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Howard Brown
Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 440
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 6:59 am: | 
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Here is a URL that Chris Phillips located that shows an old map of Sculcoates [ from the mid-1850's ]...
If you go here - http://www.old-maps.co.uk/ - and enter Sculcoates as
the place name, search, and when the miniature image has appeared click on
"Enlarged View", it's the road that runs along the west bank of the river,
south from St Mary's Church. It's named twice, once where it runs under the
railway and again at the bottom of the bulge labelled "East Sculcoates
Ward".
This thread will be used for miscellaneous items relative to RDS and his life,his family,and various things..
HowBrown
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 689
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 10, 2005 - 3:09 pm: |
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Check this out...
The Times, Monday, Jan 21, 1884; pg. 7; Issue 31035; col A
News in Brief
Category: News in Brief
Full Text: Copyright 1884, The Times
**********************************************
Wondering if this ship was owned by Stephenson's family......................
Article CS117753397
HowBrown
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 881
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, August 28, 2005 - 9:46 pm: |
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Are there there any current Casebook members that were in attendence at the Cloak and Dagger meeting back in June of 2002 that heard Mr. Andy Aliffe's discussion on Stephenson ?
I know that Mr. Adrian Morris, the editor of the Whitechapel Society 1888 was there,but Mr. Morris isn't a site member. Perhaps someone else was there and could give us a bit of help.
In Mr. Aliffe's discussion,it is mentioned that Stephenson would recieve a full academic education [ being that Stephenson's father was a member of the social elite and that the father was a "major employer" in Hull.].. Did Mr. Aliffe mean that Stephenson recieved a college, or beyond high school, education?
Likewise,Mr. Aliffe stated back in 2002 that Stephenson went "Onward to Paris...Stephenson resumed his earlier studies and completed a law degree.." [ Page 17-18, Ripperologist # 42 August 2002 ].
Looking at our chronology of Stephenson that we have been able to put together something is drastically out of kilter if there was any chance of Mr. Aliffe being correct. This is not to say Mr. Aliffe provided improper information,rather he used information that perhaps the master prevaricator Stephenson himself stated.
Because...this increasingly difficult to gauge suspect's suspectibility is looking more and more suspect for our suspicious minds...
Where could Stephenson have fit in a law degree?
In 1858,according to Harris,he went to Paris for "further study in medicine" [ page 93 of The True Face ]...while in his teens [presumably from 1856-1861, his teen years] he studied in Munich...and that was with the chemist,Dr. Allan....
In 1860 of course he was off with Garibaldi...and then,according to census discoveries by Chris Scott,he was living at home. Within 2 years...Sudden Death is pushing pencils at the Customs House.
I know some people will claim that during this 5 year period at The Customs House,Stephenson schlepped down to London to go to night school and thats where he recieved either a law degree or medical degree. And we know who those people are....Stephenson was more involved enjoying the girls from Hull during this time.
So...whats the deal? Whats a man with a medical degree..and a law degree doing at Customs House from 1863-1868 ? Honing his skills?
Any ideas folks?
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John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 469
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 29, 2005 - 9:57 pm: |
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Hi Howard,
As you know I am trying, alas slowly, to trace more information about the Stephenson family in Hull, but I must say that the statement that Donston's father was a member of the local social elite, is something I am beginning to doubt as I have been unable to find any new information about him (so far). It may also be stretching things a bit far to suggest that he was a major employer in the city, he may have employed say 50-100 men, but other industries such as shipbuilding and fishing would have employed hundreds if not thousands.
I believe that an earlier researcher has tried to find details of Donston's schooling, but with little success. So now my aim is to try and track down information on his brother Richard, as it is becoming to look as though he may have been the high flyer, and not the father.
I am afraid progress in all of this is proving rather slow, but no doubt in time something new will turn up. I also intend to consult the Lloyds Register of Shipping for 1883-84 and see if I can find any details of the vessel mentioned in your earlier post.
Form Hull, Hell, and Halifax Good Lord Deliver Us.
John |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4891
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 5:18 am: |
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John, there was a Richard Stephenson, water bailiff at the custom house in 1882. Could this be Donston's brother?
Robert |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 470
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 12:25 pm: |
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Hi Robert,
That sounds like our man - good find. Any other information on him?
Howard,
Re your ship "Stephenson"
Lloyds Register of Shipping 1st. July 1882 - 30th. June 1883.
Vessel Name: Stephenson
Construction: Iron Hull, Screw Schooner, built Hull 1872.
Length: 219ft. 2inches, Beam 30ft. Depth 16ft. 7ins
Engine: 99HP built by Gilbert & Co. Hull
Port of Registry: Hull
Owners: Moran & Sanderson.
The register for 1883-4 is missing, but in 1884-5 the vessel is no longer listed, so it probably is this ship.
Rgds
John |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4893
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 1:06 pm: |
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John, I thought I had him or a son again in the 1910s, but I can't find it now.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4894
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 1:39 pm: |
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I've no idea whether this man concerns us.
MAY 5th 1879
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4895
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 2:55 pm: |
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John, Howard
The water bailiff may have been Donston's dad. Does it look as if "water bailiff" has been written underneath this mess from 1881?
Robert |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 885
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 4:40 pm: |
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John..
Thanks for the updates and it doesn't matter at all,buddy,that it takes so long to find things regarding RDS and his family. Whatever is found is valuable....these threads may be here for another century [ hopefully ], so the time ain't an issue.
Thanks likewise for finding out if the ship was the one I found a while back. I was hoping it was owned by Old Man Stephenson,but as we can see from your research,it wasn't.
In Mr. Aliffe's transcribed speech,although its mentioned that Old Man Stephenson was a member of the "social elite" [ More on him would be found if in fact he was a member of the nouveau riche or from an old money family in material from organizations he may have joined in Hull,as a hint..]...the part that made me do a double take was the mentioning of the "law degree".
Nowhere in True Face did Mr. Harris mention this. If there is any truth [ and again,this is not to say that Mr. Aliffe is incorrect or intentionally making up a claim...] to this, then it would appear Mr. Harris was "one-upped" by Mr. Aliffe and perhaps spent too much time venting, and inconclusively at that,at the Maybrick Diary.
Or maybe its a good thing. Maybe someone here will find,through the slow and arduous process of research, the true facts about RDS.
Robert Chazz....
Yes,I see "water bailiff"...but the rest is indecipherable. Nice find....where is that from,sor?
Nice find about that Richard Stephenson clipping..Am I correct in that Richard was in the advertising business in 1879,from this excerpt,if in fact its Sudden Death's brother? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4896
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 4:42 pm: |
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There is a Richard Stephenson, age 64, water bailiff in 1871. Trouble is, his wife is Elizabeth, not Isabella.
Anyone got any paracetamol?
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4897
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 4:52 pm: |
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How, I'm not sure what to make of the Times item.
The indecipherable item was the 1881 census. It seems to be Donston's dad. Richard's wife is Isabella, three years younger than him. There is also an Elizabeth A Lord, given as grand daughter (but surely daughter?) age 48, born Hull, Wesleyan minister's wife. Also a William D Lord, grandson, solicitor's articled law clerk, age 20 born Scarborough. Address is 48 Spring St Hull.
In the 1871 census item the wife is again three years younger than the husband, only she's called Elizabeth.
Robert |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 888
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 5:42 pm: |
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Robert...
Manoshevitz ! This " Richard Stephenson, age 64, water bailiff in 1871..." was born in 1807 just like RDS's Old Man...Its probably Papa Sudden Death...
To add more headaches [ sorry...] Isabella's mother was named Elizabeth { Elizabeth Dauber }
As to the granddaughter reference..that is a mistake. Elizabeth was the oldest sibling and was 48 in 1881,being born in 1833.
Whew! I'm glad we have all this stuff delineated to make it easy for dummies like me to locate data quickly...
You're more than likely correct about this being Stephenson's dad. Good find, R.C.
Now....exactly what is a water bailiff? Do members of the 'social elite' participate in this profession? Or perhaps a part-time job or hobby for the Old Man? Is it a job usually associated with the proletaire? |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4898
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 6:08 pm: |
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How, John would know better than me. If you go to http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/Misc/Transcriptions/ERY/Hull1892StreetsA.html
you'll see that Mr Gresham is living among middle-class people.
Robert |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 891
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 6:17 pm: |
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Thanks R.C.
Here's the definition of a 'water bailiff'....
water bailiff
noun
1. An official whose duty is to enforce bylaws relating to fishing, or to prevent poaching in protected waters.
************************************************
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4899
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 6:52 pm: |
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Howard, I think 100 years ago the post also involved something pertaining to customs collection etc.
Here's White's Directory of Hull 1882
Robert |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 471
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 8:14 pm: |
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Hi Robert and Howard,
Can you confirm that the address for William Lord was 48 Spring Street, and not 48 Spring Bank. I have something in the back of my mind about 48 Spring Bank, because I checked out the address a couple of months ago and it turned out to be a pub. (just up the road - quiz night Tuesday).
This water bailiff thing has got me wondering, a quick google search was not much help, but water bailiff does appear to be related to Customs in Medievil times. Looking at the above entry from Whites Directory, it seems to me that the personnel are listed in order of seniority, so our Richard Stephenson was low down in rank. ( jerquer, google tells me was "a customhouse officer who searches ships for unentered goods). I guess that the water bailiff would have been someone who made visits to ships. I have an old friend, now retired from Hull Customs who would probably know, but I only bump into him occasionally at Tesco.
The good ship "Stephenson". I have been thinking ( it often happens at this time of night when I have been drinking) must have had that name for a reason, now ships often are sold from one owner to the other, so that if I go back to the year of build we may find that the original owner was someone different and hopefully a Stephenson. It is on my list of things to do this week.
Rgds
John |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 472
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 8:19 pm: |
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PS.
I also was going to add that the Mr. Wilson MP, who appeared as a witness in the court case, would almost certainly have been from the Wilson Shipping Line Company, the same family who owned Tranby Croft, the setting for the Royal Baccarat scandal.
Rgds
John |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 826
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 30, 2005 - 8:57 pm: |
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Hi John,
Does your linking Mr. Wilson, MP, with the Wilsons of the Tranby Croft scandal a possible way for D'Onston to be linked to the Royal Family? No, I just think it is a coincidence, though an interesting one.
Best wishes,
Jeff |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4901
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 31, 2005 - 5:10 am: |
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John, it was definitely Spring St.
I've been having a look at Hull Customs House, and they were doing a nice trade in watered-down wine. I also found this item, Aug 6th 1895. Why am I reminded of Eccles and Bluebottle?
The second item is "Dad's Army."
Robert |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 473
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 5:10 am: |
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Hi Robert,
Thanks for clarifying Spring Street for me. I would love to hear more about the watered down wine. Crazy guy this Isaac Leggott, someone finds an unexploded bomb on the south shore of the river, takes it over to the north shore, were someone simply wants to throw it back in!
Jeffrey,
I was not trying to suggest any link between Donston and royalty, I was simply attempting to show that the Richard Stephenson in question (not even for sure if it our man) had friends with wealth and influence. The reference to Tranby Croft was just to assist anyone reading the message.
Rgds
John |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4908
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 6:43 am: |
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John, here are the items.
OCT 1st 1869
OCT 27th 1869
Of course, RDS may have done a bit of fiddling at the custom house, but hardly enough to set himself up for life.
Robert |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 474
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 9:40 am: |
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Hi Robert,
Thanks for posting that very interesting article, I shall try to check the local newspapers of the time and see if they have any reports of this.
Howard,
The vessel Stephenson first appears in Lloyds Register of Shipping in 1874-5, the owner being W. Moran, by 1876-7 the owner is listed as Moran & Sanderson. But of course there must have been a reason for the choice of name.
Rgds
John |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4910
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, September 01, 2005 - 12:13 pm: |
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John, here's one about the seed trade.
JAN 10th 1893
Robert |
R.J. Palmer
Chief Inspector
Username: Rjpalmer
Post Number: 736
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 5:36 pm: |
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Look closely at that photograph of Stephenson on the cover of Melvin's book. Doesn't it look like he's got a glass-eye? |
Howard Brown
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Howard
Post Number: 1070
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 15, 2005 - 6:58 pm: |
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Rog:
Yeah,it does. Good eye on your part. |
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