| Author |
Message |
    
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1948
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 5:52 pm: | 
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AP has ofcourse posted much of the pension record of Uncle Charles,but one or two things I noted today when I was researching some Ripper stuff, were that under "significant marks/scars" is written "Knife wounds-left thigh". There was a space to write whether any injuries were sustained during the course of duty but disappointingly there is only a tick and no comment! I noted though that the usual method of recording this on most officers forms was either the word "NONE" or some short description of how the injuries had happened-irritating since it might be interesting to know how Uncle Charles acquired knife wounds to his thighs do you agree AP!
Natalie |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2103
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 6:04 pm: |
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Thanks for that, Natalie.
I would love to take the credit for uncle Charles' pension record becoming public, but that was of course down to Robert's hard labour.
I feel your further efforts do show just how borderline this can all be, for instance that little 'tick' you mention could make a world of difference.
Somewhere along the line we seem to be stuck between 'NONE' and a 'tick'.
Were the knife wounds on the left thigh an injury of work or play?
We don't know.
But we must find out.
Nicely done, Natalie. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1949
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 20, 2005 - 6:14 pm: |
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Thanks AP----and credit to Robert for unearthing most of it.It really is intriguing and as soon as I have time I will make a further visit to dig and delve!
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4421
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 6:39 am: |
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Natalie, have you been to Kew?!
There was a file that Mark couldn't consult : "There's another CH Cutbush mentioned but when I checked the dates of the documents cited, I found two of them were dated too early (MEPO2/28 and 3/85)and another (MEPO2/136) was unavailable as it is at a government department. MEPO2/85 was inspected by me; it is dated 1845-1884 and deals with office routine in the Commissioner's Office."
On the pension record, there was a kind of dash or tick against injuries, so I just typed it out as blank. The wounds were in the right thigh.
I'd like to say I laboured hard and long on the Kew stuff, but the labour was actually Mark's.
Natalie, if you're ever in Colindale (don't go specially) do you think you could photocopy and send us the "Sun" reports on Cutbush? I don't think we have those. You will be reimbursed either in cash, teabags or brandy (take your pick).
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1950
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 8:46 am: |
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Hi Robert,
Yes I did go to Kew-the traffic- Oh My!
I had a few things I wanted to look up and while looking at the Metropolitan Police"s 1888 Pension
records I looked up Charles Cutbush while I was at it.This was in file mepo 21/21.
Certainly I will go to Colindale again . I have to go to Wales next week and work as well but possibly the week beg.6th June or the following one.
Best Natalie
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4422
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 9:14 am: |
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Thanks Natalie. I believe the "Sun" articles covered several days. The Sourcebook says 14th Feb and following dates, although Macnaghten says 13th and following.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2104
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 1:13 pm: |
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Robert
harping back to this Cutbush/Cuthbert thing.
I'm still confused, as I just found a Chief-Inspector Cuthbert swearing in 'specials' for the Trafalgar Square bash in November 1887.
Now this has got to be uncle Charles, hasn't it?
Regarding the Sun reports on THC, I think they ran about 10 stories, but I can't be sure. I did index it in the 'Myth' but as I have no copies left, I can't look! |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4425
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 1:32 pm: |
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AP, just checked : you've listed 13th-19th inclusive.
Re Cuthbert, when I got onto the police orders site I saw that there really was such a person, whose postings seemed to tally with "Times" articles. For instance, I think it was he who got the present from the traders.
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2105
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 2:36 pm: |
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Thanks Robert.
I suppose then I must accept that this Cuthbert varmint was really there. It does ruin several fine theories of mine, but that is the name of the game.
On a lighter note I just found some of the residue of the Cutbush clan selling off one of the family properties in Maidstone from the LVP in 1974.
The property was called 'Babylon'.
I thought that entirely appropriate.
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1951
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 2:55 pm: |
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Returning to the stab wounds in Uncle Charles Thighs:
The Cutbushes seem to have had some kind of "penchant" for such below the belt activity.I mean Thomas himself ,and we do know this for sure,
went straight for the lower trunk!
Yesterday I noted in the police pension records that Abberline and Cutbush appear to have shared an office in the Commissioners Division.
Whether this was just a floor at Scotland Yard I couldnt tell.
Warren was in overall charge of the Trafalgar Square Rally-his heavy handedness turning it into "Bloody Sunday".He was apparently desperate that the British Empire shouldnt suffer the same fate as the lazy "loafers"[the poor] caused the Roman Empire to suffer![sounds like he was a bit bonkers too with that big dig he had going on to find the original Mount Templar in Jerusalem ]. He was a great admirer of Gladstone on the other hand----now how did Uncle Charles rate Gladstone----?I have forgotten!--damn it.
By the way in his pension record Abberline is recorded as having had a conspicuous and deep varicose vein running down his left thigh and calf-he and Cutbush must have had some fun showing each other their thighs and calves!
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4426
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 2:59 pm: |
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AP, I think there was once a cricket match between authors and publishers, in which the Cutbush Maidstone newspaper proprietor played - but I can't remember for which side.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4427
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 3:02 pm: |
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Natalie, I suspect Uncle Charles saw Gladstone as a bit of a free spirit - even as a seagull, you might say....
Robert |
Debra J. Arif
Detective Sergeant
Username: Dj
Post Number: 51
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 4:59 pm: |
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Hi Natalie
I have only just seen this thread,CHC's stab wounds are very intriguing and very frustrating that nothing was written about them!
I look forward to seeing what else you turn up.
I have looked through the Charles Clarkson 'Police!' book that mentions Cutbush in his Whitehall office, but the book sadly doesn't mention Abberline at all.
Debra |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1954
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 21, 2005 - 6:21 pm: |
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Debra,
I don"t really know when I can next go to Kew-sometime in the next month or two.I am not free at present as I teach three days a week and go to a studio to paint as well.But I hope to go at some point and dig about again!Next trip will I think be Colindale----and I intend to go to Highgate cemetary as soon as I have a free Sunday-----I am looking forward to that as there are lots of Historical figures buried there-Karl Marx etc and numbers of the Cutbush Family I have read on these posts.
Anyway each bit often helps!
Best Natalie |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1486
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 8:44 am: |
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Hi All
Of course, the wounds indicated in Superintendent Charles Cutbush's pension record, i.e, the entry under "significant marks/scars" of "Knife wounds-left thigh" might have some deep, dark, personal reason related to his troublesome nephew and erstwhile Jack the Ripper suspect Thomas Cutbush or else an earlier suicide attempt by the police official, who eventually did commit suicide by gunshot.
However, to put a less sinister light on it, the scars might have been the result of some altercation and wounding sustained in his police work, perhaps early in his career.
It would indeed be interesting to have further information on Cutbush's police career and personal life to elucidate this point. Perhaps an additional look at the documents related to Superintendent Cutbush will help. Good luck in that research, Natalie.
All my best
Chris
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
See "Jack--The Musical" by Chris George & Erik Sitbon
The Drama of Jack the Ripper Weekend
Charlotte, NC, September 16-18, 2005
http://www.actorssceneunseen.com/ripper.asp
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4433
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 8:50 am: |
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Hi Chris
One of the most remarkable things, to my mind, is that (as far as I can gather) Thomas Cutbush wasn't Supt Charles Cutbush's nephew at all! How on earth could Macnaghten have got this wrong?
Robert |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1957
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 10:26 am: |
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Chris,
yes,trouble is you wait half an hour for each item to be called up-you can call up 3 at a time but its getting to the detail thats tricky and you often need some assistance with accessing such detailed information on the met of 1888.
But I look forward to going again in the next month or so.
Robert,
Do you mean he wasnt even related or just that you cant trace the link?
Natalie |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4434
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 11:02 am: |
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Hi Natalie
They bore the same not particularly common surname, so I suppose in some way they were related. And THC and CHC lived in the same area of London. Then too there's Macnaghten's statement, which I guess was based on something or other. But we know that Kate Hayne, Tom's mother, wasn't Supt Cutbush's sister. And we know that Thomas Taylor Cutbush, Tom's father, wasn't his brother. Nor was Supt Cutbush's wife a sibling of either Tom's father or of his mother. So as far as I can see, Supt Cutbush wasn't Tom's uncle, by either blood or marriage.
My only wild guess, is that Supt Cutbush knew Kate and her son, and the boy had got into the habit of calling him uncle, as children often do with someone when they don't know what else to call him.
Robert |
Christopher T George
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chrisg
Post Number: 1488
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 11:14 am: |
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Hi Robert and Natalie
Of course, Robert, as you say, Macnaghten appeared to believe Thomas Cutbush was the Superintendent's nephew, and thus the assumption has always been among Ripperologists that the reason the Memoranda were written was to counter the possible appearance of young Cutbush's candidacy for being the Ripper. In other words, MacNaghten was countering the stories in the Sun that could cause potential embarrassment to Supt. Cutbush and Scotland Yard. Robert, you may be right that the police official was an honorary uncle to young Cutbush, called "Uncle" in Thomas's family circle, but no close relative if a relative at all.
Best regards
Chris George
Christopher T. George
North American Editor
Ripperologist
http://www.ripperologist.info
See "Jack--The Musical" by Chris George & Erik Sitbon
The Drama of Jack the Ripper Weekend
Charlotte, NC, September 16-18, 2005
http://www.actorssceneunseen.com/ripper.asp
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AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2108
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 22, 2005 - 1:33 pm: |
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Robert is of course absolutely right when he says that we still have no evidence whatsoever to indicate that Thomas Hayne Cutbush was the nephew of Superintendent Charles Henry Cutbush, and that despite an intensive search by the pair of us - and Debra - for close on two years now.
However, the Cutbush clan is an ‘ornery one, and it is still entirely possible that THC could have been a close blood relation of CHC, and here I have never ruled out some kind of sinister connection such as incest… in fact I would go even further than that and say that I am convinced that somewhere along the line with this relationship we are looking at exactly the same situation, perhaps worse, that existed between Luke Flood Cutbush and the Mears’ sisters, a relationship that perhaps did not break the law but was scraping the very boundary of that law.
It comes to mind now some of the anomalies in the census details we have uncovered, and it would do us well to go back and carefully study these records again. If I remember rightly there was some confusion regarding THC’s birthplace; and other records appeared to indicate that Kate Hayne was at home with uncle Charles at some point.
I might be wrong, so I will go back and study all the census details again myself.
Chris is quite right to advise against a rush to the wall to pin uncle Charles up as culpable because of his leg wounds, as he points out these wounds may well have been received through his normal police duties.
However I do feel that such an incident would have been recorded in his police record - which is isn’t - and reported in the press - which as far as we know is not (and I have searched long and hard for such an incident), as such incidents where officers of the Met. were injured in the course of their duties are a matter of public record, and such incidents always resulted in the officer concerned being praised and rewarded by both the Met and the courts.
We would have normally found such an incident as this.
It is for these reasons that I tend to think these injuries were part of uncle Charles’ private life.
But Chris is right to caution us.
I’m just damned pleased to see something I was given as a rumour two years ago finally turn into a factual event.
My thanks to the rumour.
My thanks to the fact finders. |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2110
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 1:31 pm: |
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Natalie, if you do go back to Kew it might be well worth looking at these documents for further news on uncle Charles:
'Registers of Leavers
March 1889 - January 1947 (MEPO 4/339 - 351 ) give class of officer, number of certificate granted if not dismissed (1. Excellent, 2. Very Good, 3. Good, 4. Open, i.e. no comment), date certificate sent to division, number of documents an officer is entitled to, according to regulations, and date documents sent to division. These last two details are phased out around 1913-1914 and the comments on an officer's conduct are no longer expressed numerically. The abbreviation RP stands for 'resignation permitted' and is replaced in October 1920 by RR 'required to resign'. The divisional abbreviation CO stands for 'Commissioner's Office'.
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Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4445
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 2:16 pm: |
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AP, Mark sent me the index, which says "Cert No.1 very good".
Robert |
AP Wolf
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Apwolf
Post Number: 2113
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 5:08 pm: |
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Thanks Robert
So uncle Charles was a good cop.
Just in my cups last night and I was thinking to my good self, I wonder how many senior Metropolitan police officers - since the force started I mean - had knife wounds to the leg?
Quite a few, I said to myself, as search results show about two officers a year receiving serious injuries in the course of their duties during the LVP - I’m not counting deaths here - then I thought, well I wonder how many of them then go on to shoot themselves in the head?
Not quite so many.
In fact none, apart from uncle Charles that is.
Then I said to my good self, well I do wonder how many senior Metropolitan police officers had a relation that stabbed woman for a laugh?
None.
Knife wounds. Stabbing women. Head, gun, suicide.
Jack the Ripper. Same year.
Macnaghten.
Sun reports.
Lodging houses.
Police beats.
But I spot the good ship ‘Sylph’ on the horizon.
Broadmoor.
Life.
HMP.
Bless you.
How many senior police officers have committed suicide in the last 150 years?
It was a good year for the roses.
And the brandy. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1960
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 5:40 pm: |
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I have been thinking about those knife wounds too.Also the paranoia about being "poisoned"-affected both Charles and Thomas Cutbush.For Charles it was a fenian catholic plot to kill him with poisoned drinking water- as reported in the Times was it not?And for Thomas it was a belief that he was being "poisoned" by some eminent doctor"s "medicine".
... and these knife wounds .......they dont appear to have a source----no" how " or "where" or "when"! |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4448
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 5:41 pm: |
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Indeed, AP, and there's still a lot of discoveries to be made, I feel. But boy are they a slippery lot!
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4449
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 5:43 pm: |
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Natalie, the Supt's fall that gave him the headaches obviously wasn't sustained on active service. Wonder if he fell down the stairs....
Robert |
