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  | Archive through May 23, 2005 | Natalie Severn | 50 | 1 | 5-23-05 6:34 am |
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Phil Hill
Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 11
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 23, 2005 - 3:28 pm: | 
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You may have something natalie, when you say:
Already depressed, he could... have gone to Hammersmith perhaps on a prearranged visit ,to discuss with a Doctor his fears for himself as well as his mother.If he then had a thoroughly depressing prognosis about his mother and an equivocal one at best from a Doctor about his own troubles, it could all have left him suicidal.
His mother was transferred to the care of the Tuke brothers at the Manor House Asylum, Chiswick in May 1890.
It might have been the tuke'she went to see on his own account and got that depressing message. Anyone know anything about the Tuke's? were they men Druitt might have consulted about his own sanity?
A visit to them might explain a lot.
Phil |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1961
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 24, 2005 - 8:14 pm: |
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Hi Phil,
havent been able to track down more than is on here about the Tukes at present though that they were liberal thinkers,possibly quakers and in 1888 [and earlier ran a lunatic asylum[private]
on very modern humane principles.They were colleagues of some kind with Joseph Conolly a truly pioneering doctor in Hanwell not far from Hammersmith whose principles on the care of the mentally ill have scarecly been bettered today.
Another interesting point is that they were apparently very strong sympathisers with "home Rule" in Ireland.They were aquainted with the local bohemian set,-William Morris,GB Shaw,and certainly knew Oscar Wilde.These were all Socialists.
Now what has begun to intrigue me is to what extent Monty was still in 1888 the liberal thinking man he had been -or appears to have been in his youth at Oxford.
I wonder-was he a kind of Philby?Did he appear a straight as a die character but have links with an anti[British]establishment set of people who were strongly sympathetic to Home Rule and who maybe helped out the Irish Home Rule "Cause".I mean I would be surprised if he did because he came from a family of protestants some of whom were vicars and the like but a sibling of his did actually marry a catholic----and anyway you didnt have to be a catholic to be able to see the injustices that had gone on during the previous centuries.
If he had got himself mixed up in that sort of underground activity-passing information on etc he might have been blackmailed.The game might have been up.
On the other hand ,apart from the Oxford days and the possibility of links with pro-home rule
intelligencia in Hammersmith there is nothing at all else to link him with the Fenians or their sympathisers.
One thing though that it might explain to me would be Machnaghten"s willingness to name him as Jack the Ripper-a terrible posthumous indictment from a policeman of Machnaghten"s rank ,but then if he was someone Machnaghten considered "the enemy" he just might have got some perverse satisfaction from it---Machnaghten being an Orange man and descended from one of the original Apprentice boys of Derry.
While warming to this[almost certain nonsense] I wonder,Druitt being a surgeons son and all that, if HE was the mysterious purchaser of the Phoenix park surgeon"s knives a few years previously.Was it perhaps one of these that turned
up in Druitt"s chambers or school locker and caused anyone who found it to think he was Jack the Ripper?
Something gave Machnaghten the idea ,thats for sure.It would be great to find out what exactly it was.
Natalie |
Phil Hill
Sergeant
Username: Phil
Post Number: 15
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 12:39 pm: |
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Good and thought provoking post, Natalie - although to be clearly seen as speculation (as you note).
But I don't see any of the avenues proposed as necessarily impossible or unrealistic.
Unless Macnaghten was lying totally, there must have been a reason for:
a) him or the police more generally to conclude MJD was a STRONG contender as Jack; and
b) MJD's family to be suspicious;
c) Druitt to have committed suicide 9apart from his dismissal from the school).
So reviewing the possibilities in a "brainstorming sort of way is IMHO far from a waste of time.
Phil
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Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1964
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 25, 2005 - 6:47 pm: |
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Thanks Phil,
I do intend to go to Kew again over the Summer and try and find out a bit more about these Tukes.
There is also a book entitled The Chiswick Book
by Gillian Glegg that may be helpful since its part of an excellent Local History series.I"ll try the Library first.
Natalie |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 836
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 2:23 am: |
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Natalie,
The Rail Museum tells me that they have the old railway timetables at Kew. Although there is apparently not one on file covering the South Eastern in 1888, perhaps you could check similar years to get an idea of the schedule of service between Blackheath and London (especially Saturday service.
Andy S. |
John Savage
Inspector
Username: Johnsavage
Post Number: 394
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 8:20 am: |
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Hi Andy,
It should be possible to find these old train timetables, Bradshaws Railway Guide wich was published annually from 1847 would almost certainly contain the information you want.
Have you tried the National Railway Museum at York? their archive is quite extensive and they can be very helpful.
Rgds
John |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1970
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, May 28, 2005 - 9:55 am: |
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Hi Andy
yes in a few weeks I"ll pop over there again-let me know if York throws anything up meanwhile.
I treated myself today to one of the excellent Historical publications -Hammersmith & Sheperds Bush PAST,will let you know if there is anything in it worth passing on.
Natalie |
David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, May 27, 2005 - 6:09 pm: |
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Hi Phil.
Now don't give in to temptation.
A little while back, on another thread, I commended you highly for putting up a stout defence for McNaghten's integrity and honesty. It was a welcome change from the vilification he's wrongly received from Authors for some time, not to mention some posters here.
I should hope that you stand by your previous judgment. I for one agreed with you, and still say that he must have had some convincing information about Druitt, to have made him the NO.1 Ripper suspect.
Best regards.
DAVID C.
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 837
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 29, 2005 - 2:43 am: |
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It was actually the Railway Museum at York that directed me to Kew when I inquired about shedules between Blackheath and London. My first inquiry was to the Transport Museum at Covent Garden, where I got some useful information on the District Railway service to Ravenscroft Park. They seemed to think York could help me with the suburban service. Unfortunately, not. Apparently the nearest thing Kew has is summer 1887.
Here is the courteous reply I got from York:
Dear Mr Spallek
We do not actually undertake research of this kind. I would presume you are
London-based, the National Archives at Kew have very extensive runs of
railway timetables, although as with ourselves that for the SER 1888 appears
to be lacking. Season ticket fares are problemmatic, details would have been
available at the time on application and tend not to be listed even in
contemporary public timetables. Kew holds SER public TTs for July 1887 and
February 1891 under RAIL 977/5 & 6 respectively, which might enable you to
make some estimate, at this time London suburban services were growing
rapidly.
Yours sincerely
Philip Atkins
Research Centre Manager
Andy S. |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 841
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 1:00 pm: |
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Chris Scott or anyone else who has access to the resources:
Would you like to trace the J.H. Lonsdale mentioned above? Is he related to the John Lonsdale who was the third Principal at King's College, London in the early 1800's and later bishop of Lichfield? What became of our J. H. Lonsdale after he was curate at Wimbourne Minster?
Thanks in advance.
Andy S. |
Phil Hill
Chief Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 657
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 3:59 pm: |
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David, I only just read your post.
Oh no - no reassessment of Sir Melville here. My previous position remains unchanged in regard to his integrity.
You appear, however, not to have picked up my caveat, which is of longstanding.
I do believe that one interpretation of the Macnaghten memorandum (MM) might have been to cover up a connection which could have been embarrassing to the Government of the day. That might have been a Fenian connection, or (given the speed with which the file note was written after The Sun articles, to distract attention (if necessary) from the Cutbush case given the police connections.
I think Sir Melville might have been capable of something like that, but first one has to find what it was he was covering-up!! In the meantime, I adhere to the simpler explanation - that he represented on paper what he thought nd that what he wrote can be taken at face value.
Hope this clears up any confusion.
Phil |
David Cartwright
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 14, 2005 - 5:50 pm: |
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Hi Phil.
I should have caught up with you elsewhere, and told you of the post. I'm sorry about that.
With regard to Macnaghten, message received and understood.
Thanks Phil.
DAVID C. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4557
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 5:07 pm: |
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Hi Andy
I'm not familiar with Lonsdale. I've found a John H Lonsdale, law student in 1881. In 1871 and 61 he was living with his father, John J Lonsdale, Canon of Lichfield.This snippet from a "Times" item about a Lichfield meeting would seem to suggest that the Bishop was JH Lonsdale's grandfather.
OCT 16th 1856
Robert |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 850
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 5:25 pm: |
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Thank-you, Robert. Can you tell me where the law student Lonsdale was living in 1881? He seems to be our man: the grandson of the bishop of Lichfield (and former Principal of King's College, London) and the son of the a clergyman. This explains our Lonsdale's career change!
BTW -- is this from the Times?
Andy S. |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4558
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 6:02 pm: |
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Hi Andy
The census info's from Ancestry.
In 1861 he was living at 4 Chester Place, St Pancras.
In 1871 he was at The Close, Lichfield. Father John, mother Sarah, plus siblings etc.
By 1881 he'd left home and was lodging at 56 Oxford Terrace, Marylebone.
In 1891 he was at Wall Vicarage, Wall, Lichfield with wife Katharine and one year old son John. He is now a clerk in holy orders.
In 1901 he is at Rectory Cottage, Parsonage St, Fontmell Magna, Dorset. He is a clergyman Church of England and his middle name is given as Henry. He has wife Katharine and son Arthur 9 and daughter Katharine 5. No sign of John.
Throughout, the census info consistently suggests a birthdate c. 1856, St Pancras.
Robert |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4559
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 6:13 pm: |
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Andy, I think you have access to the "Times"? Canon Lonsdale's obit is April 10th 1907.
Robert |
Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 851
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 7:18 pm: |
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Thanks again, Robert. Any info on the circumstances of our Lonsdale's death? His father's obit says that he lost his only son a short time ago, so our John H. Lonsdale must have died in 1907 or 1906, which would make him about 50. I didn't find anything in the Times.
At any rate, he didn't stay at Wimborne long. He arrived in 1887 upon his ordination and by 1891 was at Lichfield.
Andy S.
(Message edited by aspallek on June 15, 2005) |
Robert Charles Linford
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Robert
Post Number: 4561
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 15, 2005 - 7:50 pm: |
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Andy, I couldn't find anything in the "Times" but this must be him in Free BMD.
March quarter 1903 age 47 Shaftesbury 5a 147
This is Free BMD's info on Shaftesbury :
Shaftesbury
Created 1st July 1837.
Sub-districts : Fontmell; Gillingham; Shaftesbury.
GRO volumes : VIII (1837-51); 5a (1852-1930).
Alcester, Ashmore, Bourton (from 1895), Buckhorn Weston (from 1895), Cann, Compton Abbas, East Orchard, East Stour, Fontmell Magna, Gillingham, Iwerne Minster, Kington Magna (from 1895), Margaret Marsh, Melbury Abbas, Motcombe, Shaftesbiry, Silton (from 1895), Stour Provost, Sutton Waldron, Todbar, West Orchard, West Stour.
Registers now in North Dorset district
Robert
(Message edited by Robert on June 15, 2005) |
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