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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1965
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 5:36 pm: | 
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I have traced the listing in 1871 for Druitt at Winchester College - Warden's House, St. Mary's College, to be exact. Below is a full list of the scholars, including MJD, in 1871:
Montague Druitt in 1871 census
Warden's House
St. Mary's College, Winchester
Head: Godfrey B. Lee aged 54 - Clergyman, Warden of Winchester College
Pupils of Warden's House
Charles P Lucas 17
Walter G Drake 18
George Raynor 18
Frederick Nevill 17
John Moyle 18
Regainald Antrobus 17
George Buckle 16
Russell Day 17
Richard Maxwell 17
Henry Talbot 17
George Bower 16
Philip Fernandez 17
John Todd 18
William Crace 16
Arthur Gossett 16
Fred Church 16
John Bain 16
Willoughby Parr 17
Edward Mitford 17
Francis Nash 15
James Smith 16
Arthur Carpenter 16
John Hewett 16
William Gorton 15
Thomas Hampson 15
Herbert Bradley 15
Campbell Tracy 15
Edward Jennings 15
George Vincent 15
Edward Cook 13
Arthur Collard 16
Montague J Druitt 13
Francis Phillips 13
Thomas Bird 14
George Hawker 14
Edwin Vidal 12
James Tombs 13
George Trevelyan 12
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 620
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 8:03 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
Nice work again (as with the new census appearance of D'Onston on another thread).
I am looking over those names and trying to figure out whom would Monty have been nearest to in his school classes. It looks like this:
Age 12:
Edwin Vidal
George Trevelyan
Age 13:
Edward Cook
Montague J. Druitt
Francis Phillips
James Tombs
Age 14:
Thomas Bird
George Hawker
Age 15:
Francis Nash
William Gorton
Thomas Hampson
Herbert Bradley
Campbell Tracy
Edward Jennings
George Vincent
Age 16:
George Buckle
George Bower
William Crace
Arthur Gossett
Fred Church
John Bain
James Smith
Arthur Carpenter
John Hewitt
Arthur Collard
Age 17:
Charles P. Lucas
Frederick Nevill
Regainald Antrobus
Russell Day
Richard Maxwell
Henry Talbot
Phillip Fernandez
Willougby Parr
Edward Mitford
Age 18:
Walter G. Drake
George Raynor
John Moyle
John Todd
Looking over the names I wonder if George Trevelyan could be of the family of George Macauley Trevelyan and George Otto Trevelyan.
Is Edward Mitford a relative of Jessica and Nancy
Mitford?
Jeff |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1972
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 9:11 am: |
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The Mitford name caught my eye as they were such a famous (infamous?) family.
Who were the two Trevelyans you mention?
All the best
Chris |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1973
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 9:37 am: |
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Looking for some details of his near contemporaries:
Edwin Vidal.
In 1881 was back living with his parents, George and Emma Vidal, at Cornborough House, Abbotsham, Devon. His father is listed as "Magistrate Devon and Somerset, Barrister Not in Practice. Edwin himself is simply listed, aged 22, as B.A. Cambridge.
It gets interesting when we get to 1891. Edwin Vidal went into the law and in 1891 is listed lodging at No 3, King's Bench Walk. His details are listed as:
Edwin D.S. Vidal aged 32 born Bideford, Devon - Barrister at Law
By 1901, Vidal, still unmarried, had returned to Devon and was lodging with a farmer named Henry Cloak at a place called Fremington.
His details are given as follows:
Edwin D.S. Vidal aged 43 born Abbotsham, Devon - Barrister, income from private sources. The word Solicitor is written in over the top.
I wonder by how much, if any, his time at King's Bench walk overlapped that spent there by Druitt.
Chris |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1974
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 10:04 am: |
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James S Tombs - Druitt's exact contemporary agewise at Winchester - went on to become a schoolmaster.
He is listed in 1881 as a master at St. Paul's College, High Street, Stony Stratford, Buckinghamshire. His details are listed as follows:
James S.O. Tombs aged 23 born Llaustadwell, Pembrokeshire - Schoolmaster
This is the same place of birth as given in the Winchester listing for 1871.
By 1891 he had become headmaster of a Grammar School in Wales and had married. The address for that year is Grammar School House, Dew Street, Haverfordwest, Pembrokeshire. He and his wife are listed as follows:
James Stephen Owen Tombs aged 33 born Llanstadwell, Pembroke - Headmaster Grammar School
Wife: Mary Sanderson Tombs aged 33 born St Peters, Cheshire
In 1901 Tombs was in the same position at the same school. By this time he and his wife had produced six children.
Chris |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 1864
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 10:21 am: |
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Fascinating census information,Chris.
Yes,I wonder did they know each other in Kings Bench Walk?
Natalie |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1975
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 10:24 am: |
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Edward T Cook born Brighton
Again Druitt's exact contemporary in age. In 1881 he was living with his family at 11 Lansdowne Place, Lewisham, London. From a strongly legal background, he studied law himself. Family is listed in 1881 as follows:
Head: Emily Cook (Widow) aged 61 born Ipswich
Children:
Charles A aged 31 born Brixton - Barrister at Law M.A. in actual practice
Alfred M aged 27 born Greenwich - Public schoolmaster M.A.
Edward T born Brighton aged 23 - Student of Law B.A.
Mary A aged 18 born Brighton
Emily A aged 22 born Brighton
However, Cook changed his occupation as in 1891 he is listed as follows:
6 Tavistock Square, St Pancras, London
Head: Edward T Cook aged 33 born Brighton - Journalist / Author
Wife: Emily Cook aged 34 born London
We learn his unusual middle name from the 1901 listing:
61 Bloomsbury Square, Bloomsbury, London
Head: Edward Tyas Cook aged 43 born Brighton - Journalist and Author
Wife: Emily C Cook aged 43 born Pimlico
There are still no children listed.
Chris
(Message edited by Chris on May 01, 2005) |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1976
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 10:42 am: |
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It seems that Edward Tyas Cook went on to become a well known writer who was eventually knighted. He seems particularly noted for a biography of Florence Nightingale and a study on Ruskin. His diaries are deposited in the Bodleian Library. In 1888 he published A Popular hanbook to the National Gallery.
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 621
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 1:37 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
Time destroys as many reputations as it builds up. Here we are striving to find details about that shadow called Monty Druitt, and we have forgotten the historians, George Otto Trevelyan and George Macauley Trevelyan.
At the turn of the 20th Century, George Otto Trevelyan was the acknowledged British expert on the political background of the American Revolution. He wrote a multi-volume history of the Revolutions that was definitive for decades. However, it is now discredited in part because he took a "Whiggish" attitude. If you recall, Lord North and his supporters were mostly Tories. It was Trevelyan's point of view that their policies were reactionary because they were corrupt Tories, not future-seeing Whigs. That Whigs could be equally corrupt escaped his attention. However he is still read by historians of the Revolution, even if more balanced accounts have appeared (paging Sir Lewis Namier on Georgian politics).
George Macauley Trevelyan was George Otto's son (I believe). His specialty was Stuart England.
I have a volume of the letters of Nancy Mitford. The index does not mention any cousin named Edward.
"Talbot" and "Nevill" ["Neville"] are old British landed aristocracy names. "Collard" suggests a French background. Willoughby Parr shares (with Monty) the most unfortunate first name of any of the boys at the school.
Jeff |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1979
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 3:47 pm: |
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Hi Jeff
Can't see any immediate link.
Of the two you mention, George Macaulay Trevelyan was born in Stratford on Avon and George Otto Trevelyan was born in Rothley, Cheshire. The Trevelyan listed in Monty's school census is noted as follows:
George R Trevelyan aged 12 born Colverton, Bucks |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1980
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, May 01, 2005 - 3:55 pm: |
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double checking with 1901 the name is George P Trevelyan and he was born in Wolverton, Bucks. In 1901 he was a Church of England clergyman living in Great Malvern, Worcestershire.
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Phil Hill
Inspector
Username: Phil
Post Number: 426
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 5:26 am: |
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Parr is also an old aristocratic name - Catherine Parr was Henry VIII's last wife. I think the family were also active at the time of the Wars of the Roses.
By the way, Willoughby would not have been perceived as an unfortunate name in 1888. Does not Marianne's beau in Sense and Sensibility bear the same name? |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 373
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 7:17 am: |
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Hello Chris, and Jeff, Phil & all,
GEORGE OTTO TREVELYAN was father of GEORGE MACAULAY TREVELYAN. Otto's wife was a CAROLINE PHILIPS from Stratford-upon-Avon, and his own mother was sister of Lord MACAULAY.
There were two TREVELYAN families. Both baronets.
One -the Georges one- hailed from Northumberland,
and was created for GEORGE OTTO'S father in 1874.
The Winchester contemporary of MJD was GEORGE MACAULAY TERVELYAN.(See Debrett's Peerage 1886).
The WALTER BLACKETT TREVELYAN, a fellow occupant of 9 Kings Bench Walk with MJD, was from the older, Nettlecombe in Somerset Trevelyan family hailing back to 1661.(He was a grandson of the baronets second son).
All very interesting... BUT...for my money, I am more interested in MJD's other contemporary, FRANCIS PHILLIPS.
Firstly, you will note GEORGE MACAULAY TREVELYAN, the other contemprary with MJD at Winchester,had as his mother a CAROLINE TREVELYAN nee PHILIPS*.
A fellow occupant of 9 Kings Bench Walk at least in the 1886 Kellys post office directory, was a certain JOSEPH PHILLIPS about whom I know naught.
Except that he graduated from the Inner Temple in 1882, and resided (in 1886), at 9 Clifton Villas, Warwick Road, West London.
Would some clever Census expert please dig up the details on JOSEPH PHILLIPS and perhaps FRANCIS PHILLIPS?
*[ Note: CAROLINE PHILIPS had only one "L" in her maiden name].
Well done Chris Scott for obtaining the Winchester list. |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1981
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 12:02 pm: |
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Re: Edwin Vidal who lived at 3 King's Bench Walk, here is his profile from the list of Cambridge alumni:
Personal Information
Name: EDWIN DRAKE SEALY VIDAL
College: ST CATHARINE'S
Entered: Michs. 1877
Born: 1858
Died: Jan. 15, 1937
More Information: Adm. pens. at ST CATHARINE'S, June 15, 1877. S. of Edward Urch [formerly Sealy, who assumed the name of Vidal] (Christ Church, Oxford, 1834) [barrister, of Cornborough, near Bideford, Devon] (and Emma Harriet, dau. of Walpole Eyre, Esq., of Weybridge). B. [May 4, 1858], at Abbotsham, Devon. [School, Winchester.] Matric. Michs. 1877; B.A. 1881. Adm. at the Inner Temple, Jan. 16, 1883; migrated to Lincoln's Inn, Jan. 31, 1885. Called to the Bar, May 19, 1886. Dilettante, antiquary and poet. Lived for many years in the Sticklepath, Barnstaple. An acknowledged authority on local history and writer of English and Latin verses. Died, unmarried, Jan. 15, 1937, at Watlington, Oxon. For Vidal family, see Mrs Compton Mackenzie, As Much as I Dare. (Winchester Coll. Reg.; J. A. Venn; Law Lists; Inns of Court; The Times, Jan. 16, 1937.)
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1982
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 12:10 pm: |
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John
the Trevelyan listed at Winchester with Druitt cannot be George Macaulay T. as the middle inital and place of birth are both different. The Trevelyan at Winchester with MJD was George P Trevelyan and was born in Calverton (or Wolverton). In fact, his name was George Philip Trevelyan and he also is listed in the Cambridge alumni as follows:
Personal Information
Name: GEORGE PHILIP TREVELYAN
College: TRINITY
Entered: Michs. 1877
Born: Sept. 14, 1858
More Information: Adm. pens. at TRINITY, May 31, 1877. [3rd] s. of the Rev. William Pitt (Worcester College, Oxford, 1848), of Calverton, Stony Stratford, Bucks. (and Maria, 3rd dau. of the Hon. Philip Pleydell-Bouverie). B. Sept. 14, 1858, at Wolverton, Bucks. School, Winchester. Matric. Michs. 1877; B.A. 1881; M.A. 1884. Ord. deacon (London) 1882; priest, 1883; C. of St Andrew's, Willesden, Middlesex, 1882-4. C. of Bartley Green, Birmingham, 1884-5. V. of St Mary's, Wolverton, Bucks., 1885-97. V. of St Alban's, Aston-juxta-Birmingham, 1897-1900. R. of Carshalton, Surrey, 1901-2. Lic. Pr., dio. of Canterbury, 1902-3; dio. of Gloucester, 1903-5. C. of Churt, Surrey, 1905-8. P.C. of Hindhead, 1908-11. V. of St Stephen's, Bournemouth, 1912-28. Lic. to off., dio. of Salisbury, 1928-37. Married, Apr. 15, 1896, Monica Evelyn Juliet, 3rd dau. of the Rev. Sidney Phillips, V. of Kidderminster. Latterly of 19, Glenmore Road, Salisbury, where he died Feb. 5, 1937; buried at Hindhead. Brother of the next and of William B. (1872). (Winchester Coll. Reg.; Crockford; The Guardian, Apr. 22, 1896; The Times, Feb. 6, 1937.)
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1983
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 12:20 pm: |
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Jeff
here are details of the Winchester Edward Mitford:
Personal Information
Name: Edward. Mitford
College: ST JOHN'S
Entered: Michs. 1871
Died: Kent, June 21, 1948
More Information: Adm. pens. at ST JOHN'S, Oct. 3, 1871. [2nd surviving s. of Edward Ledwich Osbaldeston, of Mitford Castle, Northumberland (Ceylon C.S.) (and Janet, dau. of the Ven. Benjamin Bailey, Archdeacon of Ceylon).] B. Oct. 4, 1853, at Colombo. Bapt. Oct. 31, 1853. School, Winchester. Matric. Michs. 1871; B.A. 1875; M.A. 1878. Ord. deacon (Oxford) Dec. 21, 1876; priest, 1877; C. of Christ Church, Chesham, Bucks., 1876-8. C. of Kidlington, Oxon., 1879-82. V. of Muston, Yorks., 1882-8. V. of Hunmanby, 1888-1919. R. of Acrise, Kent, 1919-23. Married, Aug. 14, 1878, Annie Maria Louisa, dau. of the Rev. Edward H. Price, V. of Kimbolton, and had issue. Living at Folkestone in 1941. Died at Shepherdswell, Kent, June 21, 1948. (Winchester Coll. Reg.; Burke, L.G.; Crockford; The Times, June 26, 1948.)
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 623
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 8:23 pm: |
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Hi Phil,
Actually "Willoughby" is also the first name of a more current literary figure than Ms Austen's
character in SENSE AND SENSIBILITY. The anti-hero of George Meredith's novel THE EGOIST is Sir Willoughby Patterne. That novel is contermporary with Monty and his mates at Winchester.
You are right about Catherine Parr, but if there was a relationship it would probably be a collateral one. For that matter it could also be Thomas Parr ("Old Parr") who supposedly was born in the reign of King Edward IV (about 1477) and supposedly lived until the reign of King James I (1624). I think there is some marker to him inside Westminster Abbey.
Buckle is another name to give some consideration to. Like Trevelyan it reminds me of a prominent Victorian historian (and like George Otto Trevelyan, one who is no longer read that much). But I have to admit this is like flinging confetti about in order to see if any patterns arise.
I thought I saw a pattern, but it was off by one letter. In 1920 a Captain Arthur Goslett was hanged for the murder of his wife in London. At first I thought it was Arthur Gossett (like the name on the list), but a perusal of my source material (one of Guy Long's books) showed me my mistake. Moreover, the infamous Captain Goslett was born in South Africa in 1875, so it is highly unlikely his father is connected to the contemporaries of Monty.
The Goslett/Gossett similarity was not the only one I noted. "Collard" was the name of one of the victims of Emmanuel Barthelemy (hanged 1855), a Frenchmen who killed at least four men in France and England, and who kept trying to impress people as a revolutionary hero (one of the idiots who thought highly of him was Victor Hugo, who wrote an undeserved tribute to him in LES MISERABLES). Barthelemy killed two men in 1854 in some type of attempted blackmail scheme that did not work out. One of them was a wealthy man named Moore, whom Barthelemy killed in his home. In trying to flee Barthelemy was stopped by a Mr. Collard, whom he did not hesitate to shoot. Collard identified Barthelemy before he died. But I don't know much more about that Mr. Collard.
But judging from the actual identifications of some of the classmates done by Chris so far it looks like the group is just a mixture of schoolboys (which is what we should be expecting). 1871 is seventeen years too early to have a close bearing on the Whitechapel Murders, so it is not too likely that we would find anything really outstanding here. However, the business about the Philipses looks somewhat promising.
Jeff
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Andrew Spallek
Chief Inspector
Username: Aspallek
Post Number: 797
Registered: 5-2003
| | Posted on Monday, May 02, 2005 - 9:35 pm: |
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Interesting about Vidal at 3 KBW. No. 3 is the other end of the square from No. 9 but if they were old school chums they might have seen one another from time to time.
I wonder if Cook's diaries go back as far as his days at Winchester. If so, they could shed some additional light on Druitt's early years.
Andy S. |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 624
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 03, 2005 - 8:30 pm: |
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Hi all
If anyone is still interested, the historian named "Buckle" was Henry Buckle (d.1862) who attempted to write a historical synthesis comparing four countries and their growth and developement. It was quite a successful work in it's day, but almost as soon as it's author died (without completing it) serious scholars began tearing it down. Apparently Buckle could not get his terminology exact enough for what he planned. There is an interesting biographical discussion of him in the 1911 Encyclopedia Britannica. Unfortunately he does not appear to have married, and he does not seem to have any connection with Winchester. It is not too difficult to acquire second hand editions of his work. It is entitled THE HISTORY OF CIVILIZATION.
Jeff |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1996
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 10:15 am: |
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Fellow pupils of MJD listed in 1871 who went to Cambridge and for whom biographical details are available in the Cambridge University Alumni listing
George Sydney Raynor
Richard Ponsonby Maxwell
Henry Thomas Talbot
Edward Allvey Jennings
If anyone wants details on any of the above, let me know |
Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 627
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, May 04, 2005 - 8:56 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
Check into Geoge Sydney Raynor. I am curious about any siblings, offspring, or nephews.
The others don't ring any possible bells, though that "Ponsonby" in Maxwell's name is suggestive of a family of high level royal secretaries.
Jeff |
Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1998
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 2:40 am: |
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Name: George Sydney. Raynor
College: ST JOHN'S
Entered: Michs. 1871
More Information: Adm. pens. at ST JOHN'S, May 19, 1871. [Eldest] s. of [the Rev.] George (above) (and Margaret). B. Oct. 9, 1852, at Lythe, Yorks. [School, Winchester.] Matric. Michs. 1871; Scholar, 1874; B.A. (21st Classic) 1875; M.A. 1878. Cricket ‘blue,’ 1872. Ord. deacon (Lichfield) 1876; priest, 1877. Assistant Master at Repton School, 1875-8. ‘Coaching’ at Sutton Court, Chiswick, 1878-81. Head Master of Kensington foundation School, 1881-6. Head Master of the Naval Academy, Gosport, 1886-7. Married, Sept. 5, 1878, Harriet Francis, 2nd dau. of W. G. Cursham, of Wilford, Notts. Died Sept. 1, 1887, in London. Father of Leonard G. S. (1899); brother of the next and of Arthur G. S. (1882). (Winchester Coll. Reg.; Scott, MSS.; Boase, III. 59; Eagle, XV. 103; Crockford; The Guardian, Sept. 7, 1887.)
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1999
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 2:42 am: |
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Name: Richard Ponsonby. Maxwell
College: ST JOHN'S
Entered: Michs. 1872
Born: Oct. 21, 1853
Died: May 23, 1928
More Information: Adm. pens. at ST JOHN'S, Oct. 10, 1872. Of Londonderry, Ireland. [Only] s. of the Rev. Charleton (1840), R. of Leckpatrick [and Emily]. B. [Oct. 21, 1853], at Leckpatrick. Bapt. Nov. 23, 1853. School, Winchester. Matric. Michs. 1872; Scholar; B.A. 1876. With his father in Paris when the Franco-German War broke out in 1870. Entered the Foreign Office in 1877; Acting Third Secretary at Constantinople, 1880; assisted the British Agent on Behring Sea Arbitration, Paris, 1893. Private Secretary to Sir T. H. Sanderson, 1894-6. Secretary to the British Plenipotentiaries at Peace Conference, The Hague, 1899. Acting Secretary of Legation, 1899; Acting Senior Clerk, 1900. Senior Clerk to the Foreign Office, 1902. C.B., 1903. Gold Staff Officer at the Coronation of King George V, 1911. Retired 1913, but returned to his diplomatic work during the War of 1914-19. An expert in solving acrostics and other literary puzzles, and achieved remarkable success in working out the meaning of communications in cipher or in secret language in the ‘agony column’ of The Times. Of Birdstown, Co. Donegal. Died May 23, 1928, in London. (Winchester Coll. Reg.; Eagle, XLV. 22; The Times, May 26 and 30, 1928.)
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2000
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 2:44 am: |
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Name: HENRY THOMAS TALBOT
College: ST JOHN'S
Entered: Michs. 1872
Born: Feb. 14, 1854
Died: July 29, 1887
More Information: Adm. pens. at ST JOHN'S, Apr. 27, 1872. S. of Frederick, solicitor, of Newbury (and Caroline). B. [Feb. 14, 1854], at Speen, Berks. Bapt. Apr. 30, 1854. [School, Winchester.] Matric. Michs. 1872; Scholar, 1874; B.A. (18th Wrangler) 1876; M.A. 1883. Adm. a Solicitor, 1882; practised at Lincoln's Inn Fields. Died July 29, 1887. (Winchester Coll. Reg.; Eagle, XV. 103.)
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Chris Scott
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Chris
Post Number: 2001
Registered: 4-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 2:45 am: |
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Name: Edward Allvey. Jennings
College: CLARE
Entered: Michs. 1874
Born: Oct. 18, 1855
More Information: Adm. at CLARE, Oct. 7, 1874. [Elder s. of Edward Billett, of Burton-on-Trent, solicitor, and Margaret, née Gilbert. B. Oct. 18, 1855. School, Winchester.] Matric. Michs. 1874; B.A. (Class. Trip., 1st Class) 1878. Adm. at the Inner Temple, Jan. 11, 1877. Called to the Bar, Apr. 12, 1880. On the Oxford Circuit. Died Mar. 4, 1932, in London. (Winchester Coll. Reg.; Scott, MSS.; Inns of Court; Law Lists; Foster, Men at the Bar; The Times, Mar. 5, 1932.)
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Jeffrey Bloomfied
Chief Inspector
Username: Mayerling
Post Number: 628
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 05, 2005 - 9:38 pm: |
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Hi Chris,
Fascinating details, especially Ponsonby's diplomatic (and cryptographic) career in the government. The 1893 Behring Sea Controversy was between the U.S., Canada, and Britain, and it actually was not settled until 1900. It's settlement was another step in the gradual distancing of modern Canada from Britain, because (for diplomatic reasons) the British Government decided to not back Canadian seal and whale rights in the Bering Sea over American, and the Laurier Government in Canada did not like that abandonment. The 1900 Hague diplomatic matter was the first of two peace conventions (the next one was in 1907) which involved the great powers trying to find ways to limit the possibility of warfare between them. It did succeed in setting up the International Tribunal at the Hague, but otherwise was a failure. For an account see Barbara Tuchman's section on the two meetings in THE PROUD TOWER.
Ponsonby must have been working closely with Sir Julian Pauchforte (head of the delegation) at the 1900 meeting.
Raynor still interests me, although I see he died in 1887. I wonder if he is related at all to Horace Raynor, the young man who murdered William Whiteley (the department store tycoon) in 1907.
Talbot pursued a legal career like Monty, though as a solicitor (he went to Lincoln Inn, not the one Monty went to). Raynor went into teaching. And both died in 1887. I wonder how close they were with Monty.
Jeff |
Jonathan Hall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, September 30, 2005 - 3:31 pm: |
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This is my first posting on the boards but I have some information.
Firstly Edwin Vidal. This is the younger brother of Robert Walpole Sealy Vidal, born Cornborough House, Abbotsham, N.Devon 1853, ed. Westminster Sch. & Christchurch,Oxford.
One of the most famous footballers of his time he played in the first ever FA Cup Final for the victorios Wanderers team. He also played for the Oxford University teams who played in the 1873 & 1874 Finals winning the latter. He became Vicar of Abbotsham in 1881, changed his name back to Sealy in 1892 and died in 1914.
John Bain and Phillip Fernandez were also regular members of the O.U. football teams of the period 1875-77 and both played in the 1877 FA Cup Final. Bain played for England against Scotland in the same month.
W.E Rawson, C.E.B. Nepean & W.A.S.Mereweather who all had their M.A. conferred at the same ceremony in Oxford in July 1880 when MJD received his BA were also regular members of the OU footballteam . Nepean played in the 1874 Final with Vidal, & Rawson inthe 1877 Final. Rawson captained England in the International which John Bain played.
Francis Phillips appears to be the FAT Phillips who played for OU in the 1880 Cup Final.
Now we come to Sir Charles Warren's regiment the Royal Engineers and their footballteam. Composed almost exclusively of ex public schoolboys they appeared in many of the FA Cup Finals of the 1870's. Their players would have been well known to the OU footballers & many also must have known Warren. Rawson's brother and fellow International was in the RE team.
The second youngest of the Vidal brothers, William Sealy Vidal, born 1861 joined the RE and was a regular member of their football team between 1878-85 playing with the likes of Cecil Vernon ( later Brigadier ) Wingfield-Stratford. This last was also in the England team of 1877.
Playing with these two on a few occasions in the RE team in FA Cup ties between 1880-1883 is a certain E. Druitt. I don't know if he has any connection with MJD's family or not.
All the above players would have been well known to that most famous of Old Etonian footballers the Hon. AF Kinnaird which links us into the highest strata of soceity but I'll leave him for a further posting.
Lastly in the Vidal household at Cornborough House there was for many years in the first half of the century a family of servants called Kelly, inc. in the 1841 census a Mary Ann Kelly age 15.
Please let me know if anybody wants more details on any of the above. |
Natalie Severn
Assistant Commissioner
Username: Severn
Post Number: 2484
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 5:04 pm: |
|
Jonathan,
Many Thanks for this intriguing information on our upper crust 19th/20th century sportsmen and a connection to a Druitt.
Re Mary Kelly-the name is so common It wont tell us much esp since the woman in question would have been much too old to have been the Millers Ct Mary.Still maybe one of her offspring?
Natalie |
John Ruffels
Inspector
Username: Johnr
Post Number: 467
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 02, 2005 - 6:05 pm: |
|
Hello Jonathan,
Congratulations on your first posting and the information you have brought to the boards.
I had no idea the earliest Association Football greats were public school boys! Interesting.
I wonder if the July, 1880 list you quote as having Montague Druitt graduating at Oxford is very large.(You cite others receiving their M.A.'s)? Only those who graduated with MJD.
If not too large could you copy /paste it here? And provide the reference for the source please?
The minute I read a reference to Royal Engineers, my mind immediately turned to Montague Druitt's younger brother, Captain Edward Druitt.Who was a handy cricketer too.
He is most likely, the "E.Druitt" you have discovered. Can you please provide the source-reference for that information too please?
So little is known of JTR suspect Montague Druitt's actual life, any peripheral family colour helps to fill in the landscape.
Try the "Search" facility on the Left of the Message Boards to find out more about Edward Druitt.Thanks Jonathan.Did you know MJD was Secretary of not just the Blackheath Cricket Club but also, after its amalgamation, the Blackheath Cricket, Hockey and Football Club?
CHRIS SCOTT: My sincere apologies for completely missing your advice on incorrect Trevelyan genealogy I had posted. I was not miffed .I had just miffed your posting (in the Elizabethan sense!).Thanks Chris. |
Jonathan Hall
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, October 03, 2005 - 4:43 pm: |
|
Thanks Natalie
The ref to Mary Kelly was said 'tongue in cheek',I certainly don't read anything into it.
Thanks John.
The point is that in the early days of football from the 1860s thro' to 1880s this was purely an ex public schoolboy sport and further restricted to just a handful of schools- mainly Eton, Harrow,Forest School, Winchester,Charterhouse,Shrewsbury and a few more.They all knew one another.
The full list of MAs etc. is from the Times newspaper report on this site.
In the 1980s the Association of Football Statisticians issued a series of booklets with full team details for all the important matches played from formation of FA onwards inc. the early years of the FA Cup. This info taken from Colingdale Newspaper Library. This is one of my sources.
It is important not to think of football in modern day terms as the pool of players was quite small and formed a sporting elite.
I do know the Blackheath info. and this club broke away from the FA in late 1860s to play the handling code. The great AE Stoddart was of course amember in 1888 the year he took over the captaincy of the English team in the Antipodes after the origonal captain drowned.
However I'm interested in the Royal Engineers conection, could you tell me when Sir Charles Warren was at Woolwich and what his duties were there? Thanks
t |
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