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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 480
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 10:47 pm: | 
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If my favorite and maybe the best, D'onstonian proponent at this time,Tom Wescott,can't find one for him....lets examine why from another point of view.
It flies in the face of reason that had RDS been fully intent of inculcating a reign of terror over the region that Fall,that he would have not simply gone to that alleged bolthole,without all the unnecessary effort of signing into the London Hospital and then sneaking/walking/traipsing out at odd hours of the night,to deposit the organs at said bolthole and then....go back to the Hospital as if nothing could possibly go wrong.
And then...to top it off...go and get a new apartment in early December. Again,the financial status of the Man In Worn Clothes comes into play...
I don't personally believe that RDS had a bolthole or apartment during his definitely ascertained stay at London Hospital. The ominous overtones of him doing so,only make him more attractive as a suspect,yet less plausible as one.
My thinking on this matter is somewhat different in that there is an alternative to the inevitable "resting place" for these organs, in the Chapman and Eddowes murders.
Your thoughts,please....
HowBrown
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Caroline Anne Morris
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Caz
Post Number: 1799
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 6:04 am: |
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Hi How,
What do you think RDS would have harvested the organs for? Where would he have stashed these trophies?
Love,
Caz
X |
Scott Nelson
Detective Sergeant
Username: Snelson
Post Number: 126
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 3:36 pm: |
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Why is it called a "bolthole" anyway? It sounds like the orifice in Frankenstein's neck that holds his head to his shoulders.
Why not call it a "hide-out" or "hide-away" instead? |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 579
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 4:54 pm: |
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Scott,
It is called a bolthole (more properly bolt-hole) because that is the refuge to which an animal (and by extension person) flees or bolts when it is frightened. While a bit obscure its usage here is probably proper since it not only is chiefly British, but came into the language in the latter half of the 19th Century.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 481
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 5:49 pm: |
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You know these Brits,Scott...dese guys ruined da language.
Caz......I've been thinking about the bolthole for a while. Like the alleged arrests, which may yet be found,who knows, this bolthole or dwelling has been on my mind.
What we seriously need to do is find out the exact date that RDS left for London or some other location following the death/possible murder/suicide of Edward Gurney, a prospective member of the Society for Psychical Research found in his room on the 23rd of June, 1888.
However,I've seen a story by Jeff Bloomfield that may contain a typographical error and then...maybe not.
The story states that RDS left the Albion Hotel for London Hospital, London, or again,somewhere else than Brighton, at least, the day after the inquest of Gurney was held. This is where some confusion may exist. RDS left in late July and definitely registered at London Hospital on July 26th. Thats a fact for sure.
This would mean that the coroner held Gurney's body for a month before holding the inquest, as Gurney died on either the 22nd or 23rd of June of that year. Its not impossible I guess,but perhaps it was a typo in the final analysis. If Jeff sees this,perhaps he can clarify this matter.
In any event Caz...I'm one of those who believe that this 134 day stay at the L.H. for a sissified condition [ neurasthenia ] was an excuse get things in place for the upcoming Fall..
....and at what better place to find jars,with lids, for preserving organs, than a hospital,my sweet? They collected them and had them at the London Hospital....as Tom Wescott so described in an issue of Ripper Notes, a few months back.
I don't see any problems sneaking jars out of a hospital the size of L.H....I've sneaked in bottles of tequila to a maternity ward to celebrate a friend's wife's birth. I was on a mission....and so too,I think, was our boy RDS.
As to the use of the organs? To make the garish candles that Cremers braced him about for a few years later.
Getting these jars back in may not have been even contemplated. It would have been far too risky to do such a thing,imho....The jars would be ideal,as the uterus[ Chapman ] and kidney [ Eddowes ] could be compressed to fit and would retard the natural degeneration of these two organs as well as the smell,which after Sept. 30th until Dec.7th, would have been stinking to high heaven if not decayed to the point of unusability. Finding a nook or cranny in the East End would probably be no harder than in any other area with factories,delapitated homes,or accessible "stash" spots. Thats what I think happened,sweets.
The reason for my personal belief that he didn't have a spare apartment,all the while staying at the L.H. is...as soon as RDS splits from the Hospital,we find [ actually Chris Scott found it..] him moving to St.Martin's.
It is at St.Martins,I personally feel and obviously cannot prove, that the melting of the organs into candles took place. Making candles in an effort to ...well..that comes later Caz. You'll have to wait just a bit. A lot of people can get caught up in the suggestion that RDS HAD to use these organs a.s.a.p. Not at all...This is a guy who lived essentially by and from the hand of others....so he was used to waiting for things and had the necessary patience to wait almsot 10 weeks after the Eddowes murder until moving into St.Martins....He [ the way I see him ] is not a guy who requires instant gratification and just "had to" get busy with the organs. I think he was a very unimpulsive man...and possible killer.
But where this guy got his money is my prime focus at the moment. The way John,Nina,and the gang are finding things out,it may not be too long before we all know where the hell he got his moolah !!!!
Thanks for asking..
How
HowBrown
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Thomas C. Wescott
Inspector
Username: Tom_wescott
Post Number: 367
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 8:30 pm: |
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Um, I actually have a pretty darn good suggestion for the location of D'Onston's bolthole. What I'm having trouble finding is a good word to replace 'bolthole', which sounds kinda lame.
Yours truly,
Tom Wescott |
Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 580
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 9:55 pm: |
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Tom,
What is wrong with expanding your vocabulary a bit? Besides, if D'Onston had need of a bolt-hole (about as big an IF in Ripperology -- I know I'm for it now, committing heresy on this thread) that is quite likely the word he would have used.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 487
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 10:14 pm: |
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Don...
No one will hassle you,buddy ! I've got your back.
I agree that he didn't need a bolthole,nor had a bolthole,or even considered a bolthole.
This guy bounces around from Brighton to London Hospital [ who paid for the 134 days there? Yet another unapproached fact about RDS...]...wears beat looking suits...eats little...yet drinks much...and has money for a bolthole for 134 days,in addition to the Hospital !!!!!! Thats two weeks shy of FIVE MONTHS RENT at a bolthole he had to cough up...
Because if he lived with some friend in the District,which is the only other alternative to this concept of RDS having a "side apartment", what would have been running through the mind of the friend had RDS went from Hospital to said friends house in the manner the "Bolthole Theory" operates? In and out at night on at least 4 occasions and as many as {fill in the blank}...just hard to fathom...and too risky for RDS-as-Ripper.
Don,you are slightly off about the biggest "IF" in Ripperology. The biggest one may yet be around the corner.
Fire away boys !
HowBrown
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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 581
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 10:41 pm: |
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Howard,
What corner? The one where Wentworth Street turns into Goulston Street? Now that would have been the place to be back on September 30, 1888 -- as the Four Lads sang eons ago "Standing on the corner, watching all the goys go by."
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 492
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 6:44 pm: |
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Oy, such memories you're bringing back,Don !! Why it seems like it was only 117 years ago when we were listening to Rabbi Irv Bris and the Four Tips on that very corner...now that was some good klezmer music.....
Back to the bolthole...
I'll ask Jeff Bloomfield about that date above, as I am sure the correct date would have been the 25th of June...and not July, for the coroner's inquest of Edward Gurney. I think I asked him that a long time ago but cannot remember right now.
If I am correct,then this gives RDS almost a month before going into the Hospital for his bogus ailment [ neurasthenia ]. Plenty of time for him to have procured a spot or obtain an apartment....but did he,is the question...
Does anyone know the address that RDS used at the time of his signing in at London Hospital,offhand?
HowBrown
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 493
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 7:05 pm: |
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No use looking in Harris' book for any reference to the question above, as he does not mention the Gurney incident at all.....
HowBrown
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 676
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 9:42 pm: |
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Hi all,
I looked at my copy of Trevor Hall's THE STRANGE CASE OF EDMUND GURNEY (London: Gerald Duckworth & Co., Ltd., 1964), on page 13. The correct name for Gurney's inquest was JUNE 25, 1888 (a Monday). I apologize for the confusing mistake.
Why not call D'Onston's "bolthole" his "lair"? It has a proper sinister sound to it?
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 497
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 9:57 pm: |
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Thanks Jeff.
I wanted to make that date clear,in case anyone decided to unnecessarily blame Mr. Harris for the error...I think you cleared this up for me last year,Jeff. Your clarification is appreciated.
HowBrown
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Donald Souden
Chief Inspector
Username: Supe
Post Number: 583
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 10:22 pm: |
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Jeff,
Here we go again with many of us sharing a common language that divides us: in some parts of Scotland a "lair" refers to a tomb or grave.
Don.
"He was so bad at foreign languages he needed subtitles to watch Marcel Marceau."
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 498
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 11:01 pm: |
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Possible "boltholes" for RDS...
1. An acquaintance from the past offers a room between London Hospital and Goulston [ assuming that the GSG was his work and heading back toward the Oxford Street address]....and leaves the two organs there...
2. Makes contact with a landlord [ between June 25 and July 25 ] in the East End and rents an apartment...and leaves the organs there
3. Has a special place to leave the ill gotten gain....outdoors perhaps...or at some other place which he uses to simply stash the merch...
4. London Hospital itself.
Since it isn't mentioned, therefore not discussed, in Mr. Harris' book about when he used the organs in whatever fashion, does the idea that I have about the St. Martin's locale make any sense to you ?
Even if you don't necessarily buy the idea about RDS being the Ripper....suspend your belief for a moment....and pretend that you do....and post your feelings as whether this latter idea [ St. Martins, on Church Lane...] sounds more feasible.
I have doubts that RDS would be able to do anything with these organs until after December 7th....
HowBrown
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 680
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 04, 2005 - 10:51 pm: |
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Hi Don,
Well, I (of course) meant "lair" as in "lion's lair". But if D'Onston is the Ripper, and he has a bolthole for the purpose, it can be a "lair" in the other sense, as his attacks on the prostitutes is reminiscent of a vampire's from the grave on his victims. Is there possibly an old, decaying abbey near Whitechapel...say at Whitby?
[Sorry Howard] 
Jeff |
Rosey O'Ryan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, June 05, 2005 - 5:01 am: |
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In those days churches were open 24/7 unlike today. Anyone could enter these sometimes cavernous structures (with their crypts and lairs) and hide an elephant if they wished.It is possible to hide low for a while before moving to another. Just turn your starched collar back-to-front!
Hmm. Was Jack a Jesuit?
Rosey :-) |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 514
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 06, 2005 - 3:02 pm: |
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Jeff...
Thanks for the clarification,my man ! Its appreciated.
Rosey...
Now we're talking...not only churches, but old warehouses had "spots" as they do now here on the East Coast,where things could be stashed away for periods of time.
We're talking about a jar the size of a plastic gallon of water. Not quite elephantine,but one that would require hiding nonetheless. Maybe in one of those huts on the grounds of the Hospital itself...
Rosey...Have you had the chance of checking out the known rituals that are in your book of An Druidh ?
Thanks...
HowBrown
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