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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 411
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 1:24 pm: | 
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If any of you live in the Hull area,and for whatever reason are near the "city hall"....Please let me know as I have three records we need to locate......
First: In the category of wills, we would like to know if there are any wills accessible to public view. ANY will that has the name "Stephenson" after it, would be what to look for.
Second: In the category of births, what we are looking for is whether,as was the practice of the time in most cases, or not the birth of any Stephenson was handled at home by a physician. The Stephenson's may not have been wealthy at the time of D'onston's birth but afterwards. Maybe....just maybe...the doctor who delivered RDS noted the birth and was his doctor afterwards up until 1868. Its worth a shot...
Thirdly...police records or arrest records of any Stephenson if available. Maybe RDS has a record from his hometown. It would interesting to see what, if it existed ,it was for....
Anyway...I have sent out feelers to the City of Hull on these and other matters. We all know that many times the requests we make are never followed through with on the other end. Thats why I was asking if anyone lived near that area of England.
Thanks for your time.
How
How Brown
Donston1888@aol.com
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1010
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 1:47 pm: |
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Howard
After 1858 there is a national series of probate calendars covering wills and administrations. These are printed indexes, one per year, and are fairly widely held in record offices within England (and have been microfilmed). So for wills after that date a search could be done elsewhere (in London, for example).
Before 1858 things were a lot more complicated, but any wills before that date are likely to be at the Borthwick Institute in York.
Chris Phillips
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4436
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 2:07 pm: |
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Howard, there were a lot of Stephensons in Hull!
Robert |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 412
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 2:33 pm: |
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Chris........
Thanks my friend...I appreciate this information. I'll check into it. His Mom died in 1891 [found by Nina Thomas ] and the old man died in 1889. The reason I, along with Nina perhaps, am looking for the wills in particular,is that I can't "figure out" how Stephenson survived on the basis of his articles to sustain him, his habits,and travels and am starting to lean toward the idea that he recieved monies from his mother "on the side". A guy who is alleged to have bathed every day and yet is "known" as someone who wore worn clothing....a man who could put together something such as "The Patristic Gospels" and winds up in a workhouse and buried in Islington,evidently so poor he could not afford his own burial place. There is just something wrong that I can't put my finger on about all of this....but being a hardheaded part Hungarian, I have to try to.
Robert Chas...
Thats cool with me and the gang,sir...The more Stephensons the merrier. We've got time. Besides,we are looking for Stephensons from 1806,when the old man was born, to roughly 1891-1900.
I feel it in my bones...this guy had to be living off the family someway.
Thanks for both of your prompt and informative posts....
How
(Message edited by howard on May 22, 2005)
How Brown
Donston1888@aol.com
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 379
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 7:38 pm: |
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Hi Howard,
It just so happens that I live in Hull, about a quarter of a mile from Charles Street, the birth place of Donston.
I will be glad to offer what assistance I can, but details of wills and birth certificates are most likeley to be found in the general registers, copies of which are kept at Hull Central Library. I beleive that Melvin Harris carried out some research at Hull, although I do not have a copy of his book "The Bloody Truth", which I think is the one that detailed his research there. Somewhere in my files I have details of a will taken from the National Probate Calendars which gives details of a Stephenson, engaged in the seed crushing business, I will try to look it out and post it here.
As time permits I will make what enquiries I can, but it would help if I knew to whom you had sent "feelers".
Rgds
John
Donston's birth certificate may not give details of the address were he was born, at home or elsewhere, but with a few details you can obtain one. |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 381
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 7:49 pm: |
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Howard,
The details from the National Probate Calendar were easy to find, they were on my computer.
Hope they are of interest
Rgds
John |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 414
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 8:51 pm: |
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Sir Gory :
Thanks a million for your kind gesture to help out like that. This is terrific.
I sent feelers out to the Hull "chamber of commerce"..a historical society in Hull...and their records dept... I'll put their URL's up in a separate post on another thread I have cookin'...
This William Hugh Stephenson may be D'onston's nephew. D'onston had two brothers named William.
The first, William Henry Stephenson was born on January 15th, 1834. Nina Thomas,who has found most of what has been put up here to date, hasn't been able to get a date of death for William The First....not yet,that is....I put nothing past Nina.
The second William, William Dawber Stephenson,was born on February 13th,1836. Nina has probably guessed correctly that since the 1841 and 1851 censuses don't mention the former,then the latter may be the grandfather of the child whose name appears on the photostat you provided. He also may be a great-Uncle to this Robert Ranby Stephenson. Its fortunate that your copy has the mentioning of "seed crusher" on it. This helps out very much.
Just a quick side comment....I know that British people occasionally name their males "Evelyn" and a couple of other first names that are usually assumed to be female....but this Maurice Jewel Stephenson,apparently the wife of Wm.Hugh...thats not possibly a typo,is it John?
Thanks again so much John !
How Brown
Donston1888@aol.com
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 382
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 9:14 pm: |
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Howard,
Maurice is a male name to the best of my knowledge, so I doubt he was anyones wife!
There does seem to be a penchant in this family of seed crushing Stephensons for unsual middle names.
Robery Donstan,
Robert Ranby,
William Dawber,
Maurice Jewel.
I am sure I don't know how this comes about, but unusual names often make research easier, so let us be thankful. Perhaps if I were to call in to the local studies library they may have some information on this family as seed crushing was, and to an extent still is, an important industry locally.
Rgds
John |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2030
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 1:34 am: |
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I looked up the original index entry for Donston's birth, in case anyone wanted to order a copy of the certificate. The full details are:
1841 Quarter 2 - April to June
Name: Stephenson, Robert Donston
District: Sculcoates
Volume 22
Page 504
However, when I looked at the original index (they were still handwritten then!) the entry above caught my eye. This reads as follows:
Name: Stephenson, Richard Rodford
District Sculcoates
Volume 22
Page 505
If the Stephensons had a penchant for unusual middle names, I presume this is Donston's brother Richard. I knew of Richard Stephenson and had seen him mentioned in various censuses as born circa 1840 but did not realise til this index listing (see below) that he and Donston must have been twins.
Chris
 |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2031
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 1:50 am: |
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How,
This info about William High Stephenson may be of use.
He was born in the 1st Quarter of 1872 in Beverley, Yorkshire. He was the son of William and Harriet Stephenson, his father being a doctor. The family is listed in 1881 as follows:
1 Railway Street, Beverley, Yorkshire
Head: William Stephenson aged 40 born Hull Bridge, Yorkshire - M.R.C.S. Lond., General Practitioner
Wife: Harriet Emma Stephenson aged 38 born St Neot's
Children:
William Hugh aged 9
Ethel aged 7
Olive aged 6
Dorothy aged 4
Maurice Jewel aged 2
All children born in Beverley
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2032
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 2:01 am: |
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By 1901 we learn of William Hugh's occupation:
He is listed as follows:
Waterside Cottage, Ferriby, Yorkshire
Head: William Bell aged 68 born Seaton, Yorks - Cow keeper
Son: James Bell aged 35 born Ferriby - Cow keeper
Daughter: Mary Bell aged 29 born Ferriby
Boarder: William H Stephenson aged 29 born Beverley - Manager of oil mills
He married in 1902 in Sculcoates, his wife's name being Ethel.
William Hugh is listed in 1891 still living with his widowed father and is decribed as a merchant's clerk
(Message edited by Chris on May 23, 2005) |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2033
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 2:39 am: |
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Maurice Jewel Stephenson:
Apart from the mention above in 1881, he is listed in 1891 as a 12 year old pupil at Giggleswick Grammar School. I have been unable to find him in the 1901 census but he must still have been around as he married in Sculcoates in 1909. |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 383
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 4:40 am: |
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Hi Chris,
Some great information there, you had it posted before my local library even opened this morning.
William High Stevenson, thats not a typo is it? Or just another unusual middle name to add to the list. Just to help people understand, the different places you have named, Sculcoates is a parish of Hull, Ferriby is 5 miles distant, Beverley and Hull Bridge about 8 and Seaton about 15miles from Hull. Gigleswick is further away in the West Riding, about 70-80 miles.
Interesting also to know that Donstan was a twin.
Rgds
John |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4438
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 4:43 am: |
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I was hoping to find a Harriet Jewel marrying a William Stephenson. However, in this case the son (Maurice Jewel Stephenson) seems to have been given, not his mother's maiden surname, but his grandad's middle name! His grandad was a surgeon.
1871 St Neots
The surname was transcribed by Ancestry as "Evens." The fourth name down, Sarah Catherine Moor(?), was a lunatic.
Robert |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 416
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 6:01 am: |
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Chris and John...
Quick observation..
Within twelve hours of starting this specific thread,your help has uncovered something[s]new
that we didn't know before...
A twin to RDS ?!!?
I don't have time right now,but by tonight I will have those names and e-mail addresses for you John. I do have them and will place them. Usually requests for material that others have to do the work themselves take a while...but these two were quick.
Chris...These christening dates show that Richard was born before Robert Donston. Nina found them. Could this be in error ?
IGI Christening Dates for children of Richard & Isabella Stephenson:
Elizabeth Ann Stephenson Dec.10,1832
William Henry Stephenson Jan.15,1834
William Dawber Stephenson Feb.13,1836
Isabella Dawber Stephenson Aug.16,1837
Richard Stephenson July 31,1839
Robert Douston Stephenson May16,1841
Is it possible that as with the two Williams,there were two Richards and the twin to RDS died?
How
P.S. Robert Chas.....Thanks very much for that registry entry. All of these gems will be collated and put within one thread one day. Its much appreciated.
(Message edited by howard on May 23, 2005)
How Brown
Donston1888@aol.com
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2034
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 11:00 am: |
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How
Hmmm - that is a mystery. Who is is this Richard Rodford Stephenson? The facts that strike me are:
1) His birth was registered in the same district in the same quarter as Donston.
2) The two entries have consecutive numbers - Vol 22 pages 504 and 505, suggesting they may have been made at the same time.
3) We know that Donstons's family had a penchant for unusual middle names and Rodford certianly fits that
4) Having two sons called Richard would make more sense if the elder one had died, but we know this was not the case.
I cannot explain who this second Richard Stephenson born in 1841 is, but there seem a number of coincidental links to Donston.
I must stress that my statements that this Richard may have been a twin was an assumption based on the above links. The only way to solve this would be to order the birth certificate for Richard R Stephenson and see who his parents are.
Chris
(Message edited by Chris on May 23, 2005) |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2035
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 11:18 am: |
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Hi John
Yes, William High is a typo
Grrrrr
Chris |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4441
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 12:24 pm: |
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Free BMD has this :
Deaths Dec 1840
STEPHENSON Richard Sculcoates
22 337
Deaths Mar 1841
STEPHENSON Richard Sculcoates
22 380
Robert
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1011
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 12:45 pm: |
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If it's a twin, it's very odd that one twin's baptism should be in the IGI and the other's not.
I believe registration rates were relatively low during the early days. Is it possible that this is a late registration of the Richard baptised in 1839?
Chris Phillips
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2036
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 1:05 pm: |
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The twin (if that's what he was may have been)may have died virtually at birth before being baptised.
I think it unlikely that this was registering the birth of the known brother Richard who was born nearly two years earlier. Births had to be registered within a fairly small time period (as they still do) and if for some reason they failed to register Richard in 1839 I find it hard to think why they would bother to do so nearly two years later.
I don't currently have access to 1839 registers but will look as soon as I have
Chris |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4444
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 2:01 pm: |
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Chris, I've just searched from Jan 39 to Mar 40, and can find no Richard Stephenson for Sculcoates.
Robert |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2037
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 4:42 pm: |
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Chris P
I think you are probably right. The most likely and logical explanation is that the registration is a late one for Donston's brother Richard.
Chris |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1012
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 5:18 pm: |
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Chris S
Certainly this kind of thing is fairly common in baptism registers, although if it was a late birth registration I'm a bit surprised that a note wasn't added to the index for the quarter when the birth should have been registered.
Chris Phillips
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 417
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 5:23 pm: |
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I must stress that my statements that this Richard may have been a twin was an assumption based on the above links. The only way to solve this would be to order the birth certificate for Richard R Stephenson---C.S.
Its in the works Chris...
John.....here are those links to the places in Hull...
http://www.york.ac.uk/inst/bihr/
They have a guide for finding probate records mounted on their web pages.
Regards
Mrs Elspeth Bower
Assistant Archivist
Hull City Archives
79, Lowgate
Hull
HU1 1HN
Tel. 01482 615102
Fax. 01482 613051
Borthwick Institute of Historical Research in York.
Gareth Watkins
Genealogist
Family History Unit
Hull History Services
Central Library
Albion Street
Hull HU1 3TF
www.hullcc.gov.uk/genealogy
Telephone 01482 616828
Fax 01482 616827
The Hull City Council
I'm going to check 'em out and still waiting on another.
Nina Thomas found this in regard to the photostat you have kindly placed above.
I found the listings in the 1881 census for the names that John Savage gave for the will of Robert Ranby Stephenson. It doesn’’t seem that any of these are close relatives.
1881 census Railways, Beverly St Martin, Yorkshire Head: William Stephenson - 40 - b. Hull bridge - occupation: general Practitioner MRC, Wife: Harriet, Daughters: Dorothy, Ethel, Olive, Sons: William Hugh age 9, Maurice Jewel age 2 , Servants: 3
1881 census nth bar St. without, Beverly St. Mary, Yorkshire Robert R. Stephenson - 42 - b. Hull Bridge - Occupation: Brewer Malster (employing 8 men), Sister: Susan Stephenson - 36 - b. Hull Bridge, Servants: 3
But as Robert Chas said....there are a lot of Stephensons in Hull.
How Brown
Donston1888@aol.com
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 384
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 9:21 pm: |
|
Howard,
I managed to pop in to the library this morning to do a very quick and brief check on what they had on seedd crushing in Hull, so I hope the following will help.
I have been looking at some material about the history of seed crushing in Hull, in the local studies library and the following information may give a little information on the seed crushing Stephenson’s, who, if my guess is correct were all probably related.
(a) A Richard Stephenson, Church Street, Sculcoates appears in directories from 1848-61. A company named only as Stephenson, Spring Street appears in the 1874 directory only.
(b) John and James Stephenson, Glasshouse Row, Wilmington had the Anlaby Road Mill in 1877, but built a new mill on part of the site of the old glassworks in 1879-80. They were absorbed by BOCM in 1920-21. The mill was closed in 1926 and sold in 1938 to Alliance Feeds.
(c) Adjacent to Union Mill, was a box-press mill, the property of Mr. Richard Stephenson, who had a crows nest built in the top of the mill, upholstered in red plush, where he sat with his telescope searching the mouth of the River Humber for the arrival of his seed ships. Mr. Stephenson transferred the property to Messrs. Pearson & Bailey about 1888-90, and the mill was let on hire. In 1899 it became the property of BOCM
(d) On the River Hull Bank some eight miles from the City of Hull [and about 1-2 miles from Railway Street, Beverley] at Hull Bridge. Mesrs. Robert Stephenson & Son in 1826 established a cake and bone mill. The present occupant. MR. Maurice Stephenson, is of the fourth generation of the founders of the business and it is interesting to note that box presses are still operated in this mill. Crushing was discontinued under war time conditions in 1940. Closed as an Oilmill an 1952 after 126 years and is now a Fertiliser Works under the same name. W.H. Stephenson is the owner of the property in trust.
(a) History of Seed Crushing in Great Britain, Harold W. Brace, Land Books Ltd, London 1960
(b) (c) Seed Crushing (Hull) David F. Dean, May 1945.
(c) Seed Cushing (Hull) David F. Dean 1957.
The notes for b, c, d, are from a typewritten manuscript “History of Seed Crushing”, library ref L. 665.3 (Safe) Local Studies, Hull Central Library.
BOCM is a large company involved in seed crushing, and still exists to this day [I believe] the initials stand for, British Oil and Cake Mills.
Cake being what is left of the seed after the oils have been extracted.
If you wish I can send you scans of the photocopies I made today.
Rgds
John |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 385
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 10:19 pm: |
|
Howard,
Thanks for letting me know the places you have contacted, and please keep me informed of any reply from the City Archives and Gareth Watkins of the Central Library.
The link to Borthwick Insitute was most interesting, as I have not come acorss that one before. However they may not be able to help much for Hull, due to the way local government was organised; let me try to explain, the county of Yorkshire was split into three seperate parts, the east, west and north Ridings. Whilst Hull is technically in the east riding, it has for about the last 700 years been known as the "City and County of Kingston upon Hull", and for a lot of older records was treated in effect as a seperate county. Having quickly looked at the Borthwick Institute web site, it appears that Hull may not be included in their records, although out lying villages are. Confusing is it not?
Regarding Nina Thomas information, she notes a Robert R Stephenson as being at North Bar Without St. Now from memory I recall that Oak House was in North Bar Without [it is actually a street but that is not normally used]. So I think this may be one and the same.
I shall try to check on Oak House just to make sure.
Rgds
John |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1013
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 3:31 am: |
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John
As noted previously, the Borthwick Institute appears to hold wills for the Hull area, but only for the pre-1858 period.
Chris Phillips
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 420
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 6:00 am: |
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John...
Thanks for your offer of sending the photostats to me. If you would,it would be probably to our advantage if you could,at your convienience,place them here.
Nina [ God bless her ! ] has found some more information on the Dawber family [ for those unaware,that's RDS' mother's maiden name ] that will be placed here tonight.
How Brown
Donston1888@aol.com
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auspirograph
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 11:46 am: |
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How, Chris et el,
In the 1881 British Census Roslyn D. Stephenson is listed as being aged 39 and born in 1842. Yet his birth and other records state 1841 as the birthdate.
Although I'm not sure if this has been covered or firmly established, could this explain the situation with Richards birth? Or is this simply an error in the recording of the 1881 census?
Thanks
Spiro
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2039
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 1:52 pm: |
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Hi Spiro
Two things with regard to your post:
1) the age as reported in the census reflects the age on the day the census took place, usually in the first week of April. Donston's birth was registered in the 2nd quarter of 1841, so if his birthday fell after the census date he would have been 39 at the time of the census, his 40th birthday falling later that same year.
2) Age field in the census is notoriouly unreliable and must always be trated with some caution |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 421
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 4:39 pm: |
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.......and this just in from Hull City Councilperson, Dorothy Parker...
[ a letter I sent ]:
Dear Friends....I am interested in whether someone could help me locate some records of a family that emanated from Hull.
The family's name is Stephenson. The father, Richard,died in 1889 and the mother,Isabella,died in 1891...The father owned a seed-crushing mill in Hull. They lived [ back in the 1840's ] on Willow House, 60, Church Street...The mother's maiden name was Dawber. Its said that Robert Stephenson was born on April 20th,1841. Your help is appreciated.
....and the reply....
Dear Mr. Brown:
Your e mail has been forwarded to me by Hull City Council. We are able to search for the births and deaths mentioned in your e mail. So far, we have searched 1841 for the birth of Robert Stephenson but have not located one whose father and mother are Richard and Isabella. We will do a further search for their deaths and let you know if we are able to find them.
Yours sincerely
Dorothy Parker
Superintendent Registrar
Hmmm......
John: Thanks for the file on the seed crushing...much appreciated,sir.
Spiro...thanks for pitching in...good question,because it puzzles me too as to the correct year.
How Brown
Donston1888@aol.com
|
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1014
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 5:05 pm: |
|
Howard
It looks as though Sculcoates was a separate registration district from Hull at that date:
http://www.fhsc.org.uk/genuki/REG/ery.htm
I think that would explain why the Superintendent Registrar for Hull isn't finding the birth registration. (By the way, I think they are going beyond the legal requirements by checking against parents names - normally I think a fee is charged for checking.)
Chris Phillips
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1015
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 5:10 pm: |
|
By the way, this may be a red herring (Sculcoates seems to have been quite populous by this date, and as people have pointed out, Stephenson is unfortunately quite a common name), but the 1834 electoral roll for Sculcoates lists a Stephenson - apparently an absentee landlord:
[Number] 4379
[Name] Stephenson, Robert
[Abode] Beverley Parks
[Qualification] Freehold houses
[Description of property] Grotto Square
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/Misc/CBW/ERYrolls/Sculcoates.html
Chris Phillips
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 386
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 4:50 am: |
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Hi Chris Phillips,
Sculcoates is actually part of Hull, and this gives rise to the registration district being called Sculcoates, also same would apply for any similar references to Drypool, another registration district. I expect the Superintendant Registrar will have taken this into consideration.
Also Beverley Parks is actually in Beverley, about half a mile from Railway Street. [I never heard of Grotto Square]
Rgds
John |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1016
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 5:52 am: |
|
John
According to the GENUKI web page, the registers of the defunct Sculcoates registration district are now partly at the Hull register office and partly at the East Riding register office.
It seems the ones covering Sculcoates itself are indeed at Hull, so the registrar could check these, provided she realises that Howard meant Church Street in Sculcoates (unfortunately there's a Church Street in the centre of Hull too - I presume this is not the one where the Stephensons lived?).
Chris Phillips
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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 432
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 2:41 pm: |
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Chris P
Thats a good question. Maybe she did think I meant Hull and not Sculcoates...I'll get back to her on that. Thanks a lot.
How Brown
Donston1888@aol.com
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 388
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 5:23 am: |
|
Hi Chris,
I am afraid you have me a little confused about their being two Church Streets in Hull, I know of only one, which would have been in the parish of Drypool. it is very close to the River Hull and the area of the seed crushing mills, so I expect that it will be the one in question.
It may be that Richard Stephenson had a mill, a house or both in Church Street.Unfortunately the street is now totally altered since Victorian times, and it would need further research to check.
Rgds
John |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1017
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 6:22 am: |
|
John
I think I'm the one who was confused (though I remain a bit confused).
Apparently the Stephensons lived in "Church Street, Sculcoates" in 1861 (per Chris Scott's information).
The Church Street I could see on the map is the one in the parish of Drypool, and therefore not in the parish of Sculcoates - so I assumed it wasn't the one in the census.
But I hadn't realised that Drypool was included in Sculcoates registration district, so in any case given the address "Church Street", the registrar would presumably have checked the Sculcoates register.
Maybe "Sculcoates" in 1861 was just the name of the registration district, not the name of the parish.
And I see that in one of your earlier messages you refer to Stephenson having been born in Charles Street (in Sculcoates parish!).
We still seem to be left with a puzzle over why the registrar can't find the birth entry. (I still have a suspicion in the back of my mind that it may be Hull has been checked, but not Sculcoates.)
Chris Phillips
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Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1018
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 6:36 am: |
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Incidentally, I'm surprised to see that the Yorkshire BMD project has extremely good coverage of Hull for both births and marriages (though not for deaths).
http://www.yorkshirebmd.org.uk/
It lists these Stephenson births in the West Sculcoates subdistrict in 1841:
STEPHENSON, Mary E, West Sculcoates, Hull, WES/2/126
STEPHENSON, Richard R, West Sculcoates, Hull, WES/2/143
STEPHENSON, Robert D, West Sculcoates, Hull, WES/2/130
I don't know how the process of copying into the national registers worked, but the fact that the reference numbers of Richard and Robert aren't close to each other in the local register may suggest they weren't related after all.
Howard - presumably these are the reference numbers the superintendent registrar in Hull would need - she may be willing to check whether Richard is a brother of Robert?
Chris Phillips
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 389
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 7:22 am: |
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Hi Chris,
Perhaps we are both a little confused over this Sculcoates business, so I will try to get a clear definition from the local studies library.
I have it in my head that Donston was born in Charles Street, and I presume this comes from one of the books I have read.
Rgds
John |
Chris Phillips
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Cgp100
Post Number: 1019
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 7:47 am: |
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With the help of Google, it seems there were two Church Streets, one on the west bank of the river in Sculcoates parish, and one on the east in Drypool.
The following is extracted from one of a series of posts on the YORKSGEN-L Rootsweb mailing list, by Margaret Taylor in Toronto, who was indexing the Catalogue of "Photographs of Old Hull", taken by the Hull Corporation Health Dept.1890-1930s.
The information below might be of interest to Linda who was interested in Church St. Today I told her it was east of the River Hull, but it looks as though there could have been a different one as well!--
Photo Ref No 1185
A view looking north at No.2 Leo Place,Church Street Sculcoates.Church Street became Wincolmlee sometime between 1885 and 1895.Leo Place was divided into 2 by a party wall, half of the houses were in Leo Place,Church St. and the other half in Leo Place,Cumberland St (1889 O/S map) The picture also shows the rear of property in Church Street.
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/YORKSGEN/2000-11/0975171086
Funnily enough, a neighbouring post describes the location of Grotto Square, where a Robert Stephenson owned houses in 1834:
Photo Ref No 408
A view looking north and showing the property numbered 11 to 13 Mason St.The picture also shows the large tunnel entrance of Grotto Sq. which contained 23 houses.Grotto Sq. ran all the way through from Mason St. to Sykes St. where it emerged with a less grand opening. Notice the cellar dwellings which were common in this area. The house to the left of the picture although appearing to be smaller in size to its neighbours, has a much grander Georgian door casing.The entrances to 2 more squares can be seen in the picture and they are Marvel Place to the right and William's Sq. to the left.
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/YORKSGEN/2000-11/0973854667
In another post she says that copies of the photos are available from the Local Studies Department of Hull Central Library for £3.50 each (that was in 2000).
Chris Phillips
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 661
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 5:27 pm: |
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Has anyone ever tried to link George Stephenson, the inventor of the "the Rocket" steam locomotive, with D'Onston's family?
Jeff |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 435
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 26, 2005 - 7:25 pm: |
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J.B.
Was George from Hull/Yorkshire ?
Chris P.
I e-mailed the people concerning the May 26 6:36 post of yours above.
HowBrown
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 390
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 9:08 am: |
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Hi Howard & Jeffrey,
George Stephenson of "Rocket" fame was born Newcastle upon Tyne, about 100 miles north of Hull, so I doubt there will be a connection.
Rgds
John |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 391
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 7:47 pm: |
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Hi Chris Phillips,
I am sorry for a delay in replying to your earlier posts regarding the two Church Streets.
Having had the chance to do a little research, I can state that the registration district of Sculcoates was much larger than the parish of Sculcoates, it covered an area to the west, north and east of the Hull registration district, which was based roughly on the lines of the medieval town. Church Street Drypool would have been in the Sculcoates registration district. The second Church Street seems to be right on the border of the two registration districts, and I shall try to research further on this as soon as time permits.
However this second Church Street, which later became part of Wincolmlee, sounds as though it would have been on the banks of the River Hull (as is the present day Wincolmlee), an ideal place for a mill, and many of these old mills were situated along the banks of the river.
From the documents that I obtained from the library earlier this week [see my post 384 (c)]I can say that Union Mill would have been situated in what is today Wincolmlee.
I hope to be able to clarify this when I have looked into it further.
Rgds
John |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 392
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 8:00 pm: |
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Hi Howard,
I found the following entry in the National Probate Calendars 1889, page 360.
Richard Stephenson
Personal Estate £178. 14s 6d.
6, July The will of Richard Stephenson late of the Borough of Kingston Upon Hull Gentleman who died 5 January 1889 at Kinston Upon Hull was proved at York by the Reverand Samuel Lord of Douglas in the Isle of Man Wesleyan Methodist Minister one of the executors.
I cannot be sure that it is our man, but the date seems to fit.
Rgds
John |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 446
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 8:13 pm: |
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Terrific work, Mr. Savage !!!
In 1889, what was 178 British pounds ? Is it possible,from your work,that you have discovered Stephensons' family suffering some sort of economic collapse? From a profitable and wealthy seed-crusher to having his seeds crushed by the tax man?
If RDS did recieve any support, it certainly appears that the dad didn't provide it.
Hats Off To Savage !
HowBrown
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Nina Thomas
Inspector
Username: Nina
Post Number: 244
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 11:06 pm: |
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Hi John,
Great work finding the will of Richard Stephenson. It definitely is him.
Nina  |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 666
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 11:25 pm: |
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Hi all,
Thanks John regarding George Stephenson. It was just a shot.
Howard, have you or Ivor or Harris ever noticed that D'Onston's father died in January 1889. It's rather close in date to the Whitechapel Murders. One can make a possible logic jump that if D'Onston was the murderer, word that his father was gravely ill might have caused him to stop his work in Whitechapel, and go back to Hull.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 447
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 8:01 am: |
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J.B.
Thanks for positing that question.
Of the numerous reasons why Nina and I and the other folks [ hopefully you now likewise ] are exploring the parents,wills,relations,etc. is that your question has gone unanswered all these years and should be,if it could be.
In the case of almost every suspect in the WM...from Druitt..Tumbelty..Ostrog...Barnett..obviously the Royals..ad infinitum...regarding these people...everyone's source of income is accounted for ....except this one. Living off of women..a scant few articles in the PMG...and ?
Up until the inevitably failed cosmetic company that Mrs. Collins bankrolled, RDS' sources of income are listed few and far between. We think its rather important to find out where he recieved his monies. Previous research into this issue hasn't been successful. We may be more productive.
Jeff, from my view, and its only my opinion,not anyone elses, I believe that RDS and the father may have been on the outs since 1876,when he married Deary. We're talking about a man [ the father ] who was becoming more involved with his society at large and had a degree of influence in it [ remembering how he landed RDS his job at the Customs House ], its fairly easy to see that the marriage in 1876 of his youngest son to the family servant could get this man,considering the times, to cut off RDS in more ways than one. Thats why,imho,I don't think RDS recieved any money from him. I'm looking towards the mama and other relations.
Could RDS have gone back to Hull when his father was dying ? Good point. We know RDS was engaging in those shenanigans with Marsh just a fortnight before the father died, so your guess is as good as anyone elses. If he was ostracized,just leaving London Hospital and moving to St.Martins prior to the death of his dad,maybe not,in my book.
(Message edited by howard on May 28, 2005)
HowBrown
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