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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 468
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 5:50 pm: | 
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As I am definitely one of those people that sees a link between the distances of the first four bodies within the Canonical Five [ at least, if not 100 percent on the 5th...] and also considerate of the position of another theory,that being Mr. Harris's of the profaning of the cross....I have a question that maybe someone could provide an answer for....
In my searching for a link to the positioning of the following murder victims [Stride,Chapman,and Eddowes ] I cannot find substantiative material which details any known ritual that involves the victim being killed and found in the position these women were inevitably found. That being next to a fence or wall.
Now,I am not arguing against the possibility of such a ritual which would find a victim left near a fence,wall,or other standing structure. Far from it.
What I am more inclined to believe,personally,not that it matters, is that there was a reason for these women being found where they were that may be more common sensical.
In the act of,ahem, rear entry sexual contact, the women would have to place their hands on a standing structure,such as the fence on Hanbury, the corner wall in Mitre Square,and on Berner Street. To some,this may be a no-brainer,in that of course,a woman would naturally look for an erect [ I said erect...] edifice to lean on for the sexual act that was to follow...
So,I'll leave this question here for some other person with the answer. Is there.. somewhere,an archaic ritual,which demonstrates or details the victim being laid next to a structure such as we find 3 of the C5 left at ?
Thanks...
HowBrown
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Dan Norder
Chief Inspector
Username: Dannorder
Post Number: 689
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 31, 2005 - 11:32 pm: |
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Howard,
I'm at a loss as to why finding a victim near a "fence, wall, or other standing structure" is at all needing of an explanation. This was the largest metropolitan area in the world at that time. Everyone was always near a fence, wall or other standing structure.
Besides your explanation of looking for a place to put her hands, a prostitute tended not to do the deed in the middle of busy streets or the river Thames. Attempting to go somewhere a little more private would naturally put someone near walls (assuming the lack of readily available farmers' fields, wooded areas and back seats of cars), regardless of which kind of sexual act they'd be doing.
Dan Norder, Editor
Ripper Notes: The International Journal for Ripper Studies
 Profile  Email  Dissertations  Website
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1992
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 5:47 am: |
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Howard,
The thing that strikes me most about the murders of Jack the Ripper is that the one thing he was most certainly not interested in was any kind of sexual behaviour along the lines you describe.IMHO he was either,as Glenn posted recently,someone who got most of his sexual satisfaction from the mutilations/possibly trophy collection side of it Or-- he was even more insane and the entire series of murders was more to do with a madman"s delusional type
thinking-ie that he was being "commanded" to do all this by some outside power.
The last thing the ripper wanted was to engage in any kind of coitus [IMHO]- I tend to think he would probably rather have burned in hell! |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 475
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 6:04 pm: |
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Dear Nats and Dan
Thanks for the input here. I agree with you that sex wasn't on the mind of the Ripper, regardless of the women's profession....
Dan, in case you may have misunderstood what I was driving at here, of course I know that regardless of where the action began, and that the woman would naturally place her hands on an edifice or fence, what I am asking is whether anyone knows of a ritual in whatever silly cult or coterie of kooks, regardless of the above and obvious, which involves the placement of the victim near a fence or edifice ?
Just because it has been posited that there is,doesn't make it so...nor does it negate the possibility if we say there isn't without double checking. There's waaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much being presumed about RDS,without the extra schmaltz...In order to sell a suspect,often people will hype the suspect up so much,that his candidacy is immediately dismissed because of this extra hair that we intend to trim on these here boards.
In order for me or you or the next person to put a New Face on Roslyn Stephenson, I am just trying to make sure all the t's are crossed,and bases touched, before proceeding with future posts on this thread.
So,again,if anyone knows whether some sort of ritual involving the placement of a victim near a wall or fence exists, when possible,please let us know.
Thanks again,Natalie and Dan....
HowBrown
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Restless Spirit
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 59
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 6:40 pm: |
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Howard
One thing that bothers me about Stephenson was his name change. Why Roslyn????? That name to me seems very feminin. Was this a usual practice in that era or was gender just not an issue when it came to names??
Restless Spirit
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 477
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 7:49 pm: |
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Judy...
Stephenson first went under [ in a document and/or in a legal sense ] Roslyn, on February 14, 1876, when he married Anne Deary...
The name,Roslyn, most probably refers to his dedication to necromancy. In Rosicrucian lore, the name refers to "The great whore" or I believe,the scarlet woman.....it also has a link to a five petalled rose....hence, Roslyn
The name may or may not be of a specific gender....that I don't know. David Knott would be the man to ask about that part of the question.
Take care...
HowBrown
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Jane Coram
Inspector
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 438
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 9:43 pm: |
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HI Howie,
Going back to the gate thing, I did notice that gates seemed to feature quite heavily in the crime scenes.
There were a few conclusions I came too, none of them linked to the occult I am afraid.The first is that the gates for the most part led to stable yards, and quite often I think those gates would have been open for a large part of the evening/night, even when they were not being used. This would seem to be an ideal place for the ladies to take gentlemen for sex.
When the gates were not open, then the gates themselves as you pointed out had a great deal more 'give' in them than a brick wall and would be more comfortable, whatever position was used.
I think because of this it is more likely that the ladies took the clients there rather than the other way around. I know that the D'Onston theory is that he led them there, which of course is not out of the question, but I tend to feel that the more logical conclusion is that the ladies themselves chose these sites for practicality rather than anything else.
I was brought up in a back alley which was used by prostitutes and all of them could be found servicing their clients up against the gates, rather than the wall. It was just more comfortable! I have never heard of gates being used in any kind of symbolic form in occult terms.......but I will have a look around and see if I can find anything.
Lots of love
Jane
xxxxx |
Jane Coram
Inspector
Username: Jcoram
Post Number: 439
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 9:45 pm: |
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Sorry, forgot a bit,
I do agree though that the distance between victims is very interesting. I had never realised that it existed before and it is very intriguing.
XXXXXXX |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 479
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 10:27 pm: |
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Toots....
The cartographical [map for you Hungarian extraction..] similarities are not to be underestimated. In particular,the first 4 of the canonical five. This doesn't infer that Tabram or Kelly weren't victims of the same hand,but only in reference to the ones "in between"...
And again,Janie...regardless of whether RDS led them there...or the women did the engineering to the spots they assumed they were going for...thats not the point of the thread,although what you say IS very true in its particular inference.
The crux of what I,along with others,are trying to do,regarding this suspect,is remove the allegations that everything involved with these murders was planned to the nth degree. They couldn't have been,in my opinion.
The Ripper [ and this suspect, in particular,RDS, who if the theory is correct,had to leave the Hospital on his own recognizance and return unhindered,all the while being that facile to have his cake and eat it too...] could not overlook the fact that certain unseen factors could arise. He could "imagine" all he wanted,that the kills would be swift,precise,and his retreat would be as easy as his approach. In the Mitre Square and Berner Street affairs,there are simply too many factors for the Ripper at large to overlook and dismiss in his work,IF some sort of ritualism was behind their manifestation.
But...hey..who knows ? Maybe this guy had the luck of the Irish,as we say over here...maybe his cards were all aces...and his thumb,green.
Hasta luego,mi amor.....
HowBrown
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David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott
Post Number: 98
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 10:47 am: |
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Hi Judy & How,
In Melvin Harris's book, Harris gives the explanation that How mentions regarding the name.
However, in the same book, quoting from the Cremers memoirs, D'Onston's own words were that he 'claimed relationship with the Roslyns'. Neither Mabel Collins nor Cremers knew who the Roslyns were, but I think that we can be pretty sure that they were the St Clair/ Sinclair family, Earls of Rosslyn and founders of the famous Rosslyn Chapel in Roslin near Edinburgh.
I believe that he used the name and claimed the relationship as a result of his dedication to the Jacobite cause. In the same way S L Mathers of the Golden Dawn claimed a relationship with the MacGregors and adopted the name, and Crowley took the forename Aleister.
The Earls of Rosslyn were the hereditary grand masters of Scottish Rites (Jacobite) freemasonry, and had close family links to the Stuarts, so he could hardly have chosen a more appropriate name.
Certainly today it is a name more associated with females. It has a number of different meanings ; Latin = fair and beautiful rose, Welsh = moorland lake; French = small red-haired one.
The celtic version which applies to the Sinclairs means a rocky promontory by a waterfall, although there is an alternative meaning given by Andrew Sinclair which is 'bloodline', which will appeal to Holy Blood Holy Grail fans.
David |
Rosey O'Ryan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 4:52 am: |
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Dear Natalie,
You write of Jack being "commanded". Can you go further into your possible psychological scenario...religious, esoteric, autistic, schizophrenic, etc.? I am interested in your ideas, vis., primary motive/modus vivendi.
Rosey :-) |
Tee@jtrforums
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 01, 2005 - 11:08 pm: |
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IMHO I think it may have something to do with the Knights Templars of Rosslyn Chapel and a Masonic link of some kind.
But I`m open to other suggestions.
Tee.
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David Knott
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dknott
Post Number: 99
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 12:23 pm: |
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Tee,
There are stories that the original Templars excavated under Temple Mount in Jerusalem and that whatever they found painted a very different picture of early Christianity, which is why they were eventually persecuted by the Church as heretics. However, some scholars believe that the scrolls etc that they found now reside in vaults under Rosslyn Chapel. Scottish Rites masonry, and other occult groups, like to claim a descendancy from the Templars.
From a Ripper perspective, it is interesting that the next person to lead excavations under Temple Mount was Charles Warren on behalf of Queen Victoria.
David |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 482
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 5:59 pm: |
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Thanks for the input,Tee and Dave. Much appreciated.
This goes to show that even the reason for using the name Roslyn could have multiple solutions. THATS why its important to hear from everyone on this matter. I remember David's excellent thread from the past on the Jacobite link to RDS,but could not access them to mention it on the previous post I made. No matter....Dave did it. Thanks very much !
HowBrown
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Restless Spirit
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 61
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 7:30 pm: |
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David Knott, Howie, Tee
Thanks for the imput with respect to Stephenson's choice of Roslyn for his name. Very interesting comments and translations.
It gives new meaning to the term so
"What's in a Name"?
regards
Restless Spirit
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 485
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 8:18 pm: |
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Okay....back to the original question asked at the beginning...
Is there a known ritual which involves the placement of a victim in the ways that Chapman,Stride,and Eddowes were found [ laying on the side in the dark next to an edifice ] and Nichols, found next to an entrance of a stable, were ? Or was it a matter of the Ripper simply killing them where they stood and that the positions weren't part of any extraneous plan.
If you have an answer,please post it here. Thanks.
HowBrown
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Tee@jtrforums
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, June 02, 2005 - 4:04 pm: |
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Sorry for the delay but as you can see I have to wait two days before my post even hit the board, so if I knew you was going to post that David I wouldn`t of. Very interesting indeed I agree.
All the best.
Tee. |
Rosey O'Ryan
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 9:57 am: |
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Dear Mr Brown,
I have no answer! But I do have a question (one that has on occasion been asked before on the Casebook,(re, Ritualistic Killers).
What do you (and others of a similar persuasion) mean by the term "RITUAL/RITUALISTIC"? We here it repeated ad nuaseum by those who address us as 'profilers'. I suspect they need an intensive course in anthropology/archeology...or something.
As for a specific RITUAL in the vicinity of wooden posts and stone walls, my Encyclopedia of Ritual Praxis,1862, by A.N.Druidh, lists thousands. Where to begin? And there's the rub! Unfortunately, with modern speculation on Jack's so-called ritualism or praxis, we quickly move into the area of artful enterprise, ie., we seem to have 'lost' the precise understanding/meaning of this praxis we refer to as "RITUAL".
RITUAL implies space and time with deep cognitive associations that have meaning to a collective.
On the other hand, personal, idiosyncratic, behaviour is nowadays given the confusing term 'ritualistic'...schizophrenic, autistism, and so on. My views are influenced by Panganus, of course...WHITHER? WHENCE?
As Ever,
Rosey :-)) |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 489
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 2:33 pm: |
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Rosey...influenced by Pang Anus ? You mean the Chinese cat who could divine the future by looking inside those little crescent shaped cookies with the tiny typewritten messages ? Yeah..oh yeah...I remember that guy. He and I went to different schools together.
The book you mention is unfamiliar to me, although the name An Druidh means "the druid circle". If you have a chance, take a gander in the book and peruse ever so slowly through it and see if there is mention of a sacrificial ritual,involving the mutilation of women,in order to extricate ones self of a malady that could not be healed by conventional [ i.e. Western ] medicine and of course, specifically mentions the placation of the victims body laid out by an edifice of wood or stone. When I,since I can't speak for anyone else,think ritual, I mean it in the dark necromantic sense of killing for gain and offering the kill up to the Dude With The Horns..
Thanks for "fixing" my typo on the name TauTriadelta..These damn fraternities all look the same to me.
While you're at it...see if they have a remedy for arthritis in the book. These two housecats I have may have a purpose yet,other than caterwauling in a state of perpetual rut...oy vey,to be so lucky ! Let me know,as I could kill two birds with one stone if the book has the answer.
Meoooooow !
HowBrown
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 491
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 03, 2005 - 3:11 pm: |
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In fact,Rosey...not only look for the specific ritual that I asked for, but any ritual regardless of its purpose,which mentions or specifies edifices and position of victim.
Its either that,or these cats are on the way FED EX next day air to your lair.
HowBrown
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