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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2182
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 3:10 pm: | 
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Hi All,
How,Rob,Dan,
Donald Rumbelow doesnt give the date but its implicit as being 1888 in the term
"at the time"
he couldnt have meant any other time than around 1888 or the entire paragragh makes no sense.
Donald seems convinced that White"s description refers to Mitre Square.
As far as the weather went that night it was reported as being very cold in several accounts.It comes up in discussions about how the police surgeons arrived at a time of death.In the Mammoth Book ,the temperature for 29-30 September 1888 is given as 6 degrees centgd. and 43 degrees frht."a chilly night".
Natalie |
Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 593
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 4:53 pm: |
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Hi Natalie, all
Just a couple of thoughts regarding 'The Peoples Journal' article.
There is evidence in the article that Mitre Square is the murder site referred to:
"My only excuse for interfering with the passage of this man would have been his association with the man we were looking for, and I had no real grounds for connecting him with the murder".
A reference to Stride perhaps? If it is complete fabrication, then it is a strange comment to make.
The article appeared ten days after Stephen White died. This seems to me a bit quick to get an article together, also whoever wrote the article had access to a photograph of Stephen White so what else did he have access to. I believe that Church Passage was the alley where the two men were in hiding.
I do understand we all need to be cautious where this article is concerned, especially in light of the obituary article which appeared the same day claiming he had just missed Jack the Ripper, but I don't think we should dismiss it so easily.
Rob |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2183
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 5:26 pm: |
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Hi Rob,
Yes, helpful your observations- but do you mean Stride or Eddowes?
I never have dismissed any of Donald Rumbelow"s work-in terms of having a wide,detailed and altogether thorough knowledge of the case,his own experience and contacts and knowledge of Scotland Yard as a former detective there,and an ongoing involvement,Donald Rumbelow is second to none.If he thinks Sgt White"s story is genuine
then I would be reluctant to dismiss it.
Natalie |
Robert Clack
Chief Inspector
Username: Rclack
Post Number: 594
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 5:41 pm: |
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Hi Natalie,
I believe he was in Church Passage taking the reports of the men in hiding while Eddowes was being murdered. And he had no grounds for connecting the man to Strides murder.
Just my belief.
Rob |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 704
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 12, 2005 - 6:21 pm: |
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..Don [ Rumbelow ] was quoting the article in The People’s Journal and was not himself the authority for the claim that White’s report was widely circulated etc., but I don’t think the East London newspaper story is widely known so you could mention that if you like...
Information in this post and the post before [ under my name ] came from Mr. Paul Begg |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2184
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 4:20 am: |
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Rob,
I had never before thought of that but quite right, he had apparently been taking a report from two men in hiding and it was supposedly when he turned away that he came upon the man.....
Howard,
Donald Rumbelow has made much of White"s alleged report in both his recent books.He cites it as
support for the Druitt suspect and gives several pages over to it.
I am always mindful that each and every piece of information the police received would not automatically have been given to the press and the public and that some information they kept to themselves ,as is the case now.Also that so much has been lost from police files,apparently going back many,many years that we cannot verify everything that has come down to us.
Interestingly Macnaghten seems to have had a sight of this report "this man in appearance strongly resembled the individual seen by the City PC in Mitre Square" some take the "City PC" bit to be a slip up, since White was a metropolitan policeman but in light of the fact that two other [plain clothes detectives]were watching the square and these could have been from the City there may have been a sighting by someone else as well or indeed simly a slip of the pen by Macnaghten.
In another book I read that Mitre Square was being watched because of Jewish insurgents.The synagogue was a place to which the radical jews were taking their demonstrations starting from Berner Street.There is evidence to support this theory on the casebook [newspapers]in the Jewish Chronicles of 1888.So the police may have been keeping watch on Mitre Square simply for people leaving the Jewish club or activities focusing on the Great Synagogue there.
Paul Begg is no greater or more reliable authority than Donald Rumbelow,who has first hand knowledge of how the police work.
Natalie |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 708
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 13, 2005 - 7:05 pm: |
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Dear Natalie:
From Mr. Begg....
I don’t claim to be a more reliable or greater authority than Don, of course, although Don’s not really kept up with all the new stuff and even his latest revision was firmly rooted in the 1970s, and I’m pretty sure that he was unaware of the report in the East London Advertiser, so I don’t know whether he’d still place any emphasis on the White story. Whether he would or wouldn’t doesn’t really matter. The fact is that contrary to what Natalie said, Donald Rumbelow was not the source for saying that White’s report was widely circulated or that White influenced Anderson’s thinking. That was claimed by the author of the article in The People’s Journal. And whilst it is certainly true that a vast amount of official documentation has tragically gone missing, probably destroyed, and that reports of the event reported in that article may have been among them, the fact is that surviving reports do not make any mention at all of Sgt. White having seen or heard anything on the night of the Stride/Eddowes murder. In fact he seems to have been primarily involved in making house-to-house inquiries in Berner Street and following up inquiries with Matthew Packer. It must be supposed that had White seen a man shortly after one of the murders then he would have been engaged in pursuing related enquiries and that this would have been mentioned somewhere. It isn’t and in particular I would draw your attention to HO 144/221/A49301C, ff. 184—94, this being a report by Chief Inspector Donald Swanson dated 6 November 1888 relating to the facts known to the Metropolitan Police about the murder in Mitre Square. No mention whatever is there made to any police surveillance of the Square or to a man having been seen by White, and I feel certain there would have been as it would clearly have been highly relevant. Likewise, in the case of the Berner Street murder, which fits the geography indicated in The People’s Journal far better than Mitre Square, comparisons were made between the descriptions of the man seen by Schwartz and the man seen by P.C. Smith, and one would expect to find a comparison with the description of the man seen by White if he had seen anyone. The evidence of existing reports therefore indicate that whenever White witnessed the event described in The People’s Journal it is almost beyond question that it was not on the night of the double event. Further, no one has addressed the report in the East London Advertiser which gives a different account of the event, notably that a woman was stabbed not murdered and mutilated.
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2187
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 4:53 am: |
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Hi Howard,
Many Thanks for the trouble you have taken over this ....below is my reply to Paul Begg:
For Paul Begg
Thankyou taking trouble to respond to this confusion regarding Sgt White"s alleged sighting of the ripper in Mitre Square.
First I was unable to read the information you talk about in the East London Advertiser of 27 August 1919 as I can find no link to it anywhere.
As I understand it the police issued a description of the man on October 2nd 1888 as follows:
Slight
Height 5 feet 8 ins
complexion Dark
no whiskers
black diagonal coat
hard felt hat
collar and tie
carried a newspaper parcel
respectable appearance
First this doesnt tally with Lawende"s description of a man with a sailor like appearance,a moustache,felt,peaked cap,
and only a litte taller than Catherine Eddowes putting him at about 5feet 3ins to 4 ins tall.
Second, Arthur Griffiths in 1898[Paul Begg The Facts]wrote this time in connection with Kosminski as a suspect " This man was said to resemble the murderer by the one person who caught a glimpse of him-the police constable in Mitre Square."
George R Sims and Macnaghten quote similarly elsewhere with regard to a policeman getting a glimpse of "Jack" in "Mitre Court".
It would seem to me that there was a policeman who saw someone in Mitre Square the night of the double event or else why has it come down to us from several police sources?
The above Police Description of Oct 2nd 1888 and in their various notes/memoirs is a very different one from Lawende"s so there is no confusion there-[ie it was not the Lawende"s Description as some have said before]
It also makes sense of Abberline"s apparent willingness to believe in the Hutchinson description which looks today like it is at variance with most witness statements but was taken seriously none the less by the man in charge.
Best Wishes
Natalie |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 714
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 12:12 pm: |
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Dear Natalie,
First of all, here’’s the article in the East London Advertiser, 27 September 1919 from which you’’ll see that in this version of the story it was White himself who was watching an East End street and that it was during his ten minute absence that a woman was stabbed there. It isn’’t said that the woman died from her wounds, though arguably that is implicit, and White is said to have seen no one.
DEATH OF FAMOUS EAST -END DETECTIVE.
OFFICER WHO JUST MISSED CATCHING
THE MYSTERIOUS "JACK THE RIPPER."
One of the smartest detectives the Metropolitan Police Force ever knew has passed away in ex -Detective -Inspector White who retired from the C.I.D. in 1900 after completing 27 years' service.
After a few years he was promoted to a sergeant and was transferred from Kennington to Leman Street, Whitechapel.
There he made several important captures, among them being the arrest of the dynamitards, Cunningham and Burton, at the Tower of London at the time of the explosion there, for which service he was rewarded and commended by the Home Office.
In 1879 he discovered a Fenian arsenal in the New Cut, Lambeth, and captured the proprietor, who was sentenced to a long term of penal servitude.
His experience of murders, was perhaps unique. He was engaged on the whole of the Jack the Ripper crimes which caused such a grim sensation among East Enders. One night he was on what appeared to be a certain clue to the mysterious murderer of women in the Whitechapel region. He kept watch in an East End street, but the murderer's movements were not in accordance with anticipation. For about ten minutes only he left the street, and to his amazement he found on his return that a woman had been stabbed. He saw no man anywhere, and the mystery became even more baffling. As is well known, Jack the Ripper was never discovered.
Mr. White was also associated with the notorious case of Harry Alt, who murdered a German baker in Turner Street; Sullivan the St. George in the East murderer; Cronin the Limehouse assassin; Roman, who committed murder in Angel Court, Whitechapel; Seaman, who killed an aged Jew and his housekeeper in Turner Street; Karacrewski, the pole, who shot a man and woman dead in Brick Lane; and Kate Marshall, who killed her sister in Dorset Street, in the very house where the last Ripper murder was committed.
It is interesting to note that a son of his is a detective at the G. P. O.
The funeral took place on Tuesday.
Turning to the description you cite, this was the description of a man seen in Berner Street, possibly with Elizabeth Stride, by P.C. William Smith. He testified at the inquest, ““When I was in Berner street at 12.30 or so I saw a man and a woman talking together. The woman was like the deceased - in fact, I am sure the woman is the deceased. The two stood a few yards up Berner street. I noticed the man who was talking to her. He had a parcel done up in newspaper in his hand, about 18 inches long and 6 to 8 inches broad. He was about 5ft 7in high, as near as I can say. He had a hard felt hat on, and was wearing dark clothes and a cutaway coat. I did not overhear any of their conversation. Both of them seemed to be sober. I did not see much of the man's face, but he had no whiskers, and as near as I could judge was about 28 years of age. He was respectably dressed.””
There can be no doubt that your cited description is the one given by Smith because several newspapers (take the Daily Telegraph 6/10/88 as an example) attribute that description to a man seen with Stride in Berner Street and The Police Gazette (19/10/88) gives it as an official police description of that man:- ““At 12.35 a.m., 30th September, with Elizabeth Stride, found murdered at 1 a.m., same date, in Berner -street - A MAN, age 28, height 5 ft. 8 in., complexion dark, small dark moustache; dress, black diagonal coat, hard felt hat, collar and tie; respectable appearance. Carried a parcel wrapped up in newspaper.””
Moving on to the slightly more contentious issue of the alleged City P.C. in Mitre Square, we don’’t know of any City P.C. who saw anybody suspicious in Mitre Square and all known references to that P.C. seem to be derived from Melville Macnaghten and pretty much follow what he wrote in the now famous Memoranda, so it would seem that there aren’’t ‘‘several police sources’’ for the City P.C., as you say, but just one, Macnaghten.
It seems generally accepted that Macnaghten meant P.C. Smith. I’’ve observed elsewhere that in the Memoranda Macnaghten said that Stride’’s murderer ““was disturbed by some Jews””. If the murderer was disturbed by anyone it was by one Jew. It is therefore possible that Macnaghten transposed Lawende, Levy and Harris from Mitre Square to Berner Street and P.C. Smith from Berner Street to Mitre Square and that this accounts for all the confusion.
At the end of which, it looks likely that at least a stabbing and perhaps a murder took place in a street White was watching, but that The People’’s Journal grossly exaggerated the event. When and where the incident happened remains to be seen, but research may yet tell us.
Nats...above from Paul Begg. |
Restless Spirit
Detective Sergeant
Username: Judyj
Post Number: 77
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 2:47 pm: |
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AP
You've got a great sense of humor.
I could be silent spirit, or just plain spook.
regards
Restless Spirit
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2188
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 4:25 pm: |
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Howard,
I was thrilled to get all this information
and can"t thank yourself and Paul enough for taking such pains!
It has all begun to make sense now -the way this story seems to have developed a life of its own via Macnaghten and the East London Advertiser"s
article of 27 Sept.1919.
The description too,----switch PC Smith"s Berner Street sighting for Sgt.White"s alleged Mitre Square sighting ,and you have a more likely
scenario!
So again ,Many Thanks to yourself and Paul, for this clarification.
I must admit I am still a bit puzzled about why Schwartz"s "Mr Broad-Shoulders" doesn"t seem to have grabbed the attention of the police
-he is clearly not the same man as this "Mr Slight,aged 28"-
apparently seen by PC Smith to have been talking with Elizabeth at 12.35!
Oh Well Howard-at least a bit more of the jigsaw
has fallen into place.
All my Best
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2296
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 6:22 pm: |
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Howard
has Paul Begg passed onto the other side and you communicate with him via a water glass and some badly placed playing cards?
If so, my sorrow and condolences.
Ah, these Restless Spirits! |
Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 716
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 6:49 pm: |
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O most sapient conclusion,A.P. !
He is indeed on the "other side" now,Wise Wolf...
Actually,er...he ain't. I am. I accidentally sent him a jpeg picture of my wall...the one with the 1,000 Caz's on it. I'm being blackmailed,okay A.P. ?
I've got to be his posting bitch for a month or else the photo,not his posts, gets placed here.
Sorry [ seriously, A.P. ] to have used up some space here on this great thread. You know how one thing can segue into the next....
Carry on with the Cutbush reports ! Back into the Sun !!
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2190
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 5:02 am: |
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Good Gracious Howard!....1000 Caz pictures on your wall?You and Caz MUST have been busy![Caz getting her photos taken and you making yourself blind posting them!
Caz,
Posing as a Calender babe now Caz? - Well good on yer!!!At least you"ve got what it takes not like some in that there film!
Nats
x
x |
David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, July 14, 2005 - 12:29 pm: |
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Hi Howard.
Regarding the piece on Sgt.White that you have typed in full above. Is this from Paul Begg's latest book, "JTR - The Facts"??
If so, I shall lose no time in getting a copy.
I have all of his previous works. A very dependable Author.
Cheers Howard.
DAVID C.
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Howard Brown
Chief Inspector
Username: Howard
Post Number: 718
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 15, 2005 - 6:24 pm: |
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Dear David
No sir, it isn't in the Definitive, thats for sure. Sgt. White is not mentioned in the book,except for the interview White conducted with Packer [ of grapes fame ] after the Double Event.
I'm going to hear it now,but I still have yet to purchase the latest, The Facts. Its on my need to do list.
Then again, there is a lengthy section in the A-Z which offers a caveat to White's story.
Hope this helps, Dave....
Nats...you're welcome dear...
Back to The Sun and Cutbush....carry on ! |
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