brace the perpetrator of the comments, considering that a policeman would "make his bones" by being the man who nabbed The Ripper.
I hear tell you have a College reunion next week,Jeff. Is it true that Moses,Abraham and Cleopatra are going to show up?  |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2743
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 10:14 am: |
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Hi Again Howard and Jeff,
I never read Ivor yet but his talk at the Brighton Conference was rivetting!
I was very impressed to tell the truth and must buy that book after Christmas.I still tend to think that Stephenson was the arch conman though
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 493
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 11:55 am: |
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I'm not sure I see D'Onston as being a conman, per se. Tumblety, yet. That's pretty clear. But D'Onston made his money from writing for the newspaper, apparently had some money saved up (such as a trust fund) and didn't appear to peddle false ointments on the street. To suggest he was conning Mabel Collins from the get-go is jumping the gun a bit. We don't know how he felt about her or what kind of connection was there. D'Onston and Tumblety are often compared because they were both tall white men with big moustaches. Other than that, there's not a whole lot in common.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott
P.S. I also don't see much in common with Melvin Foster and D'Onston. Melvin legitimately knew 3 of the early Green River killer victims. He went to the police with this information and, inevitably, became a suspect. Because of the intense focus on him, he understandably because irate with the police, and a long-standing feud formed. I don't know that anything such as this occurred with D'Onston. |
John Savage
Chief Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 547
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 2:13 pm: |
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Hi Tom,
You say that Donston "apparently had some money saved up (such as a trust fund)".
Can I ask what evidence you have for this?
Just interested, as this is one of the things I am currently trying to research about RDS.
Rgds
John |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1279
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 3:12 pm: |
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John:
I'd like to hear where that trust fund emanated from as well. The lack of examination of the financial background of RDS is a serious oversight in the research this fascinating character.
Probably more like payoff money to keep him away from the family.
He could not possibly have made a living out of less than a handful of articles. I believe the "African Magic" article [ in Lucifer ] was something on the order of an internal bulletin...something like the KISS or Grateful Dead fan clubs sends out to its aficinados...The only way he could have made a living from writing would have been under a nom de plume. THAT is an area that few have probed with success to this date. We don't know what sort of articles in what genre he wrote about if this is true. Its very frustrating.
I disagree slightly with Tom about the "conman" tag that is often given to RDS. I see his embellishments [ diploma/degrees...incidents in America...] as the creation of a facade of success on the part of RDS. Thats a con...albeit,a short con.
Nats:
If you do buy the book,be sure to check out the story by our very own and very old Jeff Bloomfield regarding Gurney and Brighton. It,along with the chronology,are plusses for the book. Jeff's story is very good....as usual.
But getting back to Marsh.....
Just imagine if Marsh had gone to someone other than Inspector Roots [ who knew of RDS, for approx. 20 years...] and said what he did?
Is this the reason RDS got off his bum and made a trek down to Scotland Yard to set matters straight? |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2746
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 4:14 pm: |
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Hi How,
Yes-I will indeed check out the work of" our very own, very old, Jeffrey Bloomfield"-hey you !Jeff"s younger than me and by several years so less of the "old" please!But I will definitely track it and read it-and I am sure it will be a first class piece as is always the case Jeff!
Tom,
I reckon Howard is right about the possibility Stephenson was a "conmam".There were a lot of con artists operating in the area of Spiritualism and the occult.They tried to hoodwink the gullible and some got away with it and made a lotta dosh!
Nats |
Spiro
Detective Sergeant
Username: Auspirograph
Post Number: 53
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 6:17 pm: |
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As Marsh described Stephenson to Inspector Roots as a "soaker" and Marsh is known to be an unemployed labourer, I wonder whose turn it was to buy the next round of drinks over discussing rewards for catching Dr Davies.
I too enjoyed Mr Bloomfield's balanced article on Gurney in Mr Edwards' book, but I did also find the book, apart from the obvious enthusiasm for the topic, less than remarkable, poorly researched and edited lacking an index, and fails to credit the 1st December Pall Mall Gazette article for leading to the passionate empiricism of the occult geographical profile of the murder sites. As is well known by now, this article is also highly derivative.
So that Stephenson conned other people in different ways according to whether it was public as in the papers or in private as in his approach to Scotland Yard with information on the sodomy of the victims by Dr Davies. His story to Mabel Collins and Vittoria Cremers is essentially the same as the police reports apart from some details.
As a journalist and someone known to be suffering from serious nervous conditions, I'm sure Stephenson would have appeared curious to anyone hearing his stories and dismissed as his short lived police involvement demonstrates.
Let's face it, he was a nobody, and if the police wanted to get him and revel in the capture, he wasn't too far away and under the guardianship of the London Hospital.
George Marsh was also a nobody revelling in the company of a man who spoke as a somebody that possibly had been but with a meagre allowance to indulge his drinking, accommodation and to not bring disrepute towards the Stephenson business interests of which he surely attempted to sponge from.
Why murder, mutilate and remove separate organs when Stephenson had not the opportunity for all the victims apart from telling his soaker stories to anyone who would listen like Marsh.
It is no coincidence that Marsh went to Roots because he was equally likely told to seek him out. Stephenson had no special knowledge of the crimes apart from what he heard from the papers, Stead, Dr Davies, local gossip and his own unsupported fabrications.
I would agree that Stephenson was a con artist and he may well be still conning us today. It doesn't take a criminal, in my view, to know a criminal. Just some common sense and obviously George Marsh had none. |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1282
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 8:36 pm: |
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Spiro:
The point about Marsh going to Roots on the advisement of RDS is probably what happened. I was merely theorizing what would have happened had no direction from RDS been given.
I like that remark.. " It doesn't take a criminal, in my view, to know a criminal...
Other than RDS making the later claim to Cremers that only 5 victims were killed, he didn't have any other insights to share that weren't already in print...as far as I can see.....other than what made Collins afraid of him, according to Cremers. |
c.d.
Inspector
Username: Cd
Post Number: 154
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 9:24 pm: |
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Hi Howard,
We have to find out about those Eddowes mortuary drawings found in the pipe in the hospital. I don't know if it was the same hospital that RDS stayed in but it would sure be one heck of a coincidence if it was. Can you think of how we can track the source of that story down? Can anyone one shed light on this?
P.S. Hope your Christmas was a good one.
c.d. |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1287
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 26, 2005 - 11:11 pm: |
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Hey C.D.
Christmas was cool...except one of my grandsons got food poisoning after his Mom fed him some chicken from another locale . They hadda take him to the hospital later . He'll probably come home with a nurse's phone number. He thinks like me.
I still don't know what you are referring to about this pipe. Do me a favor and explain it once again here,so we might be able to check it out.
Hope your Christmas was a good one... |
Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 494
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 12:15 am: |
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C.D. The drawings done by Dr. Brown and Frederick Foster of Eddowes and Mitre Square (prepared for the inquest, if I'm not mistaken) were discovered in the London Hospital archives in the 1960's and first published by Francis Camps in a book. There's no connection there to D'Onston at all.
John and Howard,
I say D'Onston had money saved because I doubt he made much from his articles and he wasn't otherwise employed. I believe he only started writing for newspapers and 'scientific journals' in 1884.
Spiro,
Your posts are hard to follow. Is that intentional?
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1288
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 5:48 am: |
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Tom;
Money saved from what and where is the question.
His last known gig was in 1868 [ other than some possible anonymous writing ]and unless he got his drinks for free back then, there is a good chance he didn't have enough to live on for over two decades,until he met Collins in late 1889 or 1890. |
Spiro
Detective Sergeant
Username: Auspirograph
Post Number: 54
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 5:58 am: |
|
Hi Tom,
I hope the holiday season is a good one for you.
In answer to your question, naturally as a writer I would prefer my words to be comprehendible to you, the reader. What part don't you understand?
As for being intentionally hard to follow, I believe that in discussing Stephenson, a suspect with limited appeal, one assumes a certain amount of background information of readers and if it's not there, you sort of fill in the pieces as you go for the benefit of other readers to this thread. But I take your well-meant post as intended and on reading some parts back, they could have been expressed more clearly.
The other point for me is that in discussing aspects of Stephenson, in this case Marsh's account, some readers will take the challenging of issues in a highly emotive way and I promised Stephen I would try to keep things impersonal on that score. So I may be using more rational language than I otherwise would.
I truly have no agenda here Tom, simply a sincere desire to discuss with others a suspect who interests me hopefully in a spirit of mutual respect. I do not believe anyone has a patent on any suspect, only in the research that they care to undertake and I guess, in the case of this particular suspect, there is hardly any room to get things wrong thus leading to more error than has been witnessed in my opinion.
Of course as a valued poster here, it is inevitable that I would express myself in a unique Australian idiom and you may well imagine how some of the turns of phrase here, whether US, UK or the dark side of the moon, are equally as incomprehensible to me as they are to you.
Cheers buddy
Spiro |
c.d.
Inspector
Username: Cd
Post Number: 156
Registered: 9-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 9:43 am: |
|
Tom Wescott and Howard,
Tom, thanks for the information on the drawings. You stated that they were found in the hospital archives. For the life of me, I can't remember where I read this, but I was under the impression that they were found hidden in some pipe when they did a renovation of the hospital which of course makes it much more sinister. I will have to accept your explantion unless somebody has a different story.
c.d. |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1731
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 10:51 am: |
|
Hi All
The Eddowes/Mitre Square drawings were found in the basement of London Hospital as discussed by Dr. Francis E. Camps in an article in the London Hospital Gazette London Hospital Gazette Clinical and Scientific Supplement vol LXIX no 1 1966, as reported in the Daily Telegraph of 16 April 1966:
"Discussing one of the Ripper's victims, Catherine Eddowes, Prof. Camps says in his article: 'A description of the woman has appeared in many books, but thanks to the detective work of my assistant, Sam Hardy, who discovered, in the basement of the London Hospital, not only the plan which you have seen [endorsed by the coroner] but some remarkable pencil sketches made by the doctor at the scene, we now have an accurate record of their exact nature and the position of surrounding objects.'"
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
http://christophertgeorge.blogspot.com/
|
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1038
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 27, 2005 - 10:04 pm: |
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Hi All,
Thanks Natalie - I feel a little better now.
A con-man, if he is good, finds his marks quickly - people who are gullible because they want to believe whatever bilge the con-man offers.
Look at the special world that D'Onston is circulating in. He cultivates Stead, a giant in newspaper management and circulation drives on social issues, but pathetically into spiritualism. He cultivates Cremer, also gullible. The one that most intrigues me is Crowley - no mean slouch there. Alistaire would have been more than a match for D'Onston, but he seems to have accepted him. But I wonder if he fully believed him.
Also, when we see him cultivating Marsh, we may be really looking at the type that was D'Onston's meat and potatos. I wrote in an article about Cream that we know of three celebrities of the day that he tried to blackmail with his murder scheme: Frederick Smith (the son of a prominent parliamentarian, who was once Disraeli's First Lord of the Admiralty), Countess Russell (a really odd case there - he may have actually been trying to sell her information to use in a divorce suit against her husband, Earl Russell), and Dr. William Broadbent (a prominent physician who subsequently became a Royal physician). He also wrote threatening letters to the father of a medical student whom he developed a dislike about. My point was that these were the cases that the police learned of. We don't know of the cases that Cream developed that "worked" - where his blackmail threats paid off! Similarly I am sure that people who were as gullible as Marsh may have paid D'Onston for his knowledge of the occult or his "powers".
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1290
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 6:06 am: |
|
J.B.
Good points about the gullibility factor.
In the case of Crowley,are we sure that these two ever actually met? Crowley was 13 or 14 [ off the top of the head here ] at the time of the WM...?
In Crowley's case,we may have a situation where someone used Stephenson to embellish themselves in later years.
In my opinion,Stead didn't really believe that RDS was " the veritable JTR",period. I think Stead may have simply taken the interest RDS had in the case...the background of RDS being associated with Lytton...and made a simple statement with tongue in cheek about the man. Certainly,Stephenson had skills [ Stead wasn't wrong there ], but for Stead to believe in RDS being anything other than RDS,as Marsh may well have,as Cremers might have,and Collins according to Cremers might have been, is hard to fathom for such a "socially conscious" person and yet use his writings in the same year [ 1889 ]and associate with him. What do you think ?
Cremers offered up the lame reason of being a "true Theosophist" as the basis for her silence on the ties...the fear Collins had...etc. She believed that the Ripper would get his just rewards in the next reincarnation or life..
With Collins,its hard to pinpoint why she felt as afraid as she is alleged to have been. Why she didn't do anything is anyone's guess.
You know Jeff...its hard to say whether RDS's meat and potatoes were the working class [ no deference meant ] types like Marsh, who wasn't as "hip" to the ins and outs of the whacky world of occultism as those wealthy persons were. This latter group of people appeared to be more inclined to go along with fantasy stories like the Sube saga and the guy who turns into a snake than say a barfly or "uninitiated" working schlub. After all,if there was a group of people that RDS sponged off of,it would undoubtedly be from those who had money to spare....as long as RDS kept those stories coming. Just a thought.... |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 1040
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 8:38 pm: |
|
Hi Howard,
But Sudden Death could have used types like Marsh to test the waters. What if he knew a wealthier person who was similar in personality to Marsh, and realized that that person could react to the same bilge that Marsh accepted in the same way. It's a relatively harmless way of "trying out material" (sort of like a comedian testing out his jokes on the road).
I still think more information about D'Onston's sources of income are required. If we knew who frequently gave him money in the form of gifts (like Dunglass Home got his income in the form of gifts of jewelry). It probably has more to do with his love of occult powers than we can think.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1293
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 28, 2005 - 9:40 pm: |
|
Oh yeah,Jeff...For sure,he might have been using Marsh...Of that there's no doubt.
What I meant was,was that RDS probably honed his skills at embellishment with those wealthy people. He appears to be more in their company than with working class types....so far.
"I still think more information about D'Onston's sources of income are required." J.B.
Truer words ne'er spoken. |
|
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